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The C wire doesn't provide power, R does that. C gives you a neutral/ground that old style thermostats never needed. If blue is landed at a C terminal at your air handler it should work. If you know how to work a meter check you are getting 0v ac relative to the metal cabinet.
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Jul 15, 2022 03:41
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MRC48B posted:The C wire doesn't provide power, R does that. Ah, google has failed me. I have a meter, I'll check that this weekend.
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Jul 15, 2022 11:44
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He's a pic of the board up in the attic. (and I have another pic showing the wires are all actually going to the harness going down to the thermostat). Definitely looks hooked up. The angle is weird and makes the post misaligned, they're just tall posts.  edit: Ok so I metered it by connecting 1 lead to the R and then cycling the other lead through each wires. The blue C was reading 0/.2. So def no power there. All the other lines read 27 volts? edit 2: Ok again... I don't think those are the wires I thought they were. At the thermostat the wire has the RYGWC and then an Orange and Two Blacks. Not like that bundle which is missing those. Instead the thicker bundle that is looping through has the colors I'm looking for. And sure enough if I follow the thicker blue one it goes to a 24VC port on the back of the board. That goes through a 2A breaker and some other things. I have more pics incoming. BonoMan fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 19:39
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Dumb question, if I have a gas furnace as part of a dual fuel setup with a heat pump, the furnace is acting as the air handler/blower and will work for that function without any gas at all, correct? Like gas totally shut off? (I know this is a 🚩 post but I am curious.)
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Jul 16, 2022 18:37
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Infinotize posted:Dumb question, if I have a gas furnace as part of a dual fuel setup with a heat pump, the furnace is acting as the air handler/blower and will work for that function without any gas at all, correct? Like gas totally shut off? (I know this is a 🚩 post but I am curious.) Yes the blower can run without heat or cooling being on. It's the "fan" mode on your thermostat. If you tried to run your gas furnace without the gas on it would detect that and not function properly.
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Jul 16, 2022 19:13
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Makes sense, thanks!
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Jul 16, 2022 19:24
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H110Hawk posted:I pray it is way jankier looking. Jaded Burnout posted:Oh it will be! Motronic posted:Thank you for your service to the thread. You perverts are gonna love this one.      
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Jul 17, 2022 11:24
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*sigh*
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Jul 17, 2022 14:43
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The LP furnace at our relatively new (to us) cabin was having trouble kicking in reliably and the blower was making a good awful racket. Guess we found the cause. The squirrels got out.  Have a new blower on there and, perhaps not surprisingly, seems to be working just fine. Don't really need it at the moment, but being without heat in the Upper Peninsula in the winter would indeed suck. I'm sure we'll want to replace the furnace itself at some point, the one in there is a Carrier 80% efficiency one. Thankfully, my father-in-law does heating repair, so I will have good guidance when the time comes.
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Jul 17, 2022 15:44
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guidance is great. your issue will be parts availability.
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Jul 17, 2022 15:55
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MRC48B posted:guidance is great. your issue will be parts availability. Thankfully, the current furnace works fine (old blower aside) so there's no immediate need and we can wait for what we need to arrive when we decide to pull the trigger.
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Jul 17, 2022 16:19
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What happened to traditional, cheap, stranded fiberglass air filters like everyone used for the last 50+ years? I can't find any in the size I need, even online (except in large quantities, which would not be convenient). I mainly care about airflow, power efficiency, and low cost. I don't need a high degree of air filtration. My central system has a smallish filter area and I don't think it will work too well with a dense pleated filter. Actually, this leads me to a related question. Originally, my central air & furnace (3 ton unit) was designed/installed so intake air was drawn from two return air vents, roughly 12x24" each. The fan/furnace unit sits in a cabinet directly above the air return openings, so there's no intake duct, it's more like an intake chamber below the unit. Each of those return air vents had a panel-type filter. This was roughly 576 sq. in of total filtered area. There was no filter (or possibly an extremely coarse one) at the furnace itself. When the system was replaced about 10 years ago, the new system was installed so that the same return air panels were used, but a single 14x25 filter was installed directly at the base/intake of the fan/furnace. The filter housing is basically a part of the unit. (This only provides ~350 sq in. of filter area, through which the entire system flow must pass.) The air was no longer filtered at the return air panels. When I questioned this, the tech told me that the unit was designed this way, and that it would be fine. But would it be better to remove the single 14x25 filter at the unit, and instead use two filters at the return air ducts like the original system? It seems like that would result in a lower pressure drop and better airflow. The old way (filtering air only at the return) seems intuitively more efficient, but I guess there was a higher risk of rodents or debris getting into the fan/furnace system. Number_6 fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 17, 2022 |
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Jul 17, 2022 20:44
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They stopped making "horsehair" filters because everyone went to high merv in order to improve IAQ/fight covid*. that and supply chain issues due to The Circumstances means those production lines got shut down and switched to the tighter filters. Good riddance. horsehairs were garbage and just ensured that you got a cement like layer of the finer dust caked onto the coils or heat exchanger in a few years. RE: your question, more filter surface area is always better. Assuming there aren't holes in the return plenum, (box, chamber, whatever you wish to call it) two larger filters will serve you better. *High merv filters do not actually help with covid** **Unless you mount them directly in front of your face
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Jul 17, 2022 23:27
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Jaded Burnout posted:You perverts are gonna love this one. It's beautiful. Function and found materials over form all the way.
