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Rinkles posted:Those are decent gains right? Those bumps to minimums will definitely be nice. And peak power draw isn't really that great of a metric, the sustained will certainly be interesting though. Obviously the overarching question is still what Zen 4 does and doesn't have, and potentially when Zen4 3D will actually show up on market for consumers.
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Jul 18, 2022 04:41
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Rinkles posted:Those are decent gains right? not a big boost in average (about 5%) at 1080p and 1440p, but big boosts in minimums. It's 27% faster in 1080p mins and 22% in 1440p mins. In the other benchmark 80% higher in RDR2 1080p mins, and that's a very cpu-intensive game (it's an everything-intensive game). So maybe that's an absolute best case scenario thing. minimums are really important, many people feel moreso than averages, and that was one of the advantages of 5800x3d, the cache really helps it power through dumb bullshit code. Everyone will end up having to run dumb bullshit code at some point, but especially in gaming, gamedevs gonna gamedev and shove some poo poo out the door. Everyone will know it’s bullshit and the studio sucks but you can either run the bullshit code or not play the game. Intel is pulling no punches on the top sku, they're pre-overclocked to the gills, like 5.5 ghz max TVB or something? Yikes that's fast, I guess Intel 7 going pretty well now, like that's actually faster than planar nodes really could do without sub-ambient, that's impressive. so, basically I guess intel cements a little more gaming leadership (alder was very good vs non-X3D zen3 in gaming) and closes one of the 5800X3D's advantages, at the expense of even more titanic power. Based on the average results I'm not sure whether it'll have huge benefits for productivity but I kinda doubt it, productivity usually means throughput-oriented tasks which correspond more to “average” style metrics. if all you want is to game, maybe the 13700k will be more reasonable but this isn't a good package compared to the 5800X3D for gaming imo, the x3d is way way more efficient, frequency-capped zen3 with tons of cache is an efficiency monster for load power (idle is bad tho), iirc it pretty much caps out around 70W and often lower. 5900X3D or 5950X3D probably will dunk on this in most things except for gaming, and they don't have heterogeneous core headaches. still no avx-512 on this, and 7800X3D will probably be coming next spring with avx-512. overall package totally doesn't make sense, 5900X3D or 5950X3D will clown on these in the enthusiast space in terms of sales if AMD does it, and waiting for 7800X3D or 7900X3D isn't going to be all that long anyway. Maybe things will look a bit better when Intel's HEDT rolls around, that should (?) have AVX-512 enabled and no heterogeneous cores, but, HEDT seems to mean big bucks these days. AVX-512 is a box I really want to check on my next desktop processor but again, if the big picture doesn't make sense, zen4 will eventually have a 7900X3D too, even if the general improvement is small avx-512 is a big value-add in RPCS3 emulation etc especially in combination with v-cache I'm sure. I do hope AMD brings out V-cache HEDT at not-insane prices but lol it's not gonna happen. it'll be interesting to note whether there's any warning signs of intel going too large. Yes, they have the deadweight of AVX-512 but even still Intel's got by far the largest p-core (by transistor count) out of intel, amd, and apple. Alder lake is big big big, they went 5-wide decode and tons of execution units and caches, dunno what exactly this is but I would assume pump it up even more. I always wanted to see someone make The Gigacore and now it's kinda mediocre lol. It will be interesting to see some actual reviews with iso-clocks or iso-power for Raptor vs Alder on say SPEC2017, I am curious what that would show. Too bad anandtech imploded, that is something Andrei or Ian would definitely have done in their review. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jul 18, 2022 |
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Jul 18, 2022 05:28
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Paul MaudDib posted:Too bad anandtech imploded. wait what? I hadn't heard about this
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Jul 18, 2022 05:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:wait what? I hadn't heard about this Yup Ian left, Andrei left, I think there may have been one more? Ryan Smith? (not Shrout) But basically everyone who did the content at anandtech whose name you’d know has left over the last year, purch now owns a website and a data set lol
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Jul 18, 2022 05:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:wait what? I hadn't heard about this They have steadily decreased in quality since Anand left for Apple, and recently lost their most prolific writer on their staff. They are kind of sporadically producing seemingly random content lately. efb
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Jul 18, 2022 05:40
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yeah their content is likelier to miss the bottom line value assessment more often than they hit
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Jul 18, 2022 05:46
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Seems like every day, another old tech standby is fading away. Notebookcheck is less notebooks and more smartphones with sponsored content masquerading as articles. Their comparative database is still okay for comparing laptop CPUs/GPUs against eachother, but otherwise the rest of the site is a wash. On that note, Notebookreview.com's forums were also wiped from the face of the earth, because the owners decided they didn't want to keep paying for them anymore. That's actually an outright crime, between decades of notebook hardware hacks, parts compatibility for things like panel upgrades and battery swaps, and driver inf hacks just gone poof off the face of the internet. All the while rumor aggregators like WCCFTech keep chugging along. SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jul 18, 2022 |
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Jul 18, 2022 08:17
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SwissArmyDruid posted:All the while rumor aggregators like WCCFTech keep chugging along. Nine times out of ten, fiction sells better than fact. So it goes.
