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Chikimiki posted:Also lots of young voters only know Le Pen Junior, and haven't known her father who is even more of an insane racist. I have a bunch of people in my family who were overtly against Le Pen senior but it turned out they were chuds all along and are overtly supporting Marine Le Pen (or heck, even Zemmour) and were only against Le Pen senior because of his lack of  , so there's that too
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Apr 25, 2022 15:37
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It seems to me that the political environment of Europe is more depressing than America. At least the American youth aren’t as relatively pro-fascist. At least overtly. Or maybe I’m a dumbass.
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Apr 25, 2022 16:16
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Its just different. You need to assess it properly either as an independent political culture on its own merits/faults or else on a wider comparative global level. Viewing every other country solely through a "how does this compare to America" worldview is incredibly limited (and why Americans get made fun of a lot).
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Apr 25, 2022 16:31
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punk rebel ecks posted:It seems to me that the political environment of Europe is more depressing than America. Well, Europe's got twice the population of the US and forty-four countries. I don't think you can easily compare the political landscapes of the two.
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Apr 25, 2022 16:36
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Also it's a matter of the political landscape, with what parties are around and what they're willing to cater to.
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Apr 25, 2022 16:40
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I don't think it's a difference in people but a difference in leadership. Like there were fears that Trump might have been able to combine leftist economic policies with maximum racism during the early days of his administration, but it quickly became apparent that US chud leaders are completely incapable of doing anything other than try to "own the libs". The European chud leaders are much more able to pretend to offer policy and governance in between the racism and the corruption, but that makes them more dangerous. The European fash leadership can keep the mask on some of the time, and their American counterparts can't.
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Apr 25, 2022 16:53
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While the whole "demographics are destiny" poo poo is just that, I do feel it's worth remembering that half of all American youths fall into the racial out-group for their brand of fascists. How popular are they among White Zoomers?
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Apr 25, 2022 17:13
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golden bubble posted:Yeah what I gathered from some discussions is that they basically say that they want to be like Switzerland or Norway or Canada: leftist policies but harsh on immigration. Add some incel & TERF crap, fear mongering about islam, and you have it. It's also insane how not even the left can make this line of attack against the far right, or doesn't seem to think of it, while far-right parties vote against any kind of policy that would improve the life of the working class (or young people, for that matter) every single time, in national parliaments as well as in the EP. But it's never brought up. Not by opponents and not by the media. On the other hand, the "yes but Le Pen/Wilders/Van Grieken/random neo-fascist ghoul has left-wing talking points and I vote for those!" is also a convenient excuse for racists or racist-adjacent voters to vote for them. Most of the people who vote for these guys know exactly who they are voting for. They just don't think the heel of the boot is eventually going to crush them too, or they don't mind the pain as long as minorities suffer harder.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:27
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Blut posted:Its just different. You need to assess it properly either as an independent political culture on its own merits/faults or else on a wider comparative global level. Viewing every other country solely through a "how does this compare to America" worldview is incredibly limited (and why Americans get made fun of a lot). Oh I don’t use American culture “as the default”, it’s just something I noticed.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:32
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h/t to cinci zoo sniper in the Ukraine war thread for this. These are pretty incredible numbers, Putin has managed to almost completely unite the EU population for once in purpose it seems:quote:A Flash Eurobarometer survey in all EU Member States published today shows large consensus among EU citizens in favour of the EU's response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_2784 75% being in favour of greater military cooperation within the EU must be particularly welcome news to Brussels. This war is going to really help the cause of those wanting a deeper, more integrated EU.
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May 6, 2022 14:24
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Pope Hilarius II posted:It's also insane how not even the left can make this line of attack against the far right, or doesn't seem to think of it, while far-right parties vote against any kind of policy that would improve the life of the working class (or young people, for that matter) every single time, in national parliaments as well as in the EP. But it's never brought up. Not by opponents and not by the media. I kind of agree with your point, but you should beware making such broad statements. Belgian socialist Rousseau used his 1 May speech almost entirely to bash far right on how they voted against working class policies. So it does happen. That said, the media reacted by repeatedly asking him "but what about the far left?", so you can't have everything.
