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silence_kit posted:Yeah I agree, companies in the global economy do not produce carbon emissions just for fun or because they are James Bond or cartoon villains--they do it to provide products & services for people living in the first world, at levels of service and at prices that people in the first world have become accustomed to. Consumer preferences are a huge driver of the global economy and are way under-rated by SA politics goons. i was being sarcastic op PHUO: a lot of people citing that 71% of corporations statistic just want to have their cake and eat it too, and if changing the things one can change about one's lifestyle to help with this end is simultaneously too much to ask for and also not enough and something people shouldn't bother asking, i have to wonder exactly what kind of green socialist utopia goons are envisioning. Jerry Manderbilt has a new favorite as of 14:40 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 14:37
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:i was being sarcastic op https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhoj0ulkmUw
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Jul 24, 2022 14:44
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:PHUO: a lot of people citing that 71% of corporations statistic just want to have their cake and eat it too, and if changing the things one can change about one's lifestyle to help with this end is simultaneously too much to ask for and also not enough and something people shouldn't bother asking, i have to wonder exactly what kind of green socialist utopia goons are envisioning.
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Jul 24, 2022 14:46
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:i was being sarcastic op I agree with what you are saying and am extending it. During the height of the pandemic things like shortages and price hikes were wildly unpopular, even among goons. But in a society more committed to environmentalism, people, including goons, would have to lower their expectations on price, service, etc. to levels below what was experienced during the height of the pandemic. silence_kit has a new favorite as of 14:59 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 14:54
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Frankly I don't even see what the big deal is. When the world heats up we can just run our A/Cs more.
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Jul 24, 2022 15:00
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silence_kit posted:People in the first world overwhelmingly want cars, suburbs, free two-day shipping, constant availability and access to almost any kind of consumer product, food, or medicine, etc. and companies are providing these things for them. The 1% didn't hold a gun to their head and force people living in rich countries to want these things or come to expect them. Do they? I want to just live in a reasonable way with my loved ones. I don't think most people want a lot of things, the majority of it comes from being told what things they want. Marketing works.
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Jul 24, 2022 15:02
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Josef bugman posted:
My condolences
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Jul 24, 2022 15:15
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silence_kit posted:People in the first world overwhelmingly want cars, suburbs, free two-day shipping, constant availability and access to almost any kind of consumer product, food, or medicine, etc. and companies are providing these things for them. The 1% didn't hold a gun to their head and force people living in rich countries to want these things or come to expect them. this is an unhealthy reaction to your own helplessness
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Jul 24, 2022 15:15
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Josef bugman posted:Do they? I want to just live in a reasonable way with my loved ones. I don't think most people want a lot of things, the majority of it comes from being told what things they want. Marketing works. I'm not inclined to believe especially in this case that the media/society has brainwashed citizens in rich countries into enjoying creature comforts. Ignoring this particular case, I don't know, it isn't always straightforward to determine cause and effect. Is society/the media a reflection of popular values, or does it indoctrinate people into a set of beliefs? I'm not inclined to mostly believe that it is the latter. The latter is certainly a popular belief among SA politics goons. Their theories of society, politics, etc. do tend to involve global conspiracy more often than not. It is how they rationalize to themselves why their political views are so unpopular. The only reason why almost everyone could possibly disagree with Goon political views, which in their mind are sooo obviously correct, is because they have been brainwashed into doing so. silence_kit has a new favorite as of 16:07 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 15:23
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hawowanlawow posted:this is an unhealthy reaction to your own helplessness How so? If anything I think not attributing popular beliefs to mass brainwashing by the media & global conspiracy is the healthier political opinion. It is very hard to find a SA politics poster whose theory of the world DOESN'T involve one kind of global conspiracy or another. silence_kit has a new favorite as of 16:53 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 15:24
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Nearly no one likes driving. We do it because it's required in nearly all of the US and you have to be incredibly privileged to exist in one of the few areas that allow a carless life here Also lol at anyone reading this living in the western world criticizing anyone for climate inaction. It's your fault. Pearl clutching about which individual is doing more harm is dumb as poo poo and missing the point
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Jul 24, 2022 15:25
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It's easy to see consumers as equally responsible for their participation in the system, you can't sell the world if no one's buying after all, but corporations are also hugely influential in creating demand though marketing. For every dollar spent informing the public on what they can do to curb climate change or wealth inequality or discrimination, a thousand times more is spent telling us "Don't worry about all that, life is better with Product™". Brainwashing is a real thing to which humans are susceptible but for some reason when a business does it, that's just capitalism baby!
