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exmachina posted:What do you do about dialects and accents? I guarantee that your phonetic spelling will be different to mine, and now we have lost mutual intelligibility. That's a language standardization issue and emphatically not an orthographic one. It's not like having inconsistent spellings is somehow friendlier for native speakers of a non-standard variety. And in fact, having consistent orthography often can lead to greater representation for speakers of non-standard varieties. Look at German. Standard German is almost entirely* an artificial construct in order to be vaguely similar to everyone's home dialect and allow written communication for purposes of things like government administration, literature, increased socialization, etc. Almost nobody* actually speaks Standard German at home, and is instead diglossic ("two tongues", capable of speaking more than one variety) between their home form(s) and the standardized form they learned in school. But since everyone uses the same basic phonetic units, you can quite rapidly pick up how someone is writing because it's very similar to understanding speech. Because everyone can do this, there is a robust and active literature in non-standard varieties and they're well represented. I have stacks of books in my home variety, there are dialect dictionaries and a thriving amateur linguistic community because there's local pride in the home language as a means of culture : people hang out and share particularly niche and rare forms and try to keep them alive just because they can and it's fun. They even do this cute thing in Asterix and Obelix comics (mandatory European cultural artifact) where the Romans all speak Standard German and the heroic Gauls speak the home variety both to show a little bit of language pride and it distinguishes diegetically whether the characters are speaking Latin or Gaulish. As someone who only learned to write his native language in his 20's, as in I was in an airpot at 25 when I learned "to wait" had an 'r' in it, I can tell you that going from non-standard German to Standard German writing was basically identical to learning the standard form. Keeping in mind I've been phonetically writing with family and friends in the regional form since I was 6 with out issue ; yeah, one uncle spells "work" 'owit' and another spells it 'abit', but that's also just the difference between talking to Mannfred vs. Bertie. This is true in a lot of languages, of course, but I don't speak those and I don't have gads of lived experience about them so it'd be more hollow. *For sociological and political, rather than linguistic, reasons, some people have had to compromise more than others. Since my native variety is one of the more "divergent" ones, I can totally appreciate that this isn't ideal on the ground, but that's because the dudes who made it were rich Protestant fuckers from the other side of the country and even then they still gave us something. Absurd Alhazred posted:It can actually be a lot of fun to have communications issues be an important adventure point. You can leverage that to, say, make one or more of your characters matter because you're the only ones who can mediate between two hostile factions who otherwise have no way of communicating with each other. As King Language Nerd of the forums who's played for years exclusively with fellow post-grad language nerds : NO. Lol no, gently caress no. Nothing about that is fun. Lmao. I already do that in real life and it's called "gently caress you brother in law I'm tired of translating for you at Christmas learn some loving German".
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Jul 5, 2022 22:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:As King Language Nerd of the forums who's played for years exclusively with fellow post-grad language nerds : NO. Lol no, gently caress no. Nothing about that is fun. Lmao. I already do that in real life and it's called "gently caress you brother in law I'm tired of translating for you at Christmas learn some loving German". I mean, physically playing through a medieval fantasy world would be pretty unpleasant, what with all the cancers and the open sores and the being cut up by swords and piss wizards messing with you everywhere; it's still fun to play pretend about it, though. 
