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CommieGIR posted:We need both renewables and reliable baseload, be that hydro where possible or nuclear everywhere else. Hydro's a weird one in that it's unreliability just has a longer waveform than eg: solar or wind. Droughts can really gently caress with supply.
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Jul 19, 2022 11:45
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Hydro's a weird one in that it's unreliability just has a longer waveform than eg: solar or wind. Droughts can really gently caress with supply. Sadly true. And guess whats getting worse as climate change digs in its heels.... VideoGameVet posted:So what’s that %? I'm going to be blunt: Holding up South Australia as an achievement is rather like patting yourself on the back for winning a race while in 15th place. What they are doing is good, don't get me wrong, it does NOT scale. You are holding up the smallest region by population with the least demand and saying "See? We can go full renewables.". Its cherry picking. One portion, the smallest, least populated portion of Australia, went full renewables. But Australia as an entire state cannot. Their plan does not work in any other region or with any larger a population. You end up like Germany. Renewables are good, the more the better, but the BASELOAD, the natural gas and coal that Australia burns in abundance daily, that is what must be replaced, and renewables cannot replace baseload, except for maybe hydro but that is so geographically dependent if it hasn't been done by now its not likely to be a solution in the future. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 12:11
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Also isn't it the case that if we wanted to dam it, we already have? Not really a growth sector to meet our energy needs.
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Jul 19, 2022 13:00
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Dameius posted:Also isn't it the case that if we wanted to dam it, we already have? Microhydro is actually a growing technology, both in fresh water and in saltwater. There's lots of opportunity for placing snakes or wheels into the water. And while dams have generally been built everywhere that is a promising candidate, the vast majority of them are built for flood control and aren't currently producing power. There's also some good opportunities for upgrading the dams that we have already built. New designs are safer for fish and are more efficient. Here's the estimates from 2010 (for comparison, the US has installed 135 GW of wind, 63 GW of solar, and 80 GW of hydro.) https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=table_6_01 quote:“Though we have 79,000 dams in this country, only 3 percent produce electricity right now. Although dams were built years ago for flood control, irrigation and navigation, now we want -- with minimal environmental impact -- to capture the power that’s there,” says Garner. “In some cases, 20 to 30 percent more power output could be gained with today’s hydraulic design tools versus what was done 30 years ago, so there’s huge potential to upgrade existing machines.” There is 90,000 MW of untapped hydropower generation capacity in the country, according to the National Hydropower Association. Kaal fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 13:40
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I found the SA data. Yeah they have 100% renewable days sometimes. And other days they have 100% gas days lol. https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/?range=7d&interval=30m Green is wind, yellow is solar. The apricotish is gas. At a glance, it seems like they'd have to double the renewable capacity at least and then install enough storage to last a few days. How feasible this is, I don't know. But since our options basically batteries or pumped storage, seems like it would be non-negligible monetary and environmental cost. E: yeah SA has the population of my city but area 13 more than the whole country haha vvvv mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 13:51
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mobby_6kl posted:I found the SA data. Yeah they have 100% renewable days sometimes. And other days they have 100% gas days lol. And that is, again, the smallest region by population in mainland Australia. So imagine how much you'd have to scale it to cover any of the other regions. CommieGIR posted:https://twitter.com/E_R_Sepulveda/status/1537048560763641856?s=20&t=oYmsmU3vEXcKCVdKEuN9og Bringing this chart back. Renewables, again, rarely exceed 40% of their nameplate, and that's on a good day. Unless you address the baseload covering the rest, you are not solving the problem with renewables alone. And I'll caveat this again: Renewables are good, the more the better. But Renewables Only is a folly that ignores the actual issues. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 13:59
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Will battery based storage ever become realistic? I feel like we're going to be stuck with Natural Gas because everyone's paranoid of Nuclear and the regulatory environment for it sucks. https://electrek.co/2022/06/27/tesla-megapacks-replace-hawaii-last-remaining-coal-plant/
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Jul 19, 2022 16:11
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That's just 565 megawatt-hours, looking at that South Australia chart above, they'd need the battery to be about 100 bigger just to last one windless day.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:25
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MightyBigMinus posted:https://electrek.co/2022/06/27/tesla-megapacks-replace-hawaii-last-remaining-coal-plant/ These last like one hour and take electricity otherwise destined for the grid to charge. Batteries as a replacement for base load is a laughable exercise in futility.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:28
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CommieGIR posted:These last like one hour and take electricity otherwise destined for the grid to charge. Batteries as a replacement for base load is a laughable exercise in futility. Article suggests that the coal plant is mainly used for frequency stability, not base load per se.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:34
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Phanatic posted:Article suggests that the coal plant is mainly used for frequency stability, not base load per se. Makes sense but the poster was implying that is what they were doing. Even more laughable then.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:42
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One thing to remember about Hawaii is that because it is an island they have a very different economic relationship with energy sources. Coal is particularly expensive to import, so they've always mostly relied on oil. They're making some good progress towards unifying their electric grids and promoting alternatives to fossil fuels, but one of the biggest reasons is that the cost of importing fuel helps to justify that investment. Something to keep in mind.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:43
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https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31032022/inside-clean-energy-battery-storage/
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Jul 19, 2022 16:44
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Comment-free links and images are particularly toxic for discussion. I'd encourage people to explain what they mean and why they think an article is relevant.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:46
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CommieGIR posted:Makes sense but the poster was implying that is what they were doing. I didn’t imply anything. I was looking for information on the South Australia system since it’s touted so often.