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Jul 18, 2022 09:17
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SwissArmyDruid posted:Seems like every day, another old tech standby is fading away. I'm pretty sure that there's new, completely unsponsored tech reviewers delivering high quality coverage, but we haven't found them because they're on TikTok.
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Jul 18, 2022 13:17
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Egon: “Print is dead.” But yeah, I think most of the in depth stuff is in video form now because it’s easier to monetize.
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Jul 18, 2022 14:45
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bull3964 posted:Egon: “Print is dead.” There was always a kernel of truth in the Facebook transition to video thing. GN, LTT and other tech review YouTubers absolutely couldn’t make the kind of money they do off written content.
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Jul 18, 2022 14:50
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multimedia is legit and always has been an incredibly effective way of reaching and teaching people, limited only by practicalities- creating high quality video used to be extortionately expensive. it's not surprising that as creation and hosting got cheaper/free people gravitated to the medium where you could actually eg watch how someone puts a cooler in, rather than a lot of "The bracket A is difficult to fit, while the screws are placed in awkward positions" you get with text. much more useful.
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Jul 18, 2022 16:02
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do we know if EDIT: Raptor, gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 14:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:do we know if Meteor Lake / 13th gen is still going to support DDR4? I'm thinking no but I haven't heard of anything for sure either way https://www.tomshardware.com/news/asrock-z790-h770-supports-both-ddr4-and-ddr5
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Jul 24, 2022 14:30
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I still find it funny you can throw up a 4k video for everyone to see easier than throwing up some text
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Jul 24, 2022 16:03
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CoolCab posted:multimedia is legit and always has been an incredibly effective way of reaching and teaching people, limited only by practicalities- creating high quality video used to be extortionately expensive. it's not surprising that as creation and hosting got cheaper/free people gravitated to the medium where you could actually eg watch how someone puts a cooler in, rather than a lot of "The bracket A is difficult to fit, while the screws are placed in awkward positions" you get with text. much more useful. gamers nexus and hardware unboxed are probably two of the best hardware review teams out there proving that video can be useful for product information
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Jul 24, 2022 19:11
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Shipon posted:gamers nexus and hardware unboxed are probably two of the best hardware review teams out there proving that video can be useful for product information I would argue that from a consumption standpoint, the same information via text would be way more efficient to consume. I'd say GN is useful in spite of the medium, not because of. That said, seems pretty clear that's where the revenue is.
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Jul 24, 2022 19:27
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The difference in ease of monetization is hugely significant. I feel like GN does a great job of outfitting their videos with usefully demarcated time segment labels and also just being nicely straightforward with their information as well, which makes them comparatively so nice versus just a long timeline with no indicator of which bit of content in the video can be found where, or somewhat rambling reviewers / commentators. Thinking about compared to the good old days of Anandtech articles where you might need to navigate several pages into the article to find some bit of info you're after, I don't think it's very different in terms of efficiency.
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Jul 24, 2022 20:00
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Yeah - as someone who likes reading Anandtech (still!) and watching GN, I think both mediums are effective and it's mostly a matter of preference. I like having the tech tubers on in the background while I do other things because I don't actually have to watch the video usually - something like hardware news would work just fine as a podcast, and component reviews are almost the same except for the graphs. I also like Steve dragging companies for doing dumb poo poo and I don't think that would carry nearly as well in text.
Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 23:16
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It's just so, so much faster to read an article than it is to listen to someone narrate it. Even with the timestamps, it's much faster to extract specific information, by skimming text as well, especially when articles are broken into sections. I don't dislike GN, for the most part I think they do a great job with methodology, but again I think benchmark/reviews are better in text from. Obviously there are things that video is better for, like showing actual disassembly, and that's definitely useful. But it's unfortunate all the text review sites seem to be dying.
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Jul 25, 2022 00:40
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I had to listen to a LTT episode once because someone in my lab asked me about a niche product and Linus was literally the only person who ever looked at it. I felt like one of those old timer IT guys who only post on newsgroups Then he went to IDC for a show and I died a little on the inside WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 00:48
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VorpalFish posted:It's just so, so much faster to read an article than it is to listen to someone narrate it. Even with the timestamps, it's much faster to extract specific information, by skimming text as well, especially when articles are broken into sections. Fwiw Steve has said years ago that he thinks the same but that videos were so much better in terms of views that it was a no brainer
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Jul 25, 2022 01:32
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Both have value to me, depending on the thing being reviewed. It likely depends on how you prefer to learn and when/where/how you consume media. I generally go video these days.