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Jul 5, 2022 22:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I mean, physically playing through a medieval fantasy world would be pretty unpleasant, what with all the cancers and the open sores and the being cut up by swords and piss wizards messing with you everywhere; it's still fun to play pretend about it, though. Hey you do you, hoss. If you find that fun, god speed. But that sounds like making a Con check to churn butter in terms of being fun.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:30
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Xiahou Dun posted:Hey you do you, hoss. If you find that fun, god speed. But that sounds like making a Con check to churn butter in terms of being fun. Oh, I see you've read my homebrew supplement for Ultraviolet Grasslands.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:31
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Gloranthia's methods continue to be the best.Absurd Alhazred posted:It can actually be a lot of fun to have communications issues be an important adventure point. You can leverage that to, say, make one or more of your characters matter because you're the only ones who can mediate between two hostile factions who otherwise have no way of communicating with each other. I do not want my pretendy time escapist elf game to involve the equivalent of the Consitutional Convention. I have barely enough free time as is. At that point you'd be better served with a different system because if I was capable of roleplaying someone believeably with, say, Charisma 18+ i would be running for public office. AmiYumi posted:I once had a Dark Ages: Vampire group where we made characters separately and then discovered there wasn’t a single shared language in the party; the ST ended up going with the “well, everyone speaks some Romance language, let’s pretend that’s good enough so we can move on” I played a DA:V character that was an eastern emissary to the Isles of Avalon. Imagine his *horror* when he discovered the natives spoke *Latin* as opposed to *Greek*. So this over educated turbonerd spy had people think he was an idiot because he could only speak broken Latin. Edgar Allen Ho posted:
It is, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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Jul 5, 2022 22:43
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citybeatnik posted:I do not want my pretendy time escapist elf game to involve the equivalent of the Consitutional Convention. I have barely enough free time as is. At that point you'd be better served with a different system because if I was capable of roleplaying someone believeably with, say, Charisma 18+ i would be running for public office. Sounds like it might not be fun for you, then. So I would suggest you don't do it. Edit: also I agree that D&D, while you can improvise around to make this happen, is not the best system for this. I'd like to retry it some day with something like, say, RuneQuest, which has partial language proficiency and language learning mechanics. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 22:44
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Efforts to recreate Dwarf Fortress from scratch are misplaced IMO, but YMMV
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Jul 5, 2022 23:00
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It can actually be a lot of fun to have communications issues be an important adventure point. You can leverage that to, say, make one or more of your characters matter because you're the only ones who can mediate between two hostile factions who otherwise have no way of communicating with each other.  this is my favorite reply anyone has ever made to anything I posted
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Jul 5, 2022 23:17
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I think 13th Age is one of my favorite takes on alignment with their Icon system. Basically instead of alignment, there are 13 characters or factions as part of the game's setting, and instead of defining your character in absolute moral/philosophical/ideological/metaphysical terms, you spend points during character creation to define your character's relationship with those factions in numeric terms. You choose either a positive, negative, or conflicted relationship with each Icon, and the exact mechanic for dealing with that is that at the start of every play session, for each point you have with that icon, you roll one die, and for every 6 you get, there will be some kind of benefit to the player ingame from their relationship in the session, used at the discretion of either the player or the DM. For every 5, the player gets a benefit with some kind of downside attached. They put a little chart in the book defining the icons in good/lawful/evil/chaotic terms for players who care about that, as well as rules relating to which factions are heroic/neutral/villainous, but there's a lot of icons that straddle quadrants or leave interpretation to the players and DM. It seems very unlike how a lot of classic RPG handbooks are since the handbook for 13th age talks a lot about how a lot of the game will be at the discretion of players and DM or how to take the systems of 13th Age and repurposing them for using with other settings, a lot about just playing the game rather than going on and on about the weird specific lore. Some players will want to play without complicated moral quandaries and they're just good versus evil, others want to muddle their way through more complicated morals. It's also baking naturally opposed nations/factions/countries into the fiber of the game that don't fully line up with the playable races, so you're a bit less likely to default to the weird national race-essentialism that some fantasy RPG players blunder into, often through no fault of their own except lack of creativity.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:43
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Remember when the WoD games were written by Americans and had Linguistics 5 (peak human performance, decades of study required) give you the ability to speak 5 whole languages?
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Jul 5, 2022 23:52
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exmachina posted:Remember when the WoD games were written by Americans and had Linguistics 5 (peak human performance, decades of study required) give you the ability to speak 5 whole languages? I would bet real money that someone in Atlanta had it pointed out to them that speaking four or five languages is perfectly normal in most of the developing world, and they responded that it makes sense because they don’t have any resource dots.
