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We're seeing this exact same argument over in the USA, between people who agree that the Dems are dogshit but that it's ultimately a choice between them or the Republicans and people who think that there's no point at all in voting for a "Things still get worse, just a bit more slowly" option and want to build something different. Dunno if this is just an Anglosphere thing or whether there's similar tensions in other Western nations too.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:37
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Honestly when I saw how Brexit was going I kind if wanted an Acceleration position to exist. Since in my head I thought "if the UK does the hardest possible Brexit, things will go so badly for them that there will be riots on the streets. It will get so bad that they will be forced into backing down." Then the Pandemic happened and over 100,000 people died and the result from the great British people was  If that level of avoidable death amd terrible government wont trigger an Accelerated breakdown of the current situation, than nothing will. It's also a good reason why Scottish Independence and NI Reunionfication are seeming more sensible options.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:38
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Pistol_Pete posted:We're seeing this exact same argument over in the USA, between people who agree that the Dems are dogshit but that it's ultimately a choice between them or the Republicans and people who think that there's no point at all in voting for a "Things still get worse, just a bit more slowly" option and want to build something different. Dunno if this is just an Anglosphere thing or whether there's similar tensions in other Western nations too. Of course, I'm not sure you can even make a solid case that Starmer's Labour will slow the rate at things get worse. They do seem to genuinely share all the meaningful elements of the Tories' ideology.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:39
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Tesseraction posted:I have to admit I am worried about how the country will handle the coming heatwave. We're likely looking at a mass death event that the government is incapable and unwilling to do anything to prevent. And all of this has been known since the time of the LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT and throughout the time of the shiny tories. - There's a pandemic coming, probably respiratory, not if but when - The UK's housing stock sucks for the weather we have now, and needs radical fixing (in part because:) - Even if we do stuff, more extreme weather is inevitable - The above "doing stuff" should involve moving off fossil fuels (and ok, the invasion of Ukraine might not have been obvious in 1997, but then we're into "what if we created a better world for no reason" territory) E: and I think everyone in this thread will make their own calculation at election time, based on all the factors mentioned. But saying at this stage "I will definitely vote Labour no matter what, to keep the Tories out" is just silly. Bobstar fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 11:41
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Tesseraction posted:I have to admit I am worried about how the country will handle the coming heatwave. We're likely looking at a mass death event that the government is incapable and unwilling to do anything to prevent. Yeah but it will only be elderly or vulnerable people so shut the gently caress up and eat an ice cream on the beach
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Jul 15, 2022 11:42
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keep punching joe posted:I seriously doubt that the UK government would just sit on its hands and allow tens of thousands of citizens to die because tackling the problem is too hard. This post is pure doomerism. The UK government wouldn't just "allow" tens of thousands of citizens to die, that much is true. Instead, they will implement policies that actively feed citizens into the insatiable maw of Capital. C.f. the "eat-out-to-help-out" scheme. quote:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-vouchers-idUSKBN27F1IR RandomUserString fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 11:43
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Telegraphs entire readership cooking themselves to death to own the nanny state met office
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Jul 15, 2022 11:51
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Pistol_Pete posted:We're seeing this exact same argument over in the USA, between people who agree that the Dems are dogshit but that it's ultimately a choice between them or the Republicans and people who think that there's no point at all in voting for a "Things still get worse, just a bit more slowly" option and want to build something different. Dunno if this is just an Anglosphere thing or whether there's similar tensions in other Western nations too. I will at least argue that while the Dems are absolute dogshit, the Republican party has become full on fascist. Our Tories suck, and certainly some of them like Braverman and Badenoch would be equally fascist (lol bye Cruella) they are also not going to run the country, and are not the majority of their party. Our right-wing party is proto-fascist but is currently more wedded to noncing and selling the country's silver, the US is on the verge of being Weimar.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:55
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Pistol_Pete posted:I pretty much do support accelerationism at this point. The contrast this week between a country desperate for somebody to do something about the terrible cost of living crisis and a Westminster bubble talking about nothing but who's up or down in the Tory leadership contest and stupid loving culture war nonsense has been giving me real 'Versailles in the 1780's' feelings. It's difficult to look at the current clown show that's UK politics and conclude anything else but that our current system is no longer capable of dealing with, or even acknowledging the mess that we're in. I'm also reflecting that: forget rising living standards; a democracy that can't even provide the most basic security for its citizens in the form of food, housing and energy supplies is not likely to remain a democracy for very long. My thoughts exactly.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:05
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keep punching joe posted:I seriously doubt that the UK government would just sit on its hands and allow tens of thousands of citizens to die because tackling the problem is too hard. 