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Jul 18, 2022 01:35
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Two inch takeoff from the supplemental condenser loop. Hilariously, NORMALLY the supplemental loop has butterfly valves right after the floor's wall penetration but in this case, they felt it better to do the wall penetration, have a takeoff and THEN put the floor shutoff valves. It's under about 100 pounds of pressure at all times. The last time anything from this loop went, it was a 3/8" line that dumped several thousand gallons so if this went it would have been a case of don't bother coming in tomorrow because there won't be anything left.
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Jul 18, 2022 01:54
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nadmonk posted:The LP furnace at our relatively new (to us) cabin was having trouble kicking in reliably and the blower was making a good awful racket. This raises a dumb question I didn't know I had.. what's the point of that little round right angle bit of metal? The (aftermarket) powervent on my water heater has one, and I could never quite figure out what it was for.
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Jul 19, 2022 01:52
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Looks like it probably controls a damper.
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Jul 19, 2022 02:11
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its a damper for tuning the air/fuel mixture. usually only important if you switch between LP and natural gas.
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Jul 19, 2022 02:55
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From what I can tell it looks like I’m due for at least a repair of my oil boiler if not a huge replacement. Original furnace with the house from 1988 and original 275 gallon oil tank to go with it. Looking online, it seems like I’m on borrowed time so I’d rather look at replacing now then in the dead of winter. Of particular note is the corrosion near the mixing valve. I had it serviced and the tech basically said “don’t touch it. If you mess with it it will start leaking. It’s definitely going to go at some point and hopefully it doesn’t spray water on the controller near it because that will be more money.” The tech suggested anywhere from $750-$1500 to replace just the lines and mixing valve depending how hard it is to get the piping out of it. So now I have the fun of researching oil vs propane. Cost wise, in Connecticut, it seems like a wash honestly. Propane needs to cost 30% less than oil does for it to “make sense” to change, then I need to deal with buying a tank and finding a suitable location for it. The life of oil vs propane tanks seems to be roughly the same but I could put the oil tank in my house instead on finding a spot 10’ away from any openings for the propane tank. Quotes have been fairly the same from multiple companies. $12-13k for a new boiler, $2500 for a new oil tank, and $2500 to line my chimney if it needs it (I’m assuming it would since I doubt it’s been touched). Propane is about $13k but they said I wouldn’t need to deal with the chimney and would just need to either buy or lease a tank. Any suggestions? I’m not seeing any benefit to propane especially with having to have the tank outside or pay more to have it underground.  
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Jul 21, 2022 19:00
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What's wrong with the oil heater? You appear to have a piping issue. Why would you replace a heater for a problem that is related only to the things you have connected to the heater?