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Jul 5, 2022 23:57
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They changed it in revised edition, but then made it cost 1 merit pt to speak and 2 to write in CoD
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Jul 6, 2022 07:36
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Xiahou Dun posted:That's a language standardization issue and emphatically not an orthographic one. It's not like having inconsistent spellings is somehow friendlier for native speakers of a non-standard variety. I remember when some of the kids in high school German class went to Germany for summer exchange; you could tell what region of Germany they’d gone to by how they came back pronouncing “Ich.” The Brits have Received Pronunciation, America and Canada have Broadcast English.
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Jul 6, 2022 12:27
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exmachina posted:They changed it in revised edition, but then made it cost 1 merit pt to speak and 2 to write in CoD To be pedantic: in 'new World of Darkness' as it was originally released, Language was a 3 point merit. 1 point was bare minimum, 2 points was fluency and literacy, 3 points was native-level proficiency. Even by the time they released Mage the Awakening 1e, they realised this was dumb, and so the mage High Speech merit only costs 1 point and the Language merit in general was errated to be only one point. This carries over to Chronicles of Darkness (nWoD2e) where Language is just a 1 point merit to learn a new language. You can also instead take the Multilingual merit, which gives you two languages you can speak but you can only read them with a successful Intelligence+Academics roll. The average starting character, for reference, has 7 merit points to play with at character creation. Some other merits in CofD, for reference: Eidetic Memory: 2 Common Sense (the ability to check with your GM if you're about to do something dumb): 3 Resources: comes in multiple levels. Having Resources 3 is the ability to buy something as expensive as a really nice smartphone once per game chapter. bewilderment fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 13:03
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https://twitter.com/NoHateInGaming/status/1549479240390901760 Yikes
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Jul 20, 2022 20:31
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FATAL in spaaaaaaaace
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Jul 21, 2022 01:45
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exmachina posted:FATAL in spaaaaaaaace But does it have anal circumference charts? I need to know how much I can shove into my anus for ~realism~
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Jul 21, 2022 03:34
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Randalor posted:But does it have anal circumference charts? I need to know how much I can shove into my anus for ~realism~ No doubt it will be in a sourcebook
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Jul 23, 2022 04:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It can actually be a lot of fun to have communications issues be an important adventure point. You can leverage that to, say, make one or more of your characters matter because you're the only ones who can mediate between two hostile factions who otherwise have no way of communicating with each other. Oddly enough I wound up doing that in one 2nd edition AD&D game because my DM back then (who I think might have actually studied linguistics) liked to use different real-world languages as "monster tongues", and when he used Spanish for lizard people I knew just enough to comment about it out of character and he let me use my real-world Spanish knowledge for my character. So my somewhat cowardly less than clever elven fighter-thief wound up previously having randomly picked up some lizardfolk language knowledge somewhere (probably in prison going by how I played him  ) and got to negotiate for the group. It was kind of amusing using my garbage Spanish-speaking skills and some charades to communicate, it felt very much like I expect such a conversation would logically go. Have had somewhat similar "don't know the local tongue because you're explorers" situations in our current D&D-like game too, although my priest character having a mass long-duration version of the comprehend languages spell tended to remove the issue beyond a daily upkeep thing.That said though, I do agree with the people who note this sort of thing gets tiresome if stretched too long, even if it is more "realistic" for language to be a barrier. At minimum PCs need to have a common tongue they can use with at least a significant local population as well, some way to bypass the issue like magic, or else you need some way to do the Star Wars thing where something or someone translates everything for the speech-impaired. Most in-character extra language use I've seen work well has been used either the typical archaeologist "translate long-forgotten writing in crypts" or similar, or catching out people who don't know you happen to speak their language and talking about important things in their tongue "secretly".
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Jul 26, 2022 02:06
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Just to clarify, for me it's not about realism in my elfgames, it's more mining interesting things from reality to use in my elfgames.
