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Ohtori Akio posted:Describing an ongoing high-intensity war in the terms of a popular fantasy novel suggests to me that the war is about as real or grave to the speaker as a fantasy novel. Just so I’m clear, what is this new invented category? Are there ethnic Putin supporters now? I’m not talking about any term anymore (it’s no different or more/less cringy than ‘MAGA’ or ‘chud’ as nouns), because I’m curious what the basis of this insane take is. Victis fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 07:00
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Victis posted:Just so I’m clear, what is this new invented category? Are there ethnic Putin supporters now? That's the point; there is no actual ethnic category at play here, but the process of racialization is independent of that. Race (something perceived, not objectively held) is different from ethnicity. I don't know or particularly care whether a given Western speaker is thinking in racial terms when they say the word, which (to answer your question) would be in reference to the RF+separatist soldiers and their domestic supporters, or the entire Federation. My point is off-topic though - so we should draw the derail to a close if we understand each other.
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Jul 24, 2022 07:14
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Ohtori Akio posted:Race (something perceived, not objectively held) is different from ethnicity. What kinda definition of ethnicity are you going off where it is "objectively held".
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Jul 24, 2022 07:38
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edit: gently caress it, nm (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Victis fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 07:49
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IronicDongz posted:Soldiers are still human beings and dehumanizing them does no one any favors. Lol How do you feel about calling cops pigs m8 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2022 08:08
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Somaen posted:Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2022 08:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's absolutely a thing among russians dude and has been for like 20 years It's a thing among Russians the same way BabyFur Denny posted:I think Americans should be sensitive to the fact that a group calling themselves a certain slur doesn't make it ok for anyone outside of that group calling them that. is a thing. Just because "They call themselves that" doesn't make it not a slur when used by outsiders. Herstory Begins Now posted:who tf is even calling them orcs that you're referring to. And it's merely stupid, it's not a slur. It's absolutely a slur. The Ukrainians use it as a slur against Russians. And War Crime Gigolo was calling them 'orcs'. That's why it even came up! Also it sure as poo poo was being used as a slur in the GBS thread until it got stomped down on.
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Jul 24, 2022 08:33
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nah the gbs thread is similar to this one in that 90% of the uses of it in there are from people talking about the origins of the term when some idiot stumbles in to yell about westerners using the term... despite it not being a thing in the thread. seriously if you want to bitch about the term, go to the only thread on the forums that uses it regularly. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2022 08:37
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Kchama posted:It's absolutely a slur. The Ukrainians use it as a slur against Russians. gently caress off with this poo poo, you barely know what both of those proper nouns even mean. Victis fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 09:00
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Do not attack vulnerable groups such as soldiers or police or politicians with mean names
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Jul 24, 2022 09:05
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Kaal posted:France does this all the time. Load-following is very normal. Maybe stop reflexively defending the greenwashing party in the least science-based way possible? The threads you tried to dismiss are packed with links to news and industry sources that support the conclusions. Wildly lashing out against anyone criticizing Scholz is not persuasive. Your source: quote:Hi, I'm Florian, 42 years old. I'm left-wing, green-smelling and proud of it. But you can chase me with romantic ideas like "back to nature". Literally some tech bro blog. Agronox posted:Out of curiosity, do you know what percentage of German natural gas use goes to industrial processes? I tried to find a number and came up empty. Antigravitas posted:Read this: https://ag-energiebilanzen.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/bilanz20d.pdf That exported number should give you pause as well. Everyone ignored the post in April. Maybe I should make a blog about it and post it on Twitter and then to this thread.  Here's some more stats, but I think you'll understand that I can't be arsed to find final 2020 figures instead of preliminary ones.  Note that Germany has a somewhat special place due to its central location and many interconnects. It usually has an export surplus of ~20TWh, though 2022 might go back to the old days of >50TWh due to France. (France is also the reason why some nuclear plants might run longer, and some to-be-decommissioned coal was put on standby, btw)
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Jul 24, 2022 09:05
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Glad to know the Ukraine war is over so this thread can get onto important topics like the sound an A-10 gun makes and whether or not "orc" when used with a soft-R is still a racist term that only people in the in-group can use.