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Jul 21, 2022 19:23
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nwin posted:From what I can tell it looks like I’m due for at least a repair of my oil boiler if not a huge replacement. check with your state - here in MA they will give you $15K to rip out an oil system and replace it with a heat pump system
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Jul 21, 2022 19:51
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Motronic posted:What's wrong with the oil heater? You appear to have a piping issue. Why would you replace a heater for a problem that is related only to the things you have connected to the heater? Nothings wrong except the age and potential inefficiency. I think it was you that said these things can last forever with readily available parts, but part of me has an issue putting money into this fix when I don’t know what could go wrong with it next. Since the tank is end of life as well, part of me thinks it makes sense to just get a new unit and not worry about it. The other thing I’m thinking about is I have a mini split downstairs and a central ac on the second level. Both of them must have heat pumps as they have the ability to heat. So one possibility is get a heat pump water heater which would take care of that that piping problem and reduce my use of oil. Then try and use the heat pumps for heating with electricity and use the oil as a backup to keep the house above 60 degrees or something like that. nwin fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 19:52
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It's your money. I'd repair the plumbing, the thing that you would need to repair anyway even if you put in a new unit (because, again, the problem is not with the heater, it's ancillary to the heater) and put a pan under the oil tank in case it starts to leak. Calling things "end of life" based on age/what an inspector told you during a purchase isn't a thing I'd suggest as a generally good with money thing. But it seems you are in a spiral where you want everything to be predictable, so that's gonna cost. And I suppose keep costing because how often you gonna replace stuff like this going forward?
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Jul 21, 2022 20:05
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All good points. Everything I see on oil tanks says the epa recommends replacing them at 20 years, where some people say they can last 50 years and just don’t touch the underneath in case there are thin spots. When I inspected barges we’d do NDT using ultrasounds to detect thickness of the tank, but asking around here nobody seems to do those anymore on home oil tanks, so it’s impossible for me to see how sludged up the thing is and I rather do a replacement now versus having it leak and needing to go get one from whoever has it available and can install it…just preventative maintenance is my thought.
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Jul 21, 2022 20:17
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nwin posted:When I inspected barges we’d do NDT using ultrasounds to detect thickness of the tank, but asking around here nobody seems to do those anymore on home oil tanks, so it’s impossible for me to see how sludged up the thing is and I rather do a replacement now versus having it leak and needing to go get one from whoever has it available and can install it…just preventative maintenance is my thought. I've never seen a 275 just let loose. They start weeping first (which is why I suggest the pan). 20 year old ones might actually need to be replaced at 20 years. 50 year old ones are probably still fine, because they used a lot thicker metal in them. 10-ish year old ones are largely coated inside and may last like the old 50 year old ones.....who knows?
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Jul 21, 2022 20:23
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Thought you all would love to see pictures of awful things. We have had issues heating/cooling at our home (doublewide made in 2001), we bought this place in 2010, honestly for the land more than anything else (I hate doublewides but whatever) and had the HVAC swapped out to a heat pump system leaving the old resistive heat in place for aux. I finally got tired of knowing that I was losing a lot of air underneath the house so I crawled under after using my thermal camera to spot the most likely culprit. I found the leak .. I present to you:     I really, really hate people like this. Edit: I cleaned things up (vac'd out the debris) and taped up the hole. This has helped a lot but obviously is a bandaid. Nobody around here wants to work on double wides/mobile homes (I get it, trust me) so I am not sure what to do when this eventually fails. mAlfunkti0n fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 22, 2022 |
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Jul 22, 2022 15:36
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Is that your lineset going through a duct? 
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Jul 22, 2022 22:53
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SpartanIvy posted:Is that your lineset going through a duct? Why yes. Yes it is. You mean it isn’t supposed to do that?  
