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one of the best
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Jul 18, 2022 18:24
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VostokProgram posted:I never played v1 but in v2 each state only has 8 building slots so capitalists building a bad factory in a specific state really could be a national emergency. all glory to the planned economy 
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Jul 18, 2022 18:55
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VostokProgram posted:I never played v1 but in v2 each state only has 8 building slots so capitalists building a bad factory in a specific state really could be a national emergency. Oh no I remember, there's a reason why reactionary monarchies are the objectively best way to start a campaign in Victoria 2
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Jul 18, 2022 19:07
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no look you gotta play an interventionist/lasseiz faire economy its really simple 1. Use focuses to build a small capitalist class (if necessary) 2. Set upper class taxes to 0 3. ???????????????? 4. Congratulations you may or may not have a functioning economy
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Jul 18, 2022 19:22
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Capitalists: I think another clipper factroy would be nice here!  Disembodied spirit of the nation with gods eye view of the economy and foreknowledge of history: you imbecile. You absolute moron.
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Jul 18, 2022 20:11
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already looking forward to a corporation/trust DLC that adds new mechanics within the industrialist faction & fucks with prices
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Jul 18, 2022 20:38
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Randallteal posted:Capitalists: I think another clipper factroy would be nice here!
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Jul 18, 2022 21:13
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Takanago posted:no look you gotta play an interventionist/lasseiz faire economy its really simple If you only care about making Number Go Up (Industry Score) and were a highly literate country like the US, who also benefited from tonnes of immigration, this did work really well.
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Jul 18, 2022 21:19
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1. Get Money 2. 3. Smoke Opium
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Jul 18, 2022 21:21
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Mantis42 posted:1. Get Money Wisdom.
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Jul 18, 2022 21:51
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Mantis42 posted:1. Get Money 
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Jul 18, 2022 22:43
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DaysBefore posted:Love the idea of my countries' top generals and admirals seated around a big oaken table, smoking and muttering in the dimly-lit gloom, grimly informing the President that the Smith Brothers have opened a glass factory in Pasedena "Mein Fuhrer... Steiner..." "Steiner has built a clipper factory." *shakily takes off monocle* "Everyone who pooled their ducats to invest in the clipper factory, get out."
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Jul 19, 2022 02:49
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DrSunshine posted:"Mein Fuhrer... Steiner..." lol
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Jul 19, 2022 10:09
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1549393631831683072
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Jul 19, 2022 17:08
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Honest question because I dont know poo poo about taxing the peasant dirt farmers in the 1800s but my first gut reaction would be that wouldnt the state be better at collecting taxes but be worse at not losing a lot of it to corruption? I'm guessing it will probably be on of those "it depends on how you look at it" because the corruption is accounted for in how big the capacity is?
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Jul 19, 2022 17:22
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Honest question because I dont know poo poo about taxing the peasant dirt farmers in the 1800s but my first gut reaction would be that wouldnt the state be better at collecting taxes but be worse at not losing a lot of it to corruption? I'm guessing it will probably be on of those "it depends on how you look at it" because the corruption is accounted for in how big the capacity is? There's a separate mechanic for losing taxes after they are collected apparently, this one the peasants aren't getting taxed at all and maintain that income. Which, I don't pretend to know a lot about the subject but my impression is more that -everyone- is getting taxed by someone (not necessarily the government or legally) and it's more those taxes going to places other than the government. Maybe it's for mechanical reasons?
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Jul 19, 2022 17:41
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I think it's supposed to represent the reach of the bureaucracy. So, not necessarily corruption, but the state doesn't have enough census takers to know who exists and how much they own/owe, and/or they don't have enough tax collector manpower to travel out to Dirt Farmer Village A every year to collect 8 clods of dirt, and/or tax revenue never makes it back to the capital, not all due to outright embezzlement to buy mayors new mansions, but because court officials/ministers don't know how much they should be expecting because they can't track revenue as a function of national production.