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Jul 24, 2022 15:28
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I could put a gun in my mouth right now and drop my carbon footprint to 0, and the world will still burn.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:15
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oldpainless posted:My condolences That's fair. hawowanlawow posted:this is an unhealthy reaction to your own helplessness Also this. It feels more like "you need to make better choices" aimed at those least able to change things when feckless bags of poo poo are spending millions on private jets and stock buybacks. silence_kit posted:I'm not inclined to believe especially in this case that the media/society has brainwashed citizens in rich countries into enjoying creature comforts. I think almost all of us largely want and enjoy them, and have come to expect them. Your inclination to believe is not really here or there. We don't have control of much and blame, or responsibility, needs to be apportioned correctly. Manager Hoyden posted:Also lol at anyone reading this living in the western world criticizing anyone for climate inaction. It's your fault. Pearl clutching about which individual is doing more harm is dumb as poo poo and missing the point The best one can do is try our best,but that isn't really enough.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:23
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Byzantine posted:I could put a gun in my mouth right now and drop my carbon footprint to 0, and the world will still burn. This is the real problem. You can make all the high minded arguments you want, but the reality is that there's no coming back from where we are and where we're going. I still recycle, do my best to limit my driving and conspicuous consumption, but the truth is that even were I to abandon everything and live on some farm somewhere dedicated to carbon offset, nothing would change. It's really sad.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:25
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sephiRoth IRA posted:This is the real problem. You can make all the high minded arguments you want, but the reality is that there's no coming back from where we are and where we're going. I still recycle, do my best to limit my driving and conspicuous consumption, but the truth is that even were I to abandon everything and live on some farm somewhere dedicated to carbon offset, nothing would change. It's really sad. Same. This is the problem. I know that my choices cannot be better than what they are now, I try my best to help out where I can, but doing what I think might be necessary would get all of us banned. The other choice is my own death and, well, I know how much that will hurt people.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:44
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Plus, in another predictable example of how capitalism ruins everything, people are regularly tricked into harming the environment when they try to make a good choice See recycling contracts and the massively hosed up concept of the carbon credit
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Jul 24, 2022 16:50
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Some of this holier-than-thou moralizing sounds like the progressive version of being angry at poor people for buying playstations or snack foods. They should be living in empty cubes, staring at the blank wall as they enjoy their rice and beans. It's always someone else that should make the sacrifice. X person doesn't drive a car, but eats more beef in a month than I do in a year. Who's the bad guy and who's the moral guy? Whichever makes the speaker the moral guy. You're part of the problem if you aren't sleeping rough, scavenging your needs, and spending all your non-scavenger time protesting and/or launching the revolution. Sorry, that's the world we live in. People deserve happiness. Feed your family and take care of yourself or there's even less hope, because guess what, depressed scavengers estranged from society do not the revolution make.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:54
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Manager Hoyden posted:Plus, in another predictable example of how capitalism ruins everything, people are regularly tricked into harming the environment when they try to make a good choice Man do not remind me The recycling thing pisses me off to no end. I try not to think about how much of my recycling bin lands in a landfill.
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Jul 24, 2022 16:58
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Some of this holier-than-thou moralizing sounds like the progressive version of being angry at poor people for buying playstations or snack foods. They should be living in empty cubes, staring at the blank wall as they enjoy their rice and beans. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that people in the first world are monsters for wanting creature comforts. I don't hold myself to a different standard when judging their actions. I pretty much make all of the same decisions that they do. I participate in the global economy, enjoy, have become accustomed to, and expect all of the things which are a part of the quality of life in the first world. I just don't think it is accurate, healthy, or productive to attribute the popular preferences of citizens of first world countries to global conspiracy, mass brainwashing, etc. For example, if an American politician were to propose a series of austerity measures designed to improve the environment, they would not only be crucified by the people who run companies which produce the products that Americans enjoy, they would overwhelmingly be crucified by the public response as well. silence_kit has a new favorite as of 17:11 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 17:09
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silence_kit posted:Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that people in the first world are monsters for wanting creature comforts. I don't hold myself to a different standard when judging their actions. I pretty much make all of the same decisions that they do. I participate in the global economy, enjoy, have become accustomed to, and expect all of the things which are a part of the quality of life in the first world. Big lol at the idea of an American politician (in a position of actual power) proposing austerity measures
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Jul 24, 2022 17:11
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sephiRoth IRA posted:Big lol at the idea of an American politician (in a position of actual power) proposing austerity measures That's right. It would never happen. If it were somehow to happen, in addition to the corporate opposition, there would be huge public opposition against the idea, and not just because people have been brainwashed by KKKorporations and the MainStream Media into opposing it.
