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I'm not on the fence: if people hate positionals, play any of the other classes in the game that don't have them the jobs should have their complexity in wildly different enough spaces that there's something for everybody (and ideally something in every role for everybody), but there's no need to make everything for everybody
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Jul 15, 2022 03:50
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Griz posted:recent dungeon bosses also let you drag things on for way too long as a solo tank and i'm not really a fan of this I haven't noticed a difference between old and new dungeons in this regard, but yeah, leveling tank has made it very obvious which bosses have decent wipe options and which don't. I got the last Stormblood dungeon in roulette last night, and it turns out that there doesn't seem to be a way to wipe on the final DPS check as solo tank besides just waiting for the cast to finish. (obvs you can't actually clear it) I was the only person alive for that DPS check twice and apologized to everyone the second time.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:51
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Not every job needs to be simple nor does every job needs to be for everyone. Yeah like what the hell is wrong with how ast is now? The cards got simplified (which I didn't mind), the sects got nixed for simplicity (again not a bad change) but ast feels fine now
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Jul 15, 2022 03:54
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Also please stop loving with AST holy poo poo, it was horrible for the first 3 months of ShB after the last Major Rework and barely became playable in that until EW where they're actually in a really good space right now. This is part of what really gets me. I think all the healers suck, and have written tons of words about it, but AST is actually considered a good design right now by people who do enjoy XIV's healing paradigm. So why on earth pick that healer to rework? Same applies to DRG, really. I can't think of anything broken enough to call for "rework" level changes. Or anything broken at all. Maybe integrating the two 120s cooldowns, and life surge could be integrated into the main weaponskill you use it with, but that's about it. Wouldn't call that anything remotely like a rework.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:54
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cheetah7071 posted:I'm not on the fence: if people hate positionals, play any of the other classes in the game that don't have them Yeah there's no real opportunity cost for swapping classes, so there's no real reason to simplify to broaden a class's appeal. There's no way to equalize how many people are playing every class.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:55
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It sucks rear end and leads down to the road of how every class in wow is 3 buttons plus cooldowns and a proc button, things shouldnt be so homogenized!!!
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Jul 15, 2022 03:58
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I really wonder if they saw the success of the SMN rework and took the completely wrong lessons from it's success (and it is a success by metrics, make no mistake - new-SMN gets a ton of play). DRG isn't at all in the same position as old-SMN.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:00
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Corbeau posted:e: I'm trying to think of a class that feels better in EW compared to ShB. Well, except for BLM. Obviously. Most of the new stuff felt to me like pretty redundant buttons with flashy animations attached, and what good came from the expansion turnover was primarily in adding little bits of QoL to old buttons. I've played nearly all of them at this point. Off the top of my head... Better: BLM AST SMN (albeit through full revamp) MNK WAR (to the point where it's a problem, seriously, nerf this fucker) NIN Worse: RDM (not actively worse but feels slightly more awkward) Everything else I either don't remember enough about from ShB to be sure, or came out about the same. As for the new jobs, RPR feels good from 70-90 but barely functional before then, and Sage has a fundamental UX issue in that the barriers they're meant to be constantly making GBS threads out take more buttons to use than their heals but are otherwise fine. Everything is fine unless you loved SMN's five minute rotation. Frankly I'm worried about DRG and AST's revamps, because neither feels in great need of anything huge, so the fact they're both getting something so big they had to delay it is concerning, especially to me as an AST main that was a SCH main until Shadowbringers.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:03
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Corbeau posted:I genuinely don't think it's quite this simple, though it's a definitely an influence. I think they don't have enough people, and thus enough mental energy with which to develop new ideas, working on class design. I'm sure that I'm blanking a bit, but BLM is the only class that I can think of that got a particularly impactful brand new tool in EW. And they keep adding new classes every expansion. If you keep adding design burden without adding more designers, something has to give. More or less, yeah. A lot of jobs just got another instance of thing they already had bolted on and then some qol stuff that really shouldn't have been gatekept by a level requirement. Looking directly at you, samurai with your dumbass third midare every 120 seconds and your cone aoe becoming a circle at 82 when it should have been that by default. I really wish they didn't feel contractually obligated to fill 10 levels with new stuff. But then I also wish they would stop adding new jobs so they could better develop the ones we've got and my current biggest gripe with the game is their unwillingness to go back and adjust the levels you get certain things at to make jobs feel less like rubbish sub 50. Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 04:10
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Cleretic posted:I've played nearly all of them at this point. Off the top of my head... i agree with this except RDM feels better because they made the melee combo require 50 mana so you don't have to spend it right away and also manafication is better
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Jul 15, 2022 04:14
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anyways I think a drg rework in 7.0 is reasonable not because drg particularly needs one but because there's just nothing left to add in the current paradigm. 7.0 dragoon will sort of have to play either identically or wildly differently from 6.0 dragoon; I can't see any way it could be only moderately different
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Jul 15, 2022 04:16