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May 6, 2022 14:41
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Walh Hara posted:I kind of agree with your point, but you should beware making such broad statements. True, Rousseau did so and did so before, but he's one of the few. Though on the other hand, it doesn't help that he frequently parrots dumb talking points from the far-right, too, like his dogwhistle statement about Molenbeek. A charitative reading is that he empathizes with the unfortunate but frequent racist reflexes among white Flemings, but it sure as hell didn't look that way. That's another thing that always bugged me: how hard is it to say for mainstream politicians "I understand why some people harbour racist thoughts and feelings, but I don't condone these things and racism has never been a solution to anything."
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May 7, 2022 14:35
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steinrokkan posted:Macron's platform is basically the younger you are, the longer life of drudgery and the more crushing financial bondage you can look forward to. Macron's idea is that young people should get married with someone 25 years older than them to ensure financial security.
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May 7, 2022 16:28
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 This is a pretty great zinger.
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Jul 23, 2022 23:48
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Ukraine appreciates the good burn.
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Jul 24, 2022 00:07
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Spain doesn’t import Russian gas, so what does Ukraine have to do with it?
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Jul 25, 2022 10:43
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They are slam-dunking GERMANIA, and if you can't connect the dots from there, welp 
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Jul 25, 2022 10:49
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/jul/24/italy-mario-draghi-europe-eu-far-right Italy is heading for a right wing government. According to Politico, it was Berlusconi who organized for Draghi to fall. I wasn't even aware that he was playing an important role in politics again. And in football I guess too, now that his Monza is in Serie A. How many strokes, scandals, electoral defeats, criminal investigations and business failures can he survive?
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Jul 25, 2022 10:58
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Doctor Malaver posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/jul/24/italy-mario-draghi-europe-eu-far-right As many as he wants as long as there is a part of the electorate as morally and intellectually void as he is.
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Jul 25, 2022 11:37
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I guess he will be at it until someone finds and destroys his phylactery.
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Jul 25, 2022 11:58
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DarkCrawler posted:As many as he wants as long as there is a I think Berlusconi's 2022 base is mostly made up of literally senile, uneducated elders who have voted for him for close to four decades and don't feel like learning a new face or name. His then-younger Northern base - professionals and small entrepreneurs who enjoy political centrism and a not too harsh enforcement of the tax code - has long since moved to either PD or Lega. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 11:59
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NihilCredo posted:I think Berlusconi's 2022 base is mostly made up of literally senile, uneducated elders who have voted for him for close to four decades and don't feel like learning a new face or name. Lega is collapsing right now, all in favour of our fash adjacent Marine Le Pen clone party.
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Jul 25, 2022 13:04
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Also our ostensibly center-left party has completely gone the way of the American democrats and in lieu of offering any coherent plan or vision they just offer business as usual, a bit less cruel than the other bad guys would do if they came to power. Just absolute clownshoes poo poo, it will be a goddamn bloodbath. From the way they are being rehabilitated in the media, it also looks like the center-left are even planning to take on board some of the center-right exiles from the previous berlusconi governments, some of the absolute worst scum of the earth ex-ministers who did loving scorched earth on our public services back when they were in power and continued to wreak havoc even now. Because you're either for Draghi or a traitor to the Fatherland, and the exiles are for Draghi, as opposed to the dirty populists. Lol, and furthermore, lmao
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Jul 25, 2022 14:01
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I still find it funny that some people are arguing for the inevitability of further EU integration while we're approaching an absolute clusterfuck of economical and political issues that might eventually even break up the EU. (Via economical crisis, populist-fascist power grabs, and further resource pressure that brings more competition between nations fighting for pieces of a rapidly shrinking cake). I'm not saying that the first stages of our approaching emergency will not see several strong moves towards integration from the EU bureaucracy and the centrist governments of DE and FR - but they will have little chance for medium-term success, because the EU is just not built for a real crisis and most of the tools it needed to survive were amputated in its infancy or never implemented at all.
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Jul 26, 2022 06:25
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Well yeah that's why we want federalization asap 
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Jul 26, 2022 08:16
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mobby_6kl posted:Well yeah that's why we want federalization asap  Who is we? Are you German?
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Jul 26, 2022 10:18
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Rappaport posted:
Not sure the Germans want that tbh. I wouldn't mind it.
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Jul 26, 2022 11:44
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Rappaport posted:
We as in the Federalist
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Jul 26, 2022 12:02
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mobby_6kl posted:We as in the Federalist Good luck Have we even had a good federalization slap-fight in here recently? It feels like the Ukraine thread took all the wind out of this thread, the usual Euro cats-in-a-bag-thread 
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Jul 26, 2022 12:34
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Rappaport posted:Good luck Alternatively, the US model of federalization.