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Jul 24, 2022 17:18
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Lots of Americans (mostly republicans) also believe that we are in the end times now and the Rapture is gonna happen soon, so limiting consumption etc. is going against god's will.
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Jul 24, 2022 17:26
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silence_kit posted:That's right. It would never happen. If it were somehow to happen, in addition to the corporate opposition, there would be huge public opposition against the idea, and not just because people have been brainwashed by KKKorporations and the MainStream Media into opposing it. I mean yes, people are selfish idiots, film at eleven. What's your point? If you went back in time and gave people in the fifties these comforts and then took them away, they'd be pissed too. The only difference is that in addition to people being selfish idiots, they're also very easy to manipulate, and thus everything is much, much worse compared to what it would be in the absence of media/marketing manipulation. This is not a mutually exclusive proposition?
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Jul 24, 2022 17:27
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doverhog posted:Lots of Americans (mostly republicans) also believe that we are in the end times now and the Rapture is gonna happen soon, so limiting consumption etc. is going against god's will. Lol where in the world did you get that idea
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Jul 24, 2022 17:29
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Manager Hoyden posted:Lol where in the world did you get that idea This is actually something many evangelicals believe
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Jul 24, 2022 17:33
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Trump Pence Trumpets Gods chosen instrument
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Jul 24, 2022 17:40
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sephiRoth IRA posted:I mean yes, people are selfish idiots, film at eleven. What's your point? If you went back in time and gave people in the fifties these comforts and then took them away, they'd be pissed too. The only difference is that in addition to people being selfish idiots, they're also very easy to manipulate, and thus everything is much, much worse compared to what it would be in the absence of media/marketing manipulation. I wouldn’t say that people are selfish idiots or are easily manipulated. I just think that people are mainly self-interested and that is just a normal part of being human. I think attributing opposition to extreme measures to improve the environment to conspiracy is not accurate and is a misunderstanding of the problem.
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Jul 24, 2022 17:43
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christmas boots posted:This is actually something many evangelicals believe I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but the claim is ridiculous on its face The venn diagram overlap of people who are end-times evangelicals and believe in anthropogenic climate change is already microscopic, and on top of that the claim requires a spectacular child-like ignorance of the religious tenet to begin with I would bet everything I own that the number of people who think God wants them to destroy the world through buying things is exactly zero
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Jul 24, 2022 17:44
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sephiRoth IRA posted:This is the real problem. You can make all the high minded arguments you want, but the reality is that there's no coming back from where we are and where we're going. I still recycle, do my best to limit my driving and conspicuous consumption, but the truth is that even were I to abandon everything and live on some farm somewhere dedicated to carbon offset, nothing would change. It's really sad. Overthrowing the capitalist system is a matter of survival at this point, and I'm not kidding at all by saying that. I know it's easier said than done, and that's part of the problem: capitalism doesn't "need" any of us except as grease on its gears to keep the "great" engine of the Free Market (tm) going.
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Jul 24, 2022 17:45
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Manager Hoyden posted:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but the claim is ridiculous on its face They don't believe in it because it's a leftist lie, and it wouldn't matter if it was true anyway because climate is controlled by god. It's not a rational or consistent position, but neither are any of their other positions. What "religious tenet" are you talking about?
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Jul 24, 2022 17:51
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Evangelicals in high places are absolutely using the End Times as an excuse to ignore the environment, and they have been for decades. For a famous example, look up James Watt, the Secretary of the Interior under Reagan, who once stated before Congress(!) that there was no need to spend much effort on conservation because "I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns."