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Jul 24, 2022 09:17
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Was this really started by an off hand remark that wasn't even aimed at Russian soldiers specifically but was about WWI turning its survivors into "orcs"? I don't think I've seen the "usual" use of the term in these forums for god knows how long. Anyway regardless of who is or isn't an orc, I think Russian soldiers should be fed to an orca. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2022 09:24
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To me, it is interesting to note that Tolkien invented the Orcs after his experience in WW1 fighting against Germany. Orcs are not from folklore. There are no ancient tales of Orcs, as there are of Goblins and Dwarves and Elves. Orcs are a mythology born of industrialized warfare.
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Jul 24, 2022 09:28
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 At least we can still call them dorks.
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Jul 24, 2022 09:29
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I personally have stopped using the word 'Ukrainian', I call them the Rohirrim now. There are no Poles to me either, those guys are dwarves.
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Jul 24, 2022 09:36
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oh my god do you all not have anything better to do with your time than argue about whether "orcs" is appropriate terminology for Russian soldiers you can just call them fascists if you want instead of this stupid poo poo inb4 cinci carpet bombs this garbage
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Jul 24, 2022 09:39
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https://twitter.com/dril/status/841892608788041732?lang=en
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Jul 24, 2022 09:54
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Russia's belatedly copping to the Odessa strike https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1551119325846802432?s=20&t=Rw6hz_RmT54xh-3ei9OC5g
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Jul 24, 2022 09:55
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Chill Monster posted:To me, it is interesting to note that Tolkien invented the Orcs after his experience in WW1 fighting against Germany. Orcs are not from folklore. There are no ancient tales of Orcs, as there are of Goblins and Dwarves and Elves. Orcs are a mythology born of industrialized warfare. Orc is used synonymous with Goblin by Tolkien, and that very much is drawn from folklore. Yes, Orcs (and Saruman) draw on anti-modernist themes, but despite the lack of etymological link, there very much is a link to the various boogeymen of Germanic and Anglo-Saxon mythology and folklore. Just like the Dwarves and Elves of Tolkien are based on, but absolutely not mere echoes, of their mythological counterparts. The Dwarves of Norse myths are quite different from the Dwarves of Tolkien. The Dwarven language created by Tolkien has strong semitic roots, and some Dwarves taking their names from Northern European mythology is in many ways Tolkien using the rule of cool to break his own rules. But yes, Tolkien absolutely loathed industry, modernity and warfare. He was one of the few reactionaries who had very little love of nationalism and revanchism. It's also interesting to note that in latter years he expressed regret at making the Orcs inherently and irredeemably evil, as this kind of cruel biologism carried strong echoes of ethno-nationalism. Unlike many of his contemporaries he loathed Hitler and I think it's kind of sad that Tolkien in modern times is often conflated with themes of reactionary fantasy that he openly opposed in his life time. I get why people want to innovate and not just rehash Tolkien, but there's a reason a lot of the hippies were Tolkien-fans back in the day. For my own part, I don't have a problem with orc being used a slur for pillaging and war-criming soldiers. I do have a problem with it being used as a slur for every single soldier of a certain nationality. But I can't blame people for subscribing to a military corollary of ACAB - especially when talking about the side engaging in a genocidal war of conquest and destruction. Of course, not every single Russian is a monster, but I am not sure I think the benefit of doubt applies here. Plenty of good, or just non-horrible, kids and adults are losing their lives fighting for Russia due to bad decisions. That's a tragedy, and it is problematic to cheer for the death of humans. But using orc to express disgust at the concept of invading soldiers pillaging, murdering and raping? I think that is going to stick around after this. If the mods want to ban it in this thread, I understand why and I won't argue against that decision. Were it allowed, I think there's an argument to be made for that as well. It's not necessarily a racist or dehumanizing slur. Just like 'pig' isn't necessarily a dehumanizing slur for cops.
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Jul 24, 2022 09:56
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Hey it's been a while, how's our little thread doing  PerilPastry posted:Russia's belatedly copping to the Odessa strike
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Jul 24, 2022 10:03
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PerilPastry posted:Russia's belatedly copping to the Odessa strike The mighty Ukrainian Navy, a mortal threat to Russian security, had to be attacked the day after the agreement was signed, nothing suspicious there.
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Jul 24, 2022 10:03
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Fritz the Horse posted:oh my god do you all not have anything better to do with your time than argue about whether "orcs" is appropriate terminology for Russian soldiers no one gives a gently caress about the term except idiots who wander in here to yell about it. people using it earnestly have been probed on sight for it since like march or something.