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Jul 15, 2022 12:05
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Let the bodies pile up in the streets... oh no the plebs have taken to the streets! Quick Carrie, to the diamond-encrusted helicopter.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:06
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Luv 2 huddle like penguins, blitz spirit and that https://twitter.com/bbcnwt/status/1547889941887062016?s=21&t=kW-a9JT4DnELoTq7UT0VBw
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Jul 15, 2022 12:06
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Pistol_Pete posted:We're seeing this exact same argument over in the USA, between people who agree that the Dems are dogshit but that it's ultimately a choice between them or the Republicans and people who think that there's no point at all in voting for a "Things still get worse, just a bit more slowly" option and want to build something different. Dunno if this is just an Anglosphere thing or whether there's similar tensions in other Western nations too. My outlandish theory is we stave off revolution long enough for the US to collapse into civil war, and as we saw during the French and Communist revolutions we get good stuff to try and stop us from following. Things only really started going bad when the USSR collapsed and the government didn't have that external socal(ist) threat to keep them in line.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:11
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Flux Wildly posted:Luv 2 huddle like penguins, blitz spirit and that
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Jul 15, 2022 12:14
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keep punching joe posted:I seriously doubt that the UK government would just sit on its hands and allow tens of thousands of citizens to die because tackling the problem is too hard. This post is pure doomerism. Is this a joke or did you just wake up from a three year nap
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Jul 15, 2022 12:25
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Woke climate fanatics want to ruin YOUR Great British Summer.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:29
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https://twitter.com/TTTMediaXR/status/1547661769644027904
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Jul 15, 2022 12:32
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The situation in the US is that they're once Republican victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating. And if the Dems don't fix the supreme court, the Republicans *will* win 2024, because the court is about to hand the states a license to cheat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANrBplbZsFM
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Jul 15, 2022 12:34
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holy gently caress it's like they're trying to get people killed
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Jul 15, 2022 12:35
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Dabir posted:The situation in the US is that they're once Republican victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating. And if the Dems don't fix the supreme court, the Republicans *will* win 2024, because the court is about to hand the states a license to cheat. Yes but at least the dems don't copy the Republican platform wholesale. Which is an important difference compared to current Labour frontbench.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:40
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Dabir posted:The situation in the US is that they're once Republican victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating. And if the Dems don't fix the supreme court, the Republicans *will* win 2024, because the court is about to hand the states a license to cheat. the supreme court already cheated in recent memory, has everyone forgotten 2000? the democrats have no desire to actually govern they just want their consultant salaries
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Jul 15, 2022 12:40
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I saw some marmite hummus in co op today. 
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Jul 15, 2022 12:43
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Dabir posted:The situation in the US is that they're once Republican victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating. And if the Dems don't fix the supreme court, the Republicans *will* win 2024, because the court is about to hand the states a license to cheat. And it's a moot point because the Democrats (at large, there are outliers) have no interest in fixing the supreme court, don't forget that part.