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Not every job needs to be simple nor does every job needs to be for everyone.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:22
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Cleretic posted:WAR (to the point where it's a problem, seriously, nerf this fucker) I'm sorry no, this thought alone shows you have no loving clue how balance works at all.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:25
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Badger of Basra posted:i agree with this except RDM feels better because they made the melee combo require 50 mana so you don't have to spend it right away and also manafication is better RDM just comes down to me liking how the mana numbers were in ShB. There's less aesthetic appeal in using 50 mana for the combo than 80, it feels weird that about half of the bar is overflow now, and Veraero/Verthunder don't feel like they give enough mana. Basically I like RDM less now because of pure aesthetic goodfeels. It's still my DPS main, I just preferred it in ShB.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:27
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Corbeau posted:I really wonder if they saw the success of the SMN rework and took the completely wrong lessons from it's success (and it is a success by metrics, make no mistake - new-SMN gets a ton of play). DRG isn't at all in the same position as old-SMN. God I hope not, New SMN is so loving boring to play.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:29
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Cleretic posted:RDM just comes down to me liking how the mana numbers were in ShB. There's less aesthetic appeal in using 50 mana for the combo than 80, it feels weird that about half of the bar is overflow now, and Veraero/Verthunder don't feel like they give enough mana. It's to make getting multiple melee combos in a row more intuitive. As a Samurai player, Samurai felt really good until they removed Kaiten and hosed with the numbers on big button. Now it's still good, because Namikiri is a rad button and doesn't seriously impact gameplay. But it's missing the feel of Kaiten heavily.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:35
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It's me, the RDM rezzing all the dead alliances and forcing you to hobble through a raid boss. I will never stop RDMing. You can't make me.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:43
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Job design peaked in Stormblood.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:48
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SCH got significantly better in EW just because the fairy is no longer as janky, and fairy actions now queue. It's in a really good spot.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:51
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Axel Serenity posted:It's me, the RDM rezzing all the dead alliances and forcing you to hobble through a raid boss. The worst part of doing this is that you only get one commend afterwards.
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Jul 15, 2022 04:54
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The BRD changes were massive for making their AOE functionally good for once, so they become fun to play in dungeons instead of a terrible brain exercise, at least.
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Jul 15, 2022 05:01
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WrightOfWay posted:Job design peaked in Stormblood. SB MCH my beloved...
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Jul 15, 2022 05:03
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Cleretic posted:The worst part of doing this is that you only get one commend afterwards. More than I usually get when I Rez Mage.
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Jul 15, 2022 05:03
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Kinda wonder if we’ll ever get a DoT-heavy job again
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Jul 15, 2022 05:12
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Nope. DoTs are jank, and there never was a DoT heavy job to begin with.
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Jul 15, 2022 05:26
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Regalingualius posted:Kinda wonder if we’ll ever get a DoT-heavy job again I could see that being a place for Chemist if they were inclined to it. A bunch of DoTs of varying lengths for added complexity, SMN's old skills to renew/propagate them, and skills with extra effects based on what you've laid down. I don't really know if there's a greater mechanical/design problem with DoTs like there is with pets, but I could picture a fun design based largely around 'keep a million plates spinning for good payoffs'.
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Jul 15, 2022 05:30
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What if they plan to divorce the time-mage aspects away from AST in preparation for making an actual Time Mage and just doubling down on the AST card theme? S.J. fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 05:44
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I think that a dot/debuff class could be a good place to put a caster with a Bard/Dancer damage profile recently. Something to actually compliment Machinist as a selfish DPS by having a caster (and melee) who adds a lot of damage to the party, or even an individual ally. In the case of dot/debuff caster the idea would likely be that your big damage cast is a high potency spell that does damage based on the number of debuffs you have on the boss, and you'd have long cooldown stuff like Mug/Trick Attack. Say a debuff that does (10-30) potency for every weaponskill/ability that hits the afflicted boss for 15 seconds every 2 minutes.
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Jul 15, 2022 05:45
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the appeal of current rdm to me is flexibility. the old combo being locked in at 80/80 meant you had to follow a fairly rigid timeline for fights even when you were learning. this usually meant in phase change-heavy fights like an ultimate you were overcapping near the end of phases to line yourself up for later which isn't... the worst thing in the world, but it did feel bad to do. current rdm doesn't has a lot more flexibility on when it can melee combo, and mainly has to concern itself with lining up its 120s with the rest of the party. there's a lot of occasions in something like P4S where by the time you have a melee combo ready you don't want to use it, because if you hold it for a couple more gcds you can line it up with a movement heavy phase and it just feels really good to do something like Act II or Curtain Call with 100% uptime. that combined with the accel changes to essentially being two more swiftcasts made me fall in love with the current iteration.