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Jul 19, 2022 16:49
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VideoGameVet posted:I didn’t imply anything. I was looking for information on the South Australia system since it’s touted so often. My bad, then I misinterpreted your intent. MightyBigMinus posted:https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31032022/inside-clean-energy-battery-storage/ So all this breakthrough and youve achieved the total distributed output of two nuclear plants or 4 reactors. Thats supposed to be an achievement thats impressive? You also have to have equivalent resources to charge those, and given that the figure represents not a single battery but hundreds if not thousands of smaller ones, this isnt actually as impressive as you think it is. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 16:55
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CommieGIR posted:My bad, then I misinterpreted your intent. So the scalability problem is the cost per mWh of storage or even the availability of that storage. Right now the least expensive store is pumped hydro. The liquifying air thing sounds interesting as does thermal (I assume salts) store.
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Jul 19, 2022 17:02
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Hoover dam power plant goes boom: https://twitter.com/kristynashville/status/1549441916000825344
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Jul 19, 2022 19:08
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Phanatic posted:Hoover dam power plant goes boom: As a necessary addendum, while obviously concerning and the cause is at yet unknown, the fire was relatively small and was already out before the fire department arrived. The explosion appears to be located near one of the turbine areas. https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/officials-fire-at-hoover-dam-extinguished-before-crews-arrived-at-scene?_amp=true https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/explosion-fire-nevada-hoover-dam-b2126820.html?amp Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 19, 2022 |
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Jul 19, 2022 19:16
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I read a few weeks ago that due to drought, Hoover dam was no longer producing any power, the water levels were too low.
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Jul 19, 2022 19:18
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Every solar cell, wind turbine, pumped hydro installation, battery facility, and nuke that can be built needs to be funded and ground broken ten years ago. We desperately need every watt of installed capacity to power whatever sequestration scheme that we and our children will end up paying dearly to operate.
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Jul 19, 2022 19:20
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His Divine Shadow posted:I read a few weeks ago that due to drought, Hoover dam was no longer producing any power, the water levels were too low. I think this may have been a misunderstanding. The Hoover Dam has reduced power generation at the current height of 1,041 ft, but it is still capable of producing power unless the water level drops to 950 ft. https://mead.uslakes.info/level.asp https://bouldercityreview.com/news/dam-power-full-lakes-level-remains-high-enough-for-energy-generation-69744/amp/
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Jul 19, 2022 19:36
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Kaal posted:As a necessary addendum, while obviously concerning and the cause is at yet unknown, the fire was relatively small and was already out before the fire department arrived. The explosion appears to be located near one of the turbine areas. Looks like a transformer blew and it's burning transformer oil.
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Jul 19, 2022 19:39
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Kaal posted:I think this may have been a misunderstanding. The Hoover Dam has reduced power generation at the current height of 1,041 ft, but it is still capable of producing power unless the water level drops to 950 ft. Cool a few more months of power
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Jul 19, 2022 21:59
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Potato Salad posted:Every solar cell, wind turbine, pumped hydro installation, battery facility, and nuke that can be built needs to be funded and ground broken ten years ago. We desperately need every watt of installed capacity to power whatever sequestration scheme that we and our children will end up paying dearly to operate. Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:04
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Will battery based storage ever become realistic? MightyBigMinus posted:https://electrek.co/2022/06/27/tesla-megapacks-replace-hawaii-last-remaining-coal-plant/ MightyBigMinus posted:https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31032022/inside-clean-energy-battery-storage/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/06/16/us-grid-scale-energy-storage-quadruples/ quote:The volume of grid-scale energy storage installations in the United States increased four times over that seen in the first quarter of 2021 so 3.5GW last year and nearly 1GW in just the first quarter of this year. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Will battery based storage ever become realistic? the point is, for the guy who thought it was toxic to assume he could track context within a single thread page, that the storage market is already way past the "ever become realistic" point. its in the exponential early growth phase. MightyBigMinus fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 04:30
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New nuclear plant approved in the UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-62235221
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Jul 20, 2022 12:27
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MightyBigMinus posted:https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31032022/inside-clean-energy-battery-storage/ Very weird for battery storage to be quantified in terms of power capacity, not energy capacity. How long can these levels be maintained before the batteries turn to scrap?