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Jul 19, 2022 18:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrLMQTDpuaA
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Jul 19, 2022 18:14
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The modern administrative state is a very recent phenomenon and the ability to know who is where, how much they're making, and how much they should be paying (at least from a central government POV) is something that's only really developed in living memory. There's also the fact that a lot of modern taxation only became a thing to worry about late in this era; as an example, the US Federal budget for almost the entirety of the game's span was largely based on tariffs on imports, and the government was tiny. In Qing China, a lot of the peasants wouldn't really participate in a cash economy being largely subsistence farmers, so you couldn't even really generate money going after them; they'd have lucrative state monopolies instead, or they'd tax merchant transactions, trade, or create tolls or even just outright expropriate assets. Different nations would have different stages of economic/social/governmental development as well, so there'd be no universal tax simulation that would apply, so this feels like an abstraction of the historical inefficiency of governments grappling with the age-old problem of generating resources to blunt the onrush of events.
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Jul 19, 2022 18:22
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Honest question because I dont know poo poo about taxing the peasant dirt farmers in the 1800s but my first gut reaction would be that wouldnt the state be better at collecting taxes but be worse at not losing a lot of it to corruption? I'm guessing it will probably be on of those "it depends on how you look at it" because the corruption is accounted for in how big the capacity is? Oddly enough it is incredibly difficult to get taxable surpluses out if peasants. Like there are books written about Peasant resistance. Economically destructive taxes like the salt tax were often maintained because it was hard to tax effectively by any other method.
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Jul 19, 2022 18:37
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Quixzlizx posted:I think it's supposed to represent the reach of the bureaucracy. So, not necessarily corruption, but the state doesn't have enough census takers to know who exists and how much they own/owe, and/or they don't have enough tax collector manpower to travel out to Dirt Farmer Village A every year to collect 8 clods of dirt, and/or tax revenue never makes it back to the capital, not all due to outright embezzlement to buy mayors new mansions, but because court officials/ministers don't know how much they should be expecting because they can't track revenue as a function of national production. Yeah, this seems like an abstraction of the several layers of intermediation tax collectors historically had to deal with. Without frequent cadastral surveys/censuses, they would be at the mercy of chains of local and regional officials (who had every incentive to retain as much for themselves as they could, obviously). Technologies like uniform measurements and modern bureaucracy should improve it. Servetus posted:Oddly enough it is incredibly difficult to get taxable surpluses out if peasants. Like there are books written about Peasant resistance. Economically destructive taxes like the salt tax were often maintained because it was hard to tax effectively by any other method. Seeing Like a State and Against the Grain by James Scott are fascinating looks at how the revenue/informational needs of state elites shape societies, often to the detriment of their inhabitants. DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 19:29
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:Seeing Like a State and Against the Grain by James Scott are fascinating looks at how the revenue/informational needs of state elites shape societies, often to the detriment of their inhabitants. and the art of not being governed is a (somewhat cherry-picked) collection of ways that people in southeast asia have resisted being taxed, restricted, measured, conscripted, or regulated. it's also very relevant to this topic
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Jul 19, 2022 19:51
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Servetus posted:Oddly enough it is incredibly difficult to get taxable surpluses out if peasants. Like there are books written about Peasant resistance. Economically destructive taxes like the salt tax were often maintained because it was hard to tax effectively by any other method. yeah i mean one of the big problems from the state's perspective is that the tax collectors never trust the peasants and the peasants never trust the tax collectors. the collectors often demand ruinous taxes in bad years because they suspect resistance instead of crop failure, which leads to the peasants resisting taxes in general every year, which leads to...
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Jul 19, 2022 19:58
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Cease to Hope posted:and the art of not being governed is a (somewhat cherry-picked) collection of ways that people in southeast asia have resisted being taxed, restricted, measured, conscripted, or regulated. it's also very relevant to this topic That one's also pretty good. Yeah, the two I've mentioned are pretty down on scientific/"rationalized" agriculture, despite that being, y'know, the thing that has led to unbelievable gains in agricultural productivity the world over. Still, a great antidote to the "progress/civilization"=inherently good mindset.
