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kw0134 posted:A strong state is a necessary condition of being a successful imperialist, so this argument means the trappings of any decently powerful state is imperialistic. Sometimes a thing is done not because it lets a state dominate its neighbors but because it is also inherently a useful project. Napoleon defining what a kilo is had more to do with reducing physical variance of cannonfire to simplify the problem of "where will cannonball go?" into one more purely mathematical though. Maths which had been solved at the time.
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Jul 23, 2022 11:40
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 Marge, just about everything is imperialism. You ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom. Takanago fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 17:59
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Takanago posted:
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Jul 23, 2022 18:20
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universal measures mean that you have less need for someone familiar with local customs to measure (and, thus, tax, regulate, or redirect) the local commerce. it is one of many ways of stamping out and standardizing idiosyncratic local customs to make it easier to rule an area from afar. it's a part of a larger tendency on the part of states to render all people and activity in their territory legible to its rulers, so that those people can be directed to benefit either the rulers or the state as a whole. often, this process of making people and activity legible is a detriment to the people being measured. if that sounds like a statement made by someone who is inherently suspicious of centralized power, you're right, it is. it's the premise of Seeing Like A State, which was written by an anarchist. kw0134 posted:An overly broad term that encompasses everything from the subjugation of the Belgian Congo to the fact American kids of immigrants prefer jeans to the traditional clothing of their parents makes it worthless as a descriptor then. Everything becomes an act of imperialism, so we may as well discard the term to get the granularity needed to discuss it any detail. weird how this game about the subjugation of the belgian congo is also going to put so much emphasis on immigrants assimilating to the dominant culture.
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Jul 23, 2022 18:39
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I mean Wiz is in this thread making fun of the tedious Imperialism derail so probably not in the way you would hope
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Jul 23, 2022 19:06
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There's a meme in stellaris from the last time we had a pointless never-ending pedantic debate over the meaning of terms.
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Jul 23, 2022 19:13
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Baronjutter posted:There's a meme in stellaris from the last time we had a pointless never-ending pedantic debate over the meaning of terms. And yet collectivism vs individualism was indeed renamed to authoritarianism vs egalitarianism, so goons won the debate 
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Jul 23, 2022 19:24
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Enjoy posted:And yet collectivism vs individualism was indeed renamed to authoritarianism vs egalitarianism, so goons won the debate lmao i remember that
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Jul 23, 2022 19:33
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The worst crime imperialism caused was this particular debate.
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Jul 23, 2022 19:38
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So... are all colonial acts also imperialistic acts? Probably not. Best example I can think of is that poople fleeing Napoleonic Europe probably weren't in it for the glory of empire.
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Jul 23, 2022 19:59
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Imperialism is being treated as a synonym for bad but I'm not sure that the world is worse off for the existence of the Roman empire.
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Jul 23, 2022 20:12
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Raenir Salazar posted:Imperialism is being treated as a synonym for bad but I'm not sure that the world is worse off for the existence of the Roman empire. Given enough time, any conquest, no matter how brutal, turns into an inevitable civilizing force of history allowing girls to transport pots of gold over long distances.
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Jul 23, 2022 20:26
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Well the problem with treating old school imperialism as exactly the same as more modern versions, is that most civilizations would do it in a heartbeat if given the option. The very idea it could be bad would just be confusing
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Jul 23, 2022 20:31
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What's actually being debated? Is it just semantics? If we're talking about systems that ease the imposition of state control over it's own people, I think you could call that "imperialism" in the original "command" sense of the word. Or you could say "imperialism" has strong enough connotations with one group imposing on another group that you're not comfortable using that word in the context of centralization. Who cares? It's interesting to point out how state control works, but I find the idea of insisting on particular meanings of words to be pointless. If that's all that's going on this whole conversation is imperialism.
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Jul 23, 2022 20:33
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Raenir Salazar posted:Imperialism is being treated as a synonym for bad but I'm not sure that the world is worse off for the existence of the Roman empire. But seriously, what did the Romans even do that justifies their reign of terror?
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Jul 23, 2022 20:48
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They don’t need to justify it it happened and their neighbors did it and their successors did it.
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Jul 23, 2022 20:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It resulted in people posting stuff like this. Cool aesthetic
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Jul 23, 2022 20:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But seriously, what did the Romans even do that justifies their reign of terror? The aqueduct?