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Jul 26, 2022 13:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We just need to break up Germany and France first. No state larger than 10 million. I mean, no objections from me, but I doubt either of those nations would want to. Maybe former West would like to eject the former East Germania? A Buttery Pastry posted:Alternatively, the US model of federalization. This is what I meant with my latter line. If you peek into the USPol thread in any of its iterations, you'll likely find an argument revolving around tiny states (by population) getting the same amount of senators as California.
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Jul 26, 2022 13:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Alternatively, the US model of federalization. I just can't see Germany accepting anything resembling automatic fiscal transfers, and,without that, any political project is dead. Plus all of the other excellent points ITT.
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Jul 26, 2022 14:02
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The EU covid fund was an absolutely huge step towards federalization. Issuing common EU debt was something unthinkable even 2 years ago. Now that its been used once it'll be (comparatively) easy to use it again for emergencies - say for a massive Green New Deal fund in a few years time when no EU country is on track to meet its 2030 climate change goals (as is guaranteed to be the case), or next time theres a financial or international relations crisis. And once it comes to paying off this debt something like a 1% EU-wide VAT is a relatively politically easy/logical/required step. Its a timeline of decades obviously, but its still a very clear movement in the deeper and further integration progress. Especially now that the UK and its malign influence on integration is gone.
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Jul 26, 2022 16:14
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Blut posted:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/07/26/world/ukraine-russia-war?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur#eu-russia-ukraine-gas-deal quote:Because several E.U. countries — including Poland, Greece and Spain — with more modest consumption and adequate stocks saw a uniform reduction of use as unfair, the plan also spells out other grounds for more modest consumption reductions. For example, countries that have overshot their storage-filling target can compensate by cutting their use less. So they did eventually sign but only after a clause specifically lowering the requirements for countries that have NOT lived beyond their means energy-wise. Everyone signed after all the extra terms were added, except for the Hungarians. Speaking of which, why is the Putin-loving, near fash Hungarian government still in the EU?
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Jul 26, 2022 16:33
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Blut posted:The EU covid fund was an absolutely huge step towards federalization. Issuing common EU debt was something unthinkable even 2 years ago. Further fiscal integration seems like the most monkey's paw method of moving towards a federal European state. The populist parties (once they have their internal struggles and/or get replacement parties due to their divorce from Vova) all over "northern" Europe will be positively thrilled at attacking the EU apparatus for throwing tax payer money to the irresponsible "south", and presumably the "south" would also argue that they cannot afford taxes levied by Brussels. But on the positive side, at least Germany have had their wish at long last and perfidious Albion no longer stands in the way of continental domination?
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Jul 26, 2022 17:16
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golden bubble posted:https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/07/26/world/ukraine-russia-war?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur#eu-russia-ukraine-gas-deal It was extremely difficult to actually kick a country from the EU the last I checked, even one led by Orban
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Jul 26, 2022 17:19
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forkboy84 posted:It was extremely difficult to actually kick a country from the EU the last I checked, even one led by Orban There's no expulsion mechanism, only suspension. And it needs to be a unanimous decision by the other member states. It would just get blocked by Poland at the very least.
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Jul 26, 2022 17:29
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It also took all but the most egregious violations on the part of Orban for the hard right EPP to at the very least stop coddling him and I do not feel particularly hopeful about them having more sanctions in store for him in the future
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Jul 26, 2022 17:45
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Rappaport posted:This is what I meant with my latter line. If you peek into the USPol thread in any of its iterations, you'll likely find an argument revolving around tiny states (by population) getting the same amount of senators as California. Yet if we want the smaller members to be able to defend themselves from utter domination by germany and france, something like that is kinda required. Even if it makes people complain a lot.
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Jul 26, 2022 19:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:Yet if we want the smaller members to be able to defend themselves from utter domination by germany and france, something like that is kinda required. Even if it makes people complain a lot. Yes, I know, and this is a good talking point against federalization! Finland (since we're both Finnish) is the Kainuu of Europe, not a single soul in Germania gives two burnt wooden pennies about our fortunes, and trying to force-feed them the idea that they should, in whatever form a federal EU would take, would be a major political no-no. And since the EU is a project aimed at keeping Germania and France from starting wars against one another, we're kind of stuck.
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Jul 26, 2022 19:05
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