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Jul 20, 2022 13:24
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I'm guessing it's 3,508 megawatt-hours. So this could store about 10 seconds of US power generation. But if we extrapolate exponential growth, I'm sure it'll be sufficient very soon.
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Jul 20, 2022 13:34
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Very weird for battery storage to be quantified in terms of power capacity, not energy capacity. How long can these levels be maintained before the batteries turn to scrap? wait i thought the problem was dispatchability fwiw if you actually care to know, the design standard thats emerged for solar farms (which is by far the bulk of the non-car/non-residential market right now) is "+4" meaning for a 100MW farm you'd have 400MWh of storage. this is because a 100w panel will produce about 400 - 500watt-hours over the course of a day in most of the US.  this enables them to bridge the ~5pm - ~9pm 'duck curve' gap between when solar generates power and when most americans are used to consuming it currently the lcoe on these setups are in the $131-232/MWh range, compared to nuclear's $131-204/MWh. one of which is *plummeting* at nearly 10%/yr, the other of which is staying flat at best.
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Jul 20, 2022 13:57
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mobby_6kl posted:But if we extrapolate exponential growth, I'm sure it'll be sufficient very soon. Back of the napkin math says 17 years to hold a full year of US power generation if the 2020-2021 growth factor holds. It likely won't hold that long, of course (although Moore's Law is looking at me as I say that), but useful storage does not require a full year.
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Jul 20, 2022 16:32
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When I was doing the math on solar + energy storage for my folks house, I was looking at 10 kW of solar and ca. 30kWh of storage to load shift and offset more grid usage.
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Jul 20, 2022 16:46
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I think energy storage is really going to grow by leaps and bounds over the next fifty. crazy number of approaches. not all of them are going to be any kind of chemical battery.
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Jul 20, 2022 17:15
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Carbon fiber spring boxes is my favorite
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Jul 20, 2022 17:15
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I like giant flywheels. Great potential for rapid energy release.
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Jul 20, 2022 17:20
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mediaphage posted:I think energy storage is really going to grow by leaps and bounds over the next fifty. crazy number of approaches. not all of them are going to be any kind of chemical battery.  Such an easy, obvious, foolproof, scalable, cheap, space-efficient, CO2-free solution*. I wonder why no one else had this extremely feasible idea! *Note: none of this is true. They have even already built a scale pilot system starting in 2018, finished in 2020, which is why pictures exist of this system fully loaded*:  *Note: not quite fully loaded. Since that was already such a winning solution, they've already iterated on this excellent solution, by replacing the speed limiting usage of the 4 cranes and the slightly difficult and dangerous stacking of large amounts of blocks, with a system of elevators:  This makes switching from coal plants to cool renewable generation with storage a simple three step process:  Bing, bong, boom! So easy and simple! Better invest in this extremely serious and quickly growing company before its too late. It is listed on the New York stock exchange after a completely serious and open merge with a SPAC in February. Starting at only $9.39 it quickly reached a high of $21.64 in April! Please ignore that is has since lost 70% of its value and is currently trading at $6.63 DTurtle fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 20:06
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DTurtle posted:This is my favorite storage solution. Use the power of gravity! By stacking blocks on top of each other! lol I know, none of their stuff ever feels feasible
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Jul 20, 2022 20:15
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DTurtle posted:This makes switching from coal plants to cool renewable generation with storage a simple three step process:
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Jul 20, 2022 20:23
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Yeah EnergyVault is amusing. If you're going to build a structure that can hold up x tonnes why not just make the weighted mass water? They raised 2 billion though so good for them. It's only marginally less stupid than SolarRoadways and they only raised like 3 million.
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Jul 20, 2022 20:39
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Hear me out, its like solder roadways but above the road and you just loosely 'wire' all the vehicles to it like bumper cars
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Jul 20, 2022 20:45
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