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Jul 25, 2022 01:56
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Do GN still have full articles for each of their videos?
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Jul 25, 2022 03:14
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Both certainly have their uses but I often have issues actually absorbing any information from someone rambling off a bunch of stats, same goes for the Project Farm guy. Like I hear and understand it obviously but the moment they switch to the next, it's like uh... so how does this compare to the previous game/item? I guess it's just easier for me to build the bigger picture and put everything into context by looking at several graphs on the same page.
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Jul 25, 2022 06:17
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mobby_6kl posted:Both certainly have their uses but I often have issues actually absorbing any information from someone rambling off a bunch of stats, same goes for the Project Farm guy. Like I hear and understand it obviously but the moment they switch to the next, it's like uh... so how does this compare to the previous game/item? I guess it's just easier for me to build the bigger picture and put everything into context by looking at several graphs on the same page. I feel exactly the same way and have the same problem with Project Farm. It's 10-20 minutes of watching a video just to get to information I could have absorbed in seconds from a well-designed web page.
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Jul 25, 2022 13:36
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I'm just old / at work or even at home sometimes, I just don't have speakers on or my headphones on... I can read a webpage at any time. Stop making me watch videos! (That said, watching videos on car repair has made me 1000x more efficient than looking at a few pics on an Audi forum taken with a feature potato phone and hosted on loving Photobucket... they have their place)
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Jul 25, 2022 17:56
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I vastly prefer the video format for my tech info because I very rarely need this information and if it was only written down I wouldn't seek it out, but having it in video formats means that I can run them while occupied with various other tasks and end up absorbing a lot. It's sort of like language immersion for me, except instead of learning German I'm developing strong opinions about CPU coolers and frame time consistency.
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Jul 25, 2022 18:03
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movax posted:I'm just old / at work or even at home sometimes, I just don't have speakers on or my headphones on... I can read a webpage at any time. Stop making me watch videos! I actually prefer pictures because it’s easy to go specifically to what I need to see instead of skipping around in YT and trying to pause with a greasy or gloved hand
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Jul 25, 2022 18:37
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mobby_6kl posted:Both certainly have their uses but I often have issues actually absorbing any information from someone rambling off a bunch of stats, same goes for the Project Farm guy. Like I hear and understand it obviously but the moment they switch to the next, it's like uh... so how does this compare to the previous game/item? I guess it's just easier for me to build the bigger picture and put everything into context by looking at several graphs on the same page. The problem with Project Farm is that he needs to publish content regularly and the quality has cratered. The videos used to be worth watching because he would actually talk about meaningful stuff that relates to actually realistic use cases, and that sort of combination of quantitative + qualitative analysis can be useful to show on video, now it's mostly irrelevant tests just being rattled off. Sometimes you can derive some value from it but his rankings are loving worthless. Some of his recent videos have use, but a lot of them are really, really bad. "Here's how this tool performs at tasks you would never actually use it for!"
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Jul 25, 2022 19:03
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Is there a most likely bottleneck when I'm playing a game, the framerate's uncapped but GPU utilization is low, and each CPU core isn't close to being maxed out (based on afterburner)? Specifically it's happening with some emulated PS3 games. RPCS3 is CPU intensive, so I'm pretty sure it's not on the GPU side. Something some extra L2 cache would help with?