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Jul 26, 2022 19:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:4th edition threw out most alignment stuff but that was badwrongfun that pissed off all the worst people that WotC immediately went back to pandering to. What are folks’ thoughts on how this edition war in particular, especially in the tg forum, got pretty intrinsically connected to the culture war of the time. We had/have some really socially regressive figures figures heading up the fight against fourth edition, such as Zak S, that one dude who fled to South America and posted about what tobacco he was smoking, and the dude who really loves making gamergate and sexual-assault themed games (their names, thankfully, escape me). There definitely seemed to be a push to tie “prefers older d&d rules” to conservative politics in general. And that wasn’t just from the 4e fans. That’s not even getting into all of the drama caused by grognards.txt. There were also multiple lgbt goon creators who were harassed out of the hobby or forced into humiliating concessions, so the stakes were definitely real. So, several years on, what are folks takeaways from that edition war? What does it mean politically, and socially. For a short while, the most politically dramatic forum on SA was the very small traditional games forum.
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Aug 5, 2022 05:20
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fr0id posted:What are folks’ thoughts on how this edition war in particular, especially in the tg forum, got pretty intrinsically connected to the culture war of the time. Was it actually related to the culture war? Was there a mass Democratic or leftist movement to incorporate 4e fandom into their politics? Or was it just that fraction of Gamergaters who played tabletop games that decided to make 4e bashing part of their identity?
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Aug 5, 2022 05:53
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Fuschia tude posted:Was it actually related to the culture war? Was there a mass Democratic or leftist movement to incorporate 4e fandom into their politics? Or was it just that fraction of Gamergaters who played tabletop games that decided to make 4e bashing part of their identity? It was huge thing going on in the tg forum here for several years. So like a microcosm of what was going on, but then it was also a battle over something that was still incredibly niche before the massive popularity boost from critical role and twitch streaming.
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Aug 5, 2022 06:05
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I was a grognards.txt poster and that isn't how I remember it at all??? Can you explain a little more what you're asking?
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Aug 5, 2022 06:08
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Xiahou Dun posted:I was a grognards.txt poster and that isn't how I remember it at all??? Basically, there seemed to a pretty strong tie with the edition wars over d&d 4e; 4e fans being seen as more progressive and haters being seen as regressive. This occurred at the height of grognards.txt, a certain political culture of the forums, and at the height of a lot of the really lovely anti 4e peoples popularity. Throughout the Obama era, basically. Also the height of gamergate and its effects in the ttrpg realm. I’m curious what people think about that several years on. Is the OSR still seen as a mostly regressive force? thoughts on those assignments of politics to edition preference? How did it affect game design? Lessons learned? Etc. Basically, the online culture war of progressive versus conservative/regressive found its way to edition wars over d&d and the emergence of multiple modern indie scenes. What are folks’ thoughts on the role this forum played in those and how things are now in 2022?
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Aug 5, 2022 06:17
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My impression of how things started with D&D 4E in the TG part of the forums, as an outsider who did not yet have an account, was that I was flabbergasted at the hostility towards people who wanted to stick with their piles of 3.5 splatbooks instead of immediately jumping to the latest hotness, which was presented as inherently better because that's what Wizards was coming out with and supporting now. I kind of lost interest in SA's TG forums after that, then in RPGs for a very long time through grad school, and by the time I came back to paying attention to RPGs, 5E was already going strong, and I was reading stories here about the abuse that had been directed at people on SA, and all the theoretical arguments for why 4E was superior, which of course became more important now that Wizards wasn't supporting it anymore.
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Aug 5, 2022 06:27
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Yeah, I don't buy your premise that the edition war became inherently conflated with right wing politics. We specifically went after people who wanted to be racist or sexist in gaming or in gaming spaces, because that's part of what being a grognard is : the guy who's trying to make you play in his homebrew World of Gor system is a grognard. Now it so happens that a lot of the people who want to have lower mental stats for black people or to act out rape fantasies also happen to often have right wing views, but that wasn't the point. It's not like we were talking about tax policy. It also wasn't like politics was the goal, there was an absolute ton of just "this guy keeps threatening to bring out his DMing mask".
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Aug 5, 2022 06:37
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yeah, I don't buy your premise that the edition war became inherently conflated with right wing politics. I can only say as a long time lurker, but this isn’t accurate. There were absolutely some general cultural beliefs about old school folks being right wing. These also happened to be backed up by the aforementioned folks I brought up with zak, tobacco dude, and sexual assault games dude. But as mentioned above, I think it lead to a general sense of the tg forum being seen as incredibly anti-anything but 4e for a bit. I don’t have the direct posts, but I even remember golks bringing up “hey are we conflating politics with edition wars?” and some light discussions happening well after things were settled.