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Jul 23, 2022 20:51
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ilitarist posted:The aqueduct? Gaius Marius posted:Cool aesthetic
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Jul 23, 2022 21:01
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Though caring about imperialism in the distant past is self indulgent nonsense anyway
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Jul 23, 2022 21:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though caring about imperialism in the distant past is self indulgent nonsense anyway this is the victoria 3 thread my dude
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Jul 23, 2022 21:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It resulted in people posting stuff like this. I don't think it was a reign of terror for many of the peoples living within the borders or tribes who sought refuge within. But yeah as someone else implies you're literally doing that Monty Python skit. Because basically right now it kinda seems like for some people "convincing people to do things the way I want to do them" is apparently Imperialism.
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Jul 23, 2022 21:09
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Cease to Hope posted:this is the victoria 3 thread my dude Vicky 3 is set less than 300 years ago and many of the systems are still a thing. That’s not ancient. Getting mad at the Romans or the Caliphate for stuff that is over a thousand years old is
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Jul 23, 2022 21:15
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Takanago posted:
Eiba posted:What's actually being debated? Is it just semantics? The Napoleonic Ogre wanted the Anglo to have reasonable measuring rules but the brave people of Worcesteroshire-upon-the-thane still measure their potatoes in stones and their apartment heights in feet length or something.
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Jul 23, 2022 21:17
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Eiba posted:What's actually being debated? Is it just semantics?
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Jul 24, 2022 01:04
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imperialposting, the highest stage of shitposting
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Jul 24, 2022 02:24
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in the future anarchist utopia we have abolished imperialist measurements and i immediately die by overdosing on painkillers
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Jul 24, 2022 02:44
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Being invaded by a foreign country is good, actually, because all the people that don't get murdered in the initial invasion now get to enjoy the benefits of a foreign, efficient administrative system siphoning all their wealth to the metropole. The only ethical way to play Victoria is (obviously) to play a country that got invaded irl and beat up the country that invaded you. If you do some fictional imperialism along the way, it's then morally justified by your underdog status. Turn that Isle-de-france into the Isle-de-Vietnam, baby.
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Jul 24, 2022 06:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't think it was a reign of terror for many of the peoples living within the borders or tribes who sought refuge within. But yeah as someone else implies you're literally doing that Monty Python skit.
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Jul 24, 2022 06:41
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Oh this is more you having a weird vendetta against the Romans like an edgy teenager
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Jul 24, 2022 08:14
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...edgy teenagers have vendettas against the Romans???
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Jul 24, 2022 08:30
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Yeah because the Romans in western society are seen as important. No one is talking about how brutal and overrated the Caliphate is, because in the west no one cares even a little bit about the Caliphate
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Jul 24, 2022 08:33
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can't wait to play victoria 3
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Jul 24, 2022 08:38
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cleveland is the capital of ohio in previous victoria games, will this be fixed??
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Jul 24, 2022 09:08
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Snooze Cruise posted:...edgy teenagers have vendettas against the Romans??? Red Bones posted:The only ethical way to play Victoria is (obviously) to play a country that got invaded irl and beat up the country that invaded you. 
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Jul 24, 2022 10:14
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It resulted in people posting stuff like this. the importance of the corpus iuris civilis cannot be denied
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Jul 24, 2022 10:36
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Being a citizen of Rome meant having a higher standard of living on average than anyone in the Western world would see until the Enlightenment era. During the Pax Romana most people in most provinces would never even see a soldier, let alone the flames of war. Hard to argue that wasn't an improvement on what came before. And as a Marxist, I must salute the Caesars for advancing the dialectic and developing the means of production, thereby bringing tribal societies of Western Europe out of the primitive communist stage of history and into the classical or slavery based stage of history, the next step on mankind's path to freedom.
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Jul 24, 2022 10:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah because the Romans in western society are seen as important. No one is talking about how brutal and overrated the Caliphate is, because in the west no one cares even a little bit about the Caliphate Mantis42 posted:Being a citizen of Rome meant having a higher standard of living on average than anyone in the Western world would see until the Enlightenment era. During the Pax Romana most people in most provinces would never even see a soldier, let alone the flames of war. Hard to argue that wasn't an improvement on what came before. And as a Marxist, I must salute the Caesars for advancing the dialectic and developing the means of production, thereby bringing tribal societies of Western Europe out of the primitive communist stage of history and into the classical or slavery based stage of history, the next step on mankind's path to freedom.
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Jul 24, 2022 11:50
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Take it to the Imperator thread you loving dorks 
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Jul 24, 2022 12:16
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Dreissi posted:Take it to the Imperator thread you loving dorks
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