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Jul 24, 2022 10:11
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Various Ukrainians on social media aren't going to stop using it either (for all the reasons outlined upthread). I suggest, as a forum, maybe addressing them as a nation and asking they respect 
Victis fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 10:19
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Jul 24, 2022 10:36
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Fritz the Horse posted:oh my god do you all not have anything better to do with your time than argue about whether "orcs" is appropriate terminology for Russian soldiers From my view this stuff appears to be a "weekend" thing.
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Jul 24, 2022 10:48
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PederP posted:For my own part, I don't have a problem with orc being used a slur for pillaging and war-criming soldiers. I do have a problem with it being used as a slur for every single soldier of a certain nationality. But I can't blame people for subscribing to a military corollary of ACAB - especially when talking about the side engaging in a genocidal war of conquest and destruction. Of course, not every single Russian is a monster, but I am not sure I think the benefit of doubt applies here. Plenty of good, or just non-horrible, kids and adults are losing their lives fighting for Russia due to bad decisions. That's a tragedy, and it is problematic to cheer for the death of humans. But using orc to express disgust at the concept of invading soldiers pillaging, murdering and raping? I think that is going to stick around after this. If the mods want to ban it in this thread, I understand why and I won't argue against that decision. Were it allowed, I think there's an argument to be made for that as well. It's not necessarily a racist or dehumanizing slur. Just like 'pig' isn't necessarily a dehumanizing slur for cops. The Russian side has plenty enough people coerced, often by force, into service, for there to be a room to discriminate between witting combatants, and victims of circumstances. While I'm not a fan of the slur, my view of it as of the time of prominence has been that it's “okay” (but merely so) for Ukrainians to use for therapeutic reasons, when describing the invading soldiers. And only since there's no intrinsic negative connotation to it on the Russian end of things, at that. But that was months ago, and I can't say I've given much thought to it. In any case, it's been barely used in this thread, so I haven't been paying too much attention to the occasional uses of it. In the case of the post that caused this derail, by WAR CRIME GIGOLO, I should've shot that down initially, though. That's not a function of me having a different stance on the issue when the post was made, merely a consequence of me paying less attention to GBS-style posters. I will tighten thread policing in that department, going forward. To avoid future bickering, any uses “orc” in this thread other than to express exasperation about Russian war criminals are explicitly forbidden. In the case like that video where a Russian IFV shot an elderly couple in a car, you'll still be taking chances against my opinion on if your post targets the specific crime or a broader group of people more. Just Another Lurker posted:From my view this stuff appears to be a "weekend" thing. Sunday's traditionally have a wave of poo poo posts, so we're on schedule.
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Jul 24, 2022 11:02
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The hoops SA will jump to just to avoid imposing a blanket 'don't use slurs when posting' rule.
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Jul 24, 2022 11:13
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:This isn't localized to Russia. Wars like this turn people into orcs. Watching your entire class get annihilated in the Somme will make you an anthropoid. Orc is just the closest example that I have heard. I think there is an interesting, but purely speculatory discussion here that is getting lost. The solders of this war will have to reintegrate back into society. After any violent conflict, the solders have to return to society. These people can change the fabric of the society they are returning to. For example, in the US, you can still feel the effects of the Vietnam war today. The shadow isn't as big as it was in the 80s or 90s, but it is still there. Obviously, Russian, Ukrainian, and American societies are very different, but humans returning from a traumatic, violent experience tend to have similar characteristics. Historically speaking, societies tend to have upheavals after wars. In the case of Russia, it seems like there are a lot of negative pressures pushing their society toward fart. The reintegration of their soldiers could have outsized negative ramifications because the Russian State may not have the resources to deal with a bunch of angry, damaged men, who may feel victimized. I am not trying to say they will disintegrate the Russian Federation, but they likely will be a significant societal problem, even if they make up 0.0005% of the total population. How this reintegration will look for Ukraine? I dunno, but Ukraine won't look the same as it did before the war. Materially speaking, the average Ukrainian will be poorer, but other than that, I do not know where to begin to even speculate. Chill Monster fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 11:15
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Alchenar posted:The hoops SA will jump to just to avoid imposing a blanket 'don't use slurs when posting' rule. I mean, I’m with you here, but it would be inconsistent moderation stance for D&D to simultaneously allow calling everyone a oval office if you come from a specific country, have rules explicitly allowing bigoted statements, and me deciding that the thread poster whose grandmother died of injuries suffered during the siege of Mariupol’ is not allowed to cuss with “loving orcs” once. Simultaneously, this is SA, so I won’t be surprised to see someone testing the limits of this, at which point I’ll just  them and consider imposing a blanked ban instead.