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Jul 15, 2022 12:48
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Jippa posted:I saw some marmite hummus in co op today. I tried that, it was nasty as That meteorologist interview is incredible. "Hasn't it always been hot?" <names one outlier year, almost 50 years ago> So loving dense. The poo poo that people get spoon fed by presenters on TV is always a shock to me
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Jul 15, 2022 12:55
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tbh at this stage you might as well vote labour because keith has broken every pledge he's ever made and right now he's pledging to be a oval office. Maybe he'll go full circle
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Jul 15, 2022 12:56
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The Political Clownshoe
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Jul 15, 2022 12:57
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Bit late since I left the tab open while replying, but I'm struggling with how I'd vote as well. Realistically the two sides of the argument are: - Do I vote for Labour, essentially rewarding Keith and confirming his theory that us on the left will simply vote for the relatively-left-most of the two major parties, regardless of their actual position on the left/right spectrum, and thus ensuring that the PLP and general neolib Labour Right can point to electoral success as a means to continue their project to turn the Labour party into Red Conservatives and continue on in the spirit of Tony Blair? This might not even result in a Labour win, mind, and it's possible we'll get another Tory government and give Starmer more ammunition to continue the above. - Do I not vote for Labour, and give the Conservatives another majority government and watch as things slowly get worse and worse over the next 5 years again, but potentially give the Labour Right a message that actually no this isn't what we want and nobody is going to vote for you now. This only works if the left unite around doing this though, because the message is diluted more and more as people opt for the other choice. There's also the consideration that honestly they might well just turn that message into "Well clearly Corbyn's legacy has done lasting damage to Labour" and ignore the cratering votes, even if it turned out that they got the worst electoral result in Labour history and all the trade unions abandon them. Honestly I don't know which one to do. Neither are good, you either reward Labour for the Keith Project and solidify neoliberal "something RADICAL must be done! MEANS TESTED 5% VAT DECREASE!" ineffectual bollocks with MAYBE the odd left-wing focus grouped policy sprinkled in if it polls well enough to trick Keith into supporting it, or a Red Tory government... but if I do the other option, can I just stand by and not exercise my ability to at least try to stop Sunak or Mordaunt rocking up and being as evil as BoJo but more effective at it? Short term Conservatives will definitely do more damage, longer term will it have done more damage to implicitly support more New Labour shite? I don't strictly think there's a good answer. I guess like people say, extra-parliamentary political action is the best course of action for true change, and I suppose always has been. Suffrage and the civil rights movement, trade unionism allowing us "luxuries" like weekends and no more child labour, etc. That sort of change requires action outside of the system that's presented to us by government as our way to apply our will, and in fact a large chunk of societal progress has been made from outside of those systems specifically because government excluded certain kinds of people from being able to achieve what they want via the system they provide. Can't vote for women or minorities to get the vote because the majority of those who care... can't vote! Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 13:00
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Chas McGill posted:Woke climate fanatics want to ruin YOUR Great British Summer. Cloud Potato posted:
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Jul 15, 2022 13:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Of course, I'm not sure you can even make a solid case that Starmer's Labour will slow the rate at things get worse. They do seem to genuinely share all the meaningful elements of the Tories' ideology.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:03
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Dabir posted:The situation in the US is that they're once Republican victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating. And if the Dems don't fix the supreme court, the Republicans *will* win 2024, because the court is about to hand the states a license to cheat. I do occasionally wonder, do you think that back in 1900 when the trade unions were deciding to set up a new political party, that people made the same arguments then as they do today? You're splitting the left! What, do you want another Tory government? A liberal government is the lesser evil! I wonder, if we had listened back then, if socialists had stuck by the liberals, would we have an NHS, free at point of use? Would we have gained the various rights and protections for workers which have been steadily eroded by neoliberal governments over the last few decades? Or, would we have instead ended up with a private healthcare system, at will employment? Would we be one Conservative victory away from even the barest pretence of democracy evaporating?