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Jul 24, 2022 18:11
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silence_kit posted:That's right. It would never happen. If it were somehow to happen, in addition to the corporate opposition, there would be huge public opposition against the idea, and not just because people have been brainwashed by KKKorporations and the MainStream Media into opposing it. No one is talking about brainwashing conspiracies here, as far as I can tell. Its not a conspiracy to say that companies invent demand for things that no one ever asked for but once it becomes available is then seen as an entitlement, eg 2 day shipping from Amazon. There's a push and pull between corporate marketing and consumer demand that creates a systemic problem the individual has no real way to address. Manager Hoyden posted:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but the claim is ridiculous on its face It makes plenty of sense if religion is being used as a way of rationalizing why every horrible, selfish thing you believe and do is fine actually. Its narcissists prayer poo poo, climate change isn't real but if it is it doesn't matter because we're all getting raptured any minute now anyway so whatever I do is OK, God wants me to have this F350. Its not that they believe in climate change, its that they don't care one way or another
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Jul 24, 2022 18:15
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Evangelicals think that god giving man "dominion over the Earth" means that they don't have to care about conservation or the environment, because hey - god told us that we have control and can do whatever we want! It's a variation of the idea that being "saved" means that their sins are automatically forgiven.
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Jul 24, 2022 18:15
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doverhog posted:They don't believe in it because it's a leftist lie, and it wouldn't matter if it was true anyway because climate is controlled by god. It's not a rational or consistent position, but neither are any of their other positions. Yes I agree they don't care about climate change because they believe it is a leftist lie That is a far, far step from believing that climate change is real, man-made, and is in fact the mandate of God to help along The "religious tenet" is the actual expected chain of events that brings about the apocalypse. Climate change is not on that list. Our Israel policies on the other hand...
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Jul 24, 2022 18:35
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Evangelicals think that god giving man "dominion over the Earth" means that they don't have to care about conservation or the environment, because hey - god told us that we have control and can do whatever we want! It's a variation of the idea that being "saved" means that their sins are automatically forgiven. I mean, the great thing about religion is that you can talk to eight different members of clergy to get eight different interpretation of God's Perfect Word. When I used to go to a church when I was a teenager, it was an amazing place, where everyone was nice and the idea of going to Hell was almost unimaginable because it was all about how cool God is and how we're basically just created to worship him so his feelings don't get hurt and make sure his planet stays pretty. Every single other church I've tried to attend in my life has been the opposite, though... that we should destroy the Earth and we're all going to Hell because God's a loving psychopath who not just gave us permission, but told us to do it. Shrug. I know, religion being inconsistent and bad is a hot take that might take a moment to absorb.
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Jul 24, 2022 19:05
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credburn posted:I mean, the great thing about religion is that you can talk to eight different members of clergy to get eight different interpretation of God's Perfect Word. When I used to go to a church when I was a teenager, it was an amazing place, where everyone was nice and the idea of going to Hell was almost unimaginable because it was all about how cool God is and how we're basically just created to worship him so his feelings don't get hurt and make sure his planet stays pretty. Every single other church I've tried to attend in my life has been the opposite, though... that we should destroy the Earth and we're all going to Hell because God's a loving psychopath who not just gave us permission, but told us to do it. Shrug. Yep. It's a bit funny when some of them talk about the "one true way". Which way is that - treating scripture as inerrant? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? Judaism? The Bible is meant to speak for itself but because it's a collection of sixty-odd ancient books, it has a variety of different takes on almost everything.
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Jul 24, 2022 19:09
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A good start is to ignore the teachings of any American church, 90% of which don't have a goddamn shred of value to contribute and understand Christianity the way some tourist fresh from the Guinness brewery tour in ~the old country~ understands Ireland. Like gently caress 1500 years of theology by the smartest and best funded people on a whole continent, here's a failed lawyer with a credit card machine who has interpreted a book Strategic Tea has a new favorite as of 00:01 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 23:58
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Strategic Tea posted:
Your dad bought that 50 hour YouTube course on Israel and Revelation too?!
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Jul 25, 2022 00:04
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800peepee51doodoo posted:No one is talking about brainwashing conspiracies here, as far as I can tell. Its not a conspiracy to say that companies invent demand for things that no one ever asked for but once it becomes available is then seen as an entitlement, eg 2 day shipping from Amazon.
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