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Jul 15, 2022 06:03
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think that a dot/debuff class could be a good place to put a caster with a Bard/Dancer damage profile recently. Something to actually compliment Machinist as a selfish DPS by having a caster (and melee) who adds a lot of damage to the party, or even an individual ally. I feel like DOTs could be a very thematic Time Mage mechanic
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Jul 15, 2022 06:14
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I played Affliction warlock a lot in WoW and it was a lot of fun, but I don't think it would work that well in FF14, for two reasons. The first is the fight structure. DoT classes are just bad at burst, and lots of fights have important "burst the adds" windows. This is also the case in WoW, to be fair, but in WoW you've got ~15 dps and can usually afford one class with a relatively slow ramp time. In FF14 you've got four dps and something like the P3S birds phase would suck when one class takes ~6-7 gcds to ramp up to anything approaching damage, because dots are generally only powerful when they're given adequate time to tick. I just don't think they'd really want to balance fights around "maybe 25% of your dps takes ~15 seconds to come online". The second is the UI. I think a dot heavy job would require some significant UI upgrades to really feel good to play, because juggling plates affliction style would really suck with just the crappy "detach the debuff bar and stick it in the middle of your screen" method of debuff tracking. Also, a lot of the icons are too small to really tell apart well, even with the UI scaled up to maximum, especially if you have vision problems.
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Jul 15, 2022 06:19
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if they just let me apply/spread the two bard dots my simple 'i like dots' brain would be happy honestly. maybe just let the button apply the dot in an aoe if shadowbite is ready or something like that
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Jul 15, 2022 06:25
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super-redguy posted:SCH got significantly better in EW just because the fairy is no longer as janky, and fairy actions now queue. SCH (and WHM) also got significantly better in EW because their basic attack spell was reduced to 1.5 cast time so you can weave something after each one
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Jul 15, 2022 06:27
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Khizan posted:I played Affliction warlock a lot in WoW and it was a lot of fun, but I don't think it would work that well in FF14, for two reasons. It doesn't have to go that hard on DoTs to be a thematic addition, nor do they have to play out exactly like that, but I do understand where you're coming from
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Jul 15, 2022 06:30
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If it doesn't go hard on dots, it's not a dot class. It's just a class with a dot.
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Jul 15, 2022 06:35
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I think Gunbreaker is a job that has a significantly better rotation at 90 compared to 80. It has the same problem as reaper where if you ever get downscaled it feels like your rotation withered into nothing.
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Jul 15, 2022 06:41
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Khizan posted:I played Affliction warlock a lot in WoW and it was a lot of fun, but I don't think it would work that well in FF14, for two reasons. If they did like, an actual dot/debuff based job I imagine it would have a job guage specifically for tracking the timers on your main debuffs cast. This is also why I suggested the debuff oriented thing over just dots, because a debuff oriented burst phase could be Mug style, where you massively increase the damage the target takes. It's not like P3S birds is harder with say, Dancer or Bard, and both of them have a lot of party oriented damage which is what the goal here would be. Dots and Debuffs as a way of making a caster with a similar level of support mechanics (party damage boosting in particular) as Bard/Dancer.
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Jul 15, 2022 07:06
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As long as we're theorycrafting, I want a mage tank. It even fits the DoT/debuff idea if you use Green Mage. ...I only want a mage tank because my main is heavily into magery for RP reasons, and the closest thing to magic tank is Gunbreaker. Or maybe Dark Knight.
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Jul 15, 2022 07:24
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Khizan posted:If it doesn't go hard on dots, it's not a dot class. It's just a class with a dot. ...okay? I didn't say anything like that that I can recall. Even if they did go hard on dots, it doesn't have to look like it did in WoW
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Jul 15, 2022 07:26
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think that a dot/debuff class could be a good place to put a caster with a Bard/Dancer damage profile recently. Something to actually compliment Machinist as a selfish DPS by having a caster (and melee) who adds a lot of damage to the party, or even an individual ally. I mean, this is what old Summoner did with Fester. And it even had stuff that specifically interacted with your DoT timers in Contagion which included Potent Poisoning Potion consumables and the cross classable Thunder at the time. And for a very brief time, Summoner even had an advantage with short-lived adds due to the way damage snapshotting worked with Bane in T12 which allowed them to do ridiculous DoT damage to the boss before it was patched.
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