Rinkles fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 26, 2022 |
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Jul 26, 2022 05:35
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Rinkles posted:Is there a most likely bottleneck when I'm playing a game, the framerate's uncapped but GPU utilization is low, and each CPU core isn't close to being maxed out (based on afterburner)? Specifically it's happening with some emulated PS3 games. RPCS3 is CPU intensive, so I'm pretty sure it's not on the GPU side. Something some extra L2 cache would help with? I know this has been said many times in many threads in sh/sc, but the PS3's architecture is a fundamentally poor fit for emulation on pretty much any "normal" CPU. It's not just slower, because you're writing a (for example) Z80 in software and then running that on a host CPU and then running Z80 code on top of that. A Z80 isn't an x86 CPU, but it shares a lot of structural commonalities with them. The PS3's Cell, on the other hand, is more like a single-core PowerPC with seven coprocessors hanging off of it, each of which is something like an AVX unit, but also something like a shader engine, but also something like a DSP. But really there's eight of them, but really there's not because one is walled off by/for the system software. And these coprocessors can act independently, or they can be chained together in serial. All this because Ken Kutaragi had a giant boner for "elegant" architecture and ignored that the graveyard of CPU design is littered with elegant hardware designs which would rely in a really smart compiler to take up the slack of dealing with the weirdness and/or ideological purity of the hardware engineers -- a thing that never really pans out the way over-confident designers want it to. So to successfully emulate a Cell, you have to correctly implement this odd design, which maps poorly onto commodity hardware, and then you've got to cope with the fact that the compiler was never as good as Sony wanted it to be, and the PS3 largely underperformed the expectations that were set for it because of this. And then there's the fact that games are notoriously full of dirty hacks and cheats, resulting in emulators needing to be what's called "bug-for-bug compatible" with specific games which relied on discovered quirks of the physical hardware, which were likely not documented (on either end; either the hacks, or the discovered quirks). It's just a perfect storm for lovely emulation performance. TL;DR I have no idea if L2 will help; I just want people to accept that PS3 emulation will probably keep being worse than they wish it were, for longer than they expect. P.S. The best thing the PS3 did was help ensure that the PS4 and PS5 are based on commodity hardware. Sony loves to unlearn painful lessons and slip back into Dunning-Krugerspace though, so eventually we're guaranteed to see a playstation built on top another esoteric, possibly-homegrown platform.
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Jul 26, 2022 08:13
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Thanks for detailed response. I've actually been surprised at how well some games perform (I have a 11600K). Some stuff runs at 60fps no problem. Typically the newer the game the worse it runs, though.
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Jul 26, 2022 08:21
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Someone here posted an article not so long ago about how AVX-512 instructions really help with PS3 emulation because they implement some of the esoteric functionality of the Cell co-procs. If you already have an 11th gen Core, your best option is probably to step up to an 11900k. At least it's a straightforward upgrade.
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Jul 26, 2022 08:59
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Rinkles posted:Thanks for detailed response. I've actually been surprised at how well some games perform (I have a 11600K). Some stuff runs at 60fps no problem. Typically the newer the game the worse it runs, though. The newer games running worse thing is probably because when the PS3 first shipped it was too hard for game programmers to get good use out of the Cell SPEs, so few of them bothered. To a game like that, the PS3 is just a single slow PowerPC core with a NVidia GPU, which is not too demanding to emulate. Later games were developed with the advantage of better tooling and/or middleware libraries that made it much easier to do stuff with the SPEs.
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Jul 26, 2022 11:57
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All consoles as far back as the Famicom and Super Famicom have had a progression where games get more and more optimized for the given set of hardware constraints of a particular platform - it's got nothing to do with the PS3 or its particular brand of quirky but interesting Cell CPU. That progression eventually ends up with the late-era games pushing the hardware to its absolute limits, which can result in games feeling slower despite having more optimizations.
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Jul 26, 2022 13:23
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Someone here posted an article not so long ago about how AVX-512 instructions really help with PS3 emulation because they implement some of the esoteric functionality of the Cell co-procs. If you already have an 11th gen Core, your best option is probably to step up to an 11900k. At least it's a straightforward upgrade. Hardware TSX also helps PS3 emulation performance a ton, to the point where people have been finding hacks to re-enable it on the generations of CPU that had it, which were at least Haswell and Broadwell, but maybe Skylake: https://rpcs3.net/blog/2020/08/21/hardware-performance-scaling/. Ok, looking at the article, the God of War and Uncharted games only run well with TSX, which is only available on 4th-9th gen Intel CPUs, and requires disabling some security mitigations. PS3 emulation is the wild west of performance engineering. I'm really curious if having >8 cotes with full AVX-512 support might finally crack that nut because it'll be more possible to pin threads and directly act like the SPUs.
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Jul 26, 2022 14:06
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Someone here posted an article not so long ago about how AVX-512 instructions really help with PS3 emulation because they implement some of the esoteric functionality of the Cell co-procs. It's also because AVX512 doubles the number of registers over what AVX2 has Cell still has even more registers than AVX512, but getting closer means the JIT doesn't need to spill to RAM as often
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Jul 26, 2022 14:09
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Twerk from Home posted:Hardware TSX also helps PS3 emulation performance a ton, to the point where people have been finding hacks to re-enable it on the generations of CPU that had it, which were at least Haswell and Broadwell, but maybe Skylake: https://rpcs3.net/blog/2020/08/21/hardware-performance-scaling/. 
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Jul 26, 2022 14:24
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Meanwhile, Microsoft has a whole host of Xbox 360 games running at quad res or higher and twice the frame rate on their cheapo $299 Zen 2 console, which kind of obviates the need for 360 emulation, and honestly remasters for some degree.
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Jul 26, 2022 14:47
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