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Aug 5, 2022 06:47
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fr0id posted:I can only say as a long time lurker, but this isn’t accurate. There were absolutely some general cultural beliefs about old school folks being right wing. These also happened to be backed up by the aforementioned folks I brought up with zak, tobacco dude, and sexual assault games dude. But as mentioned above, I think it lead to a general sense of the tg forum being seen as incredibly anti-anything but 4e for a bit. I don’t have the direct posts, but I even remember golks bringing up “hey are we conflating politics with edition wars?” and some light discussions happening well after things were settled. (Dawg, I was one of those posters) Zak is much later, you're getting your times all mixed up. And yes, we did bring that up, because the thread was self-policing. Someone would get out of line or someone new would come in and then we'd tell them that the point of was to mock lovely gamers and not right wingers. People would specifically edit out non-TG parts of grog rants because it was considered polite.
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Aug 5, 2022 06:53
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4e fans get characterised as ultra-defensive or aggressive, but it's hard to exaggerate how much utter hostility you got for liking 4e at all almost everywhere on the internet, to the point where WotC themselves basically pitched 'D&D Next' as a hardcore return to form and total refutation of it, courting all the worst people in the fanbase. (and getting shocked later on at how this backfired on them) Heard them compared to Snyder fans and it's unintentionally apropos. Complete with most of the 'criticisms' of 4e being flat out obviously made up if you'd ever actually played it or seen it played. I ever had a friend who watched Let's Play D&D and did a complete 180 on 4e on realising it was actually a playable game you can roleplay in and not what the internet had told them it was.
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Aug 5, 2022 07:04
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What could be said as a "to be fair" is that the prerelease 4e material clearly needed another couple passes in the design stage. I distinctly remember a map including a maze that was just cropped from something else, except in a way where it left the maze without a valid exit. Add that to early monster design being incredibly nonthreatening with about twice as much HP as necessary, and it gave a lot of people who were playing the game they were told to play a bad first impression.
girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 07:08
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Xiahou Dun posted:(Dawg, I was one of those posters) I think that’s it though. The apparent forum culture was that it was about left vs right and someone would get put in line that “no, it’s about “about this left line vs this right line but no further.” And it felt pretty confused. Let alone for someone who was okay with lgbt but liked old school d&d.
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Aug 5, 2022 07:27
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fr0id posted:I think that’s it though. The apparent forum culture was that it was about left vs right and someone would get put in line that “no, it’s about “about this left line vs this right line but no further.” And it felt pretty confused. Let alone for someone who was okay with lgbt but liked old school d&d. 1) Can not emphasize enough that you are currently informing me of what I thought and did in the past, which is lovely. 2) What is an "apparent forum culture"? What does that mean. 3) Again, we were self-policing to stay on topic. There would even be mod action about it. Like, it was a problem but they didn't become synonymous. 4) Many of the posters liked old D&D and still played it. Huh? 5) Remember, the thread was for finding grog out in the wilds and bringing it back to post in the thread ; the thread wasn't going out and edition warring.
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Aug 5, 2022 07:41
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Every single TT RPG that has a community has edition wars. White Wolf, Traveller, hell even Paranoia had active edition wars. It just seems to be a thing nerds do, arguing on the internet can be fun.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:41
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I think where the conflation comes from is people defending Gygax and his politics. They of course also defend the versions of the game closest to his “vision”, but that has no more to do with 3.5e vs. 4e vs. 5e than anything else that makes them scream in fear of change.
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Aug 5, 2022 13:02
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The OSR movement was a common subject in grogs.txt because it frequently overlapped with the edition war and it absolutely has issues with racists, misogynists, and fascists. Dungeon Crawl Classics, one of the more mainstream OSR games had sonnenrads in it for years. ACKS was made by the guy who ran Milo.inc. Whatever the gently caress the Flame Princess guy's creepy deal is. Pundit. Et cetera.