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Jul 24, 2022 11:19
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Alchenar posted:The hoops SA will jump to just to avoid imposing a blanket 'don't use slurs when posting' rule. Where does "MAGA-CHUD" fall on the scale?
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Jul 24, 2022 11:29
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Chill Monster posted:I think there is an interesting, but purely speculatory discussion here that is getting lost. The solders of this war will have to reintegrate back into society. The outcome of the war and the social perceptions towards veterans matters a great deal here. The efforts of the state, also beyond the financial aspects, are a reflection of this. If Russia is victorious and this war ushers in a new world order and expands the borders of the federation - these veterans will be viewed far differently than if the war ends in a humiliating collapse. The veterans will have much the same trauma and proportion of awakened monsters in either case, but how they integrate back into society differ greatly in these two scenarios. Humans can to some degree repress the monstrous aspect, remold memories and lie to themselves and their closest family. And much as this applies to Russia, it applies to Ukraine. A great victory and the veterans will be viewed as heroes. A bitter defeat and they may find the return to normalcy without proper recognition of their sacrifices. Both sides are not going to come out with a glorious victory, and it's very possible that one side may face utter defeat and the gain a pyrrhic victory. So, at least one nation will have end with a broken generation of soldiers. Ukraine will either way have thousands upon thousands of victims. Even total victory comes at a great cost when invaded with this kind of brutality. I dearly hope the west will stay true to promises of funding a Ukrainian reconstruction effort. The material reconstruction of homes and workplaces is the foundation upon which wider societal healing can occur. Without this foundation, it is more likely that revanchism and hatred will take root and be passed to future generations, paving the way for new wars. Freezing the war would in my opinion result in the worst of both worlds - both societies, their people and their soldiers being pushed towards a cycle of hatred and war. Those who advocate for negotiations that are not predicated on Russian withdrawal are in my opinion sacrificing the future for a temporary reprieve now. This war has to end with a decisive result. Otherwise it will just reignite later and quite possibly fracture the European unity for good.
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Jul 24, 2022 11:34
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I don't think it's worth losing too much thought on Russia post-war. It is not something anyone but Russia has much agency over. As long as it has expansionist goals it cannot be part of the European community, and the European community is all we can actually meaningfully influence. If and when Russia stops being belligerent, by all means offer a path to rapprochement, but that can't happen as long as Putin is in power. Ukraine's post-war future, on the other hand, will and must deeply involve the rest of Europe and especially the EU. This is worrying me. Right now the Ukrainian state is being kept afloat through grants and loans, but there will come a time that the EU will have to come up with some truly large-scale aid to pull Ukraine fully into its orbit, and I'm not sure there's the political unity for it. There will also be a reckoning in Ukraine because there is no way they are getting into the EU quickly, and if EU gridlock isn't solved, they may not even get in despite working hard to fulfil the requirements for joining. That's years away, but the desire to join the EU is what kicked off this whole thing. It would be a disaster if it didn't work out.
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Jul 24, 2022 12:54
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can i still refer to slovenes as elves?
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Jul 24, 2022 13:42
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FishBulbia posted:can i still refer to slovenes as elves? You must specify that they’re high elves, since they live in the mountains.
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Jul 24, 2022 13:43
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You must specify that they’re high elves, since they live in the mountains. What does that make the Swiss?
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Jul 24, 2022 13:50
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What does that make the Swiss? The goblins from harry potter.
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Jul 24, 2022 14:13
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BBC reporting on Ukraine's moves towards Kherson. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62283196 I don't think there is much fresh here for avid thread watchers, but it seems like these moves are indeed firming up into a real attempt to retake the city in the short term.
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Jul 24, 2022 14:30
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What does that make the Swiss? Schwiizer Hellebarden! Hopp Schwiiz!
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Jul 24, 2022 14:31
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Antigravitas posted:I don't think it's worth losing too much thought on Russia post-war. It is not something anyone but Russia has much agency over. As long as it has expansionist goals it cannot be part of the European community, and the European community is all we can actually meaningfully influence. If and when Russia stops being belligerent, by all means offer a path to rapprochement, but that can't happen as long as Putin is in power. Insightful post that ends with “shouldn’t have worn that dress.”
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Jul 24, 2022 14:45
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