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Jul 15, 2022 13:04
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"Must see" 
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Jul 15, 2022 13:08
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Surprise T Rex posted:Bit late since I left the tab open while replying, but I'm struggling with how I'd vote as well. Realistically the two sides of the argument are: Depending on your seat, it might not even matter. Tories will win where I am. Might as well vote for who I actually want than waste it on labour and feel lovely about it after.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:13
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Surprise T Rex posted:A bloody good post I'm of the same mindset, the difference being that my vote is essentially decided for me. If you look at my constituency's voting history... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingdon_(UK_Parliament_constituency) Just pissing in the wind really, isn't it? I'm especially in agreement of the part where you suggest a failing Labour party at the next election would blame Corbyn as long-lasting damage rather than realising that Diet Tory isn't going to be the slam dunk they want it to be.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:13
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Surprise T Rex posted:Bit late since I left the tab open while replying, but I'm struggling with how I'd vote as well. Realistically the two sides of the argument are: I'm where you are. I loathe Starmer with a vengeance. But I'm in Wales and Welsh Labour are somewhat better than Westminster Labour. I'm torn whether 'get the Tories out by any means necessary' is more important, especially for those much more vulnerable health and/or finances wise than me - than 'get Starmer's Labour a win and have Starmer take it as a seal of approval. (I voted non-Labour - honestly can't remember if I went yellow or green - in 2005 for exact same reason - despite having a wonderful Labour MP - Neil Gerrard who was somewhat in the Michael Foot mold - I couldn't bring myself to vote Labour and have Blair take it as an endorsement. I did write to Neil and tell him why I wasn't voting Labour. Maybe if Walthamstow had been a bit more of a marginal seat I may have held my nose and voted labour). I sometimes wonder whether starting a new party called "None of the above" to stand in elections might work in at least destroying the status quo if people put their x in that box - wittingly or unwittingly.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:14
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FPTP's protection isn't infinite, though. If Labour continues to shrink into a weird little ultra-exclusive cult while screeching that it's everyone else's fault (highly likely), then other political forces (chiefly extraparliamentary, but also eventually parliamentary) will gradually supersede it in power and importance. See also, ScotLab.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:17
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Re: voting chat... If you vote labour you are still voting for the party where half the cabinet defy the whip to join pickets. It depends what is important to you. It isn't invalid to think there's some merit in voting for that. Someone like me, I am struggling to see how I can vote for anyone. I really don't give a gently caress about "punishing" starmer or the plp by not voting for labour, I just want to vote for "not fascism" which leaves me staring blankly at a lib dem ballot box for the second time in my life.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:21
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FPTP works for Labour until the moment a viable alternative exists, and then watch that support crumble in a couple of election cycles. Like in Scotland for example, something like 60 years of domination and now the only way Labour could ever expect to win is by some form of electoral pact with the tories and lib dems based solely around British nationalism. This situation isn't going to change, it's now baked into Scottish politics. PR is the only realistic way Labour could ever return more than a handful of (Scottish) seats in a Westminster election.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:24
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team overhead smash posted:1) Then he should have made his case to be labour leader on what he actually planned to implement and given that rationale for doing so, not lied his arse off and then switched position as soon as he could get away from it. It’s bad from a democratic standpoint of betraying his electorate and from a practical standpoint of looking like a typical lying politician. More generally, the labour right are utterly unwilling to attempt any sort of long term leftward project, they are forever chasing the tories further right when they are in or out of power because they let them set the conversation and then fall over themselves trying to seem hard and serious on tory terms.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:25
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I'm torn whether 'get the Tories out by any means necessary' is more important, especially for those much more vulnerable health and/or finances wise than me This is where I falter a little at the "gently caress you Keith" thing. I'm probably comfortable enough that more years of Tory rule aren't going to meaningfully affect me, but other people don't have that same security. By not voting Labour am I harming them? Keith might do better than we expect for working people (but in a sort of means-tested Blairite sense), and even if not, his policy to knock about 5% off your energy bill will still save a non-zero amount of lives over the next 5 years. Not nearly enough and we could do so much more, but by not voting for his vision of Labour am I just deciding that those people are acceptable casualties in pursuit of (maybe) a mildly improved electoral landscape? Mega Comrade posted:Depending on your seat, it might not even matter. Tories will win where I am. Might as well vote for who I actually want than waste it on labour and feel lovely about it after. I suspect that living under Nadia Whittome's seat, this place will go red regardless. I thought she was alright during her original campaign tbh, but I've been informed by this thread she's melted a bit and I don't really know how she's changed tack over the last few years. e: Also as much as I frame it as not voting just to piss Keith off, it's more than that. It's about the only form of "collective action" we can wield against the Labour party because all we have to offer them is our votes. (Previously we also had our membership to use as collective action, but lol at joining and financially supporting them under this version, just to get a vague chance to try and change it leftward via members voting when the PLP changed the rules on elections to avoid that exact scenario). Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 13:25
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The way I look at it is that my vote is an endorsement of the candidate I vote for, and I’ll only vote for a person/party I’d be happy to vouch for. At the moment the (few) good thing Labour have going for them aren’t enough for me to feel comfortable swallowing the bad ones so they’re not getting my vote. And if they win the election and continue to allow the country to decline and people to suffer, at least it won’t be with my support.
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Jul 15, 2022 13:26
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