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Aug 5, 2022 13:45
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I don't think Edition Wars got conflated with right-wing conservative American politics, honestly, I think it's more that "well I'm gonna make my own thing except Conservative" has been a long-running undercurrent in the American right for decades. Don't like Wikipedia? Build Conservapedia. Don't like websites with functional interfaces? Build Freep. Don't like Twitter? Build a dozen failed "Twitter but for Republicans" clones. As Der Waffle Mous mentions, the OSR was chock full of CHUDs, but that was, I suspect, a reflection of this urge to "do it right and also rightwing" we see in conservative circles in the US. And while the OSR overlapped with and arguably kinda spun out of D&D edition wars, I suspect that conflating all of that into "liberals liked new D&D and conservatives liked old D&D" is not a particularly accurate picture of the way things sorted out
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Aug 5, 2022 15:45
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I was on a hiatus from the hobby during the 3.5 and 4e days, but I will say as somebody that grew up playing the white box, BECMI and AD&D 1e and 2e during the Satanic Panic, the idea of right wingers promoting a specific version of D&D is very odd.
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Aug 5, 2022 16:07
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There is a whole thing where big arguments about whatever can eventually drift into arguments about whatever the people involved are most passionate or angry about (their politics), but that doesn't always add up to creating a long-term link between issues. (much like how many pragmatically aligned political groups end up not caring about eachothers' issues despite how long they're together) I have feelings about 4E because it's the only D&D I played, even if only for a brief time. I kinda fell in love with the character creation program for a little bit.
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Aug 5, 2022 17:03
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fr0id posted:So, several years on, what are folks takeaways from that edition war? What does it mean politically, and socially. For a short while, the most politically dramatic forum on SA was the very small traditional games forum. First, I think you're conflating the Edition Wars with a broader culture war within tabletop. That's the problem with using grognards.txt as a lens. There were grognards who hated anything that changed after their favourite edition, and grognards who insisted that if something was okay with their gaming group in 1980, it can't not be okay today. There was a lot of overlap between the two, but the Venn diagram wasn't a circle. What they had in common was throwing tantrums at anything that seemed to criticize their nostalgia. And none of this connects one-for-one to any kind of partisan kulturkampf, because for all these people the Republican Party was extremely uncool. None of them, from the twentysomething edgelords to the middle-aged grognards, wanted to be associated with McCain or Palin or Romney or old men whining about Barfsack Ocrumbo. Bear in mind that some of these people would call you Tipper Gore or Pat Pulling for suggesting that roleplaying games shouldn't feature rape fetish porn. The connection to the broader culture war was through Gamergate. Alexander Macris, writer of ACKS and cofounder of the Escapist, was of course a big Gamergater. I believe James Desborough and Venger Satanis also identified as part of the movement. John Tarnowski (RPGPundit) whined about critics of Gamergate, then whined about being identified with Gamergate for doing so. Macris actually ran a site about video game journalism, the others latched onto it because they are, before anything else, incredibly fragile attention whores. All of these people, plus more I haven't mentioned and plenty of randos I've never heard of, all used the language that developed around Gamergate and helped spawn the alt-Right. Whining about SJWs and how liberals are the real fascists, etc. It was very "alt-light" in character. For what it's worth, Satanis is a Republican and Tarnowski is some kind of mystical fascist. Zak S has a pattern of trying to portray himself as a left-anarchist while writing reactionary rants with the terminology changed. (For example, he writes about being persecuted by an "online hatemob" because he knows that saying "cancel culture" would paint him as a reactionary.) The takeaway is that the anti-4e side of the Edition Wars tended to be deeply reactionary without identifying as right-wing, and often refusing and resenting attempts to label them as such. fr0id posted:Is the OSR still seen as a mostly regressive force? thoughts on those assignments of politics to edition preference? How did it affect game design? Lessons learned? Etc. But it's not all good now. For example, Cavegirl (author of Esoteric Enterprises) made a couple posts about how she's going to focus on 5e content instead of labeling what she does OSR, because she can make more sales while dealing with much less hostility. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 18:30
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