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Jul 19, 2022 20:22
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:That one's also pretty good. Yeah, the two I've mentioned are pretty down on scientific/"rationalized" agriculture, despite that being, y'know, the thing that has led to unbelievable gains in agricultural productivity the world over. Still, a great antidote to the "progress/civilization"=inherently good mindset. scott is a walking oxymoron, an anarchist academic who commits to the idea that the liberal idea of progress may not actually be progress, even if it is necessarily somewhat halfhearted
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Jul 19, 2022 20:26
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:That one's also pretty good. Yeah, the two I've mentioned are pretty down on scientific/"rationalized" agriculture, despite that being, y'know, the thing that has led to unbelievable gains in agricultural productivity the world over. Still, a great antidote to the "progress/civilization"=inherently good mindset.
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Jul 19, 2022 20:27
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Cease to Hope posted:scott is a walking oxymoron, an anarchist academic who commits to the idea that the liberal idea of progress may not actually be progress, even if it is necessarily somewhat halfhearted Wait where's the inherent contradiction in that stance? Unless im missing something on the read here that seems more-or-less reasonable on its face
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Jul 19, 2022 20:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Also unbelievable deterioration of soils. Quite true, though I don't think Scott specifically ever mentions that (he's more concerned with the myriad gently caress ups people encountered before figuring out scientific methods good enough to run soils into the ground)
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Jul 19, 2022 20:45
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Wait where's the inherent contradiction in that stance? Unless im missing something on the read here that seems more-or-less reasonable on its face the academic authority he is drawing on is necessarily a product of the liberal ideas he is criticizing. you will not find many professors arguing that literacy is not all it's cracked up to be
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Jul 19, 2022 20:46
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Wait where's the inherent contradiction in that stance? Unless im missing something on the read here that seems more-or-less reasonable on its face Anarchist with tenure at Yale is a pretty funny concept
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Jul 19, 2022 20:56
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I think one of the most basic notions of anarchism is that there's no one-size-fits-all solution to anything. I don't think there's an argument that increasing social complexity/resource production is good for no one. Some communities might be into it and that's fine. But it's definitely not good for everyone, and should probably be done in a way everyone is actually on board with, rather than being imposed by people who think they obviously know better and rarely understand the local systems they're displacing.
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Jul 19, 2022 21:17
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Cease to Hope posted:the academic authority he is drawing on is necessarily a product of the liberal ideas he is criticizing. you will not find many professors arguing that literacy is not all it's cracked up to be idk maybe im built different, but I think it's a stretch. I see where you're coming from and what you're saying, but it's a real "oh and yet you live in society" level take
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Jul 19, 2022 22:13
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James Scott is a great writer and has lots of interesting ideas but if you take them too far you end up in the "rulers are imperialism" camp
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Jul 19, 2022 22:20
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StashAugustine posted:James Scott is a great writer and has lots of interesting ideas but if you take them too far you end up in the "rulers are imperialism" camp Isn't that the point of anarchism? To not be ruled?
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Jul 19, 2022 23:26
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Fader Movitz posted:Isn't that the point of anarchism? To not be ruled? at the risk of spoiling one of our jokes, i meant the object used for measuring
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Jul 20, 2022 00:31
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measurements arent inherently imperialistic but they are inherently bourgeouis, dont @ me i will be taking no questions at this time
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Jul 20, 2022 00:43
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I know, therefore I must exploit
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Jul 20, 2022 00:48
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StashAugustine posted:at the risk of spoiling one of our jokes, i meant the object used for measuring Reading about the prevailing systems of weights/measures in pre-modern Europe engendered a lot of sympathy for High Modernist reformers, at least for me.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:53
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:idk maybe im built different, but I think it's a stretch. I see where you're coming from and what you're saying, but it's a real "oh and yet you live in society" level take i mean, sure, if i was being dismissive. struggling with the contradictions, not wholly successfully, is an interesting subtext in his work
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Jul 20, 2022 04:37
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Cease to Hope posted:the academic authority he is drawing on is necessarily a product of the liberal ideas he is criticizing. you will not find many professors arguing that literacy is not all it's cracked up to be This isn't a criticism of you, but as a person who read Against the Grain a lot more recently than Seeing Like a State, this argument takes me to the very funny conclusion that if Scott didn't want to be a hypocrite he'd have to... go and live as a semi-migratory bronze age tribesman. Maybe in an estuarine environment with a lot of dietary variety. Eat some turtles.
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Jul 20, 2022 04:49
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