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Jul 22, 2022 23:55
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Motronic posted:I've never seen a 275 just let loose. They start weeping first (which is why I suggest the pan). Yeah I didn’t know they sold containment pans but I’ll pick one of those up. Probably best to wait a winter and see how badly/well the system works before trying to really decide on oil vs propane. When I ran the comps last time it would take forever and a day to break even. Good call on the older tanks lasting longer than the new ones. I spoke to the maintenance guys again and it looks like only $500 to replace that piping and part, so I think I’ll go for that, though they are still adamant about me just getting a new system and tank. Main problem I have right now is using oil to heat my water during the summer. With this summers priced hot water is costing $100 a month which is absurd, but not as absurd as buying a new $17k system before I really know if it’s needed or not. I don’t have any other data points but I’m wondering if all these prices have spiked in the past few years and maybe waiting a few more years will see prices come back down.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:06
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nwin posted:Main problem I have right now is using oil to heat my water during the summer. With this summers priced hot water is costing $100 a month which is absurd, but not as absurd as buying a new $17k system before I really know if it’s needed or not. So there are solutions to that that aren't replacing your entire heating and DHW system with a different fuel. You can put in an indirectly fired storage tank so your heater is not constantly running every time you run hot water. This is essentially turning your "tankless" heater into a tanked heater. You could also just put in an actual tankless heater (not electric!!!!). I'm running oil heat with a propane tankless water heater (the clothes dryer and stoves also use propane). E: I've ordered from this place before, they are close to you and I noticed they have leak alarms now. So I ordered another pan (for the new house) and two alarms. https://fuelminder.biz/Accessories/oil_storage_solutions.html Motronic fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 00:13
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Took another look at the tank. It seems like there’s been some leaks on the fill and vent wells at the top unless there’s another reason for the oil being on the outside of the tank. Looking under the tank, there’s a few drips on the floor which line up to the location of the fill and vent pipes on top.  Looking at the bottom of the tank, there’s definitely some surface rust and light pitting, again in the area of the fill and vent pipes. I didn’t bother touching the area or knock/scrape the surface rust at all in case it’s wasted further. Seems kind of odd to see all the scrapes there which makes me think someone’s checked out the area before and that’s led to the paint removal and subsequent corrosion.  My home inspection didn’t make much mention of this except there was a slight sheen on the top of the tank. Looking at the pictures from the inspection, I think the oil on the floor was already there: 
nwin fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 14:01
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Nobody mentioned the scrapes on the bottom because that's what happens as you shove one of those tanks in through the bilco doors and down the steps with the legs off. If you're worried about the vent and fill they can be sealed. Looks like somebody didn't do a great job installing them.
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Jul 23, 2022 15:04
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Those tanks are a bastard to move around, yeah, that's just from getting it into the truck, out of the truck, and into the basement. A little rectorseal #5 will fix the pipe leaks right up, but depending on how far up the line the nearest union is, this is one of those "25 cents in materials, 250 dollars in labor" repairs.
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Jul 23, 2022 16:35
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Thanks-this all came up because I was checking out that site for the containment-saw the wifi gauges and went to measure the top thread. It’s closed with some blue stuff (loctite maybe?) and I figured my luck it’s been closed so long that if I try to unscrew the cap I’ll break something.
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Jul 23, 2022 17:23
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nwin posted:Thanks-this all came up because I was checking out that site for the containment-saw the wifi gauges and went to measure the top thread. It’s closed with some blue stuff (loctite maybe?) and I figured my luck it’s been closed so long that if I try to unscrew the cap I’ll break something. It's just pipe dope - no one would put loctite there. A big enough wrench will spin that right off, no problem. If it'll make you feel better, you can hit the surface rust with something like this and just spray paint over it in black.
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Jul 23, 2022 18:18
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I'm guessing megaloc (another kind of pipe dope) if it's blue. I hate that poo poo, the kevlar in it is a gimmick and resulted in me having to redo the very first project I used it on, when I specifically used it so I wouldn't have to redo it, after years of never having issues with rectorseal. So now I just use rectorseal on tapered threads again, unless it's a material that requires PTFE. Edit: now that I rant about this, I Google and there are at least 3 kinds of blue pipe dope. Only one has bullshit in it that makes it more likely to leak. kastein fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 23, 2022 |
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Jul 23, 2022 19:07
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This is a really really dumb and specific question. Is it possible to have a ducted heat pump system but run a single ductless unit off the same outside compressor?
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Jul 25, 2022 14:44
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Possible, yes? In theory. Commercially available, absolutely not.
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Jul 25, 2022 15:11
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The Slack Lagoon posted:This is a really really dumb and specific question. Not an HVAC pro, just a homeowner that watches YouTube videos, but I believe the Mitsubishi VRF system can handle this situation. It is possible, but I think it's pretty expensive as I've only seen higher end homes, like what Matt Risinger builds and showcases, use the system. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/products/wall-mounted-heating-and-cooling
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Jul 25, 2022 15:34
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skipdogg posted:Not an HVAC pro, just a homeowner that watches YouTube videos, but I believe the Mitsubishi VRF system can handle this situation. It is possible, but I think it's pretty expensive as I've only seen higher end homes, like what Matt Risinger builds and showcases, use the system. LOL, now there's one I hadn't seen before. Holy hell just a single air handler, without any way to control it (minimum $200 more for t-stat contacts and the options just get more expensive rom there) is $1800.
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Jul 25, 2022 15:38
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