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Failboattootoot posted:This is actually really common. The intended way to do them (and how it was done in ARR) was for each group to grab a chimera and split them way apart so you only had to deal with the mechanics of 1 chimera. These days, nobody in ADR wants to actually tank and everyone wants to go fast so one guy picks all 3 up and then if they chain cast either voice more or less simultaneously, half your raid dies because adr is just mouth breathers. Yeah, every WoD I've done lately has had problems with the three-chimera room. I've seen the same thing happen on most AR trash rooms where you're clearly not supposed to tank all the trash together, but everyone does and then a few people using PBAoE in the giant trash wad inevitably eat poo poo.
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Jul 25, 2022 20:51
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Been trying to get BLM to 90 lately and I needed to use my limited image editing abilities to express how I feel about it:
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Jul 25, 2022 20:58
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:This late in the tier, I don't know if you'll have much luck. Next savage tier should be out in a month, so that would be a good time to dip in. Adding onto this, your experience in PF will vary depending on what kind of PF group you choose to join, as well as the difficulty of the fight relative to other savage raids. I got through P1S entirely via learning groups recently, specifically learning groups with descriptions that a) said the group was for learning/prog/newbies dipping their toes in and b) had no raid shorthand in the descriptions. Every group was neutral/indifferent to screwups at worst, positive and supportive at best. This is anecdotal evidence, yeah, but I'm not exaggerating. Unless I was insanely lucky, you should get a similar experience if you hang with the newbie-friendly groups. OTOH, the quality of players will vary; most sessions had one or two people who had trouble "getting" some mechanic and had to be walked through it, patiently, by someone more familiar with the mechanic. (I never saw anyone openly angry about that, either. My guess is that there was a collective understanding that the PF description would attract new people who'd need helping out.) There were quitters from time to time, but it was usually people embarrassed that they were having a ton of trouble with a mechanic. If the fight you're trying is especially difficult, there'll be more negativity to go around right now due to the PF having more people who have been stuck for ages, are bored with the fight, and have begun playing the blame game to displace their irritation with the lack of progress. If you're picking PF groups that have the mechanics all laid out in the description and/or do not explicitly welcome newbies, you'll probably run into more toxicity--since the aforementioned blamers will be actively avoiding learning groups and trying to get people who already know what they're doing. All that said, to directly answer the question of whether learning PF groups are a waste of time or not: if you want to learn the fights, they'll be fine. Like O&O said, you're not going to learn bad habits, and this late in the tier there are common strats that people will be willing to explain to get everybody on the same page quickly. (You will be expected to watch a video guide first, unless you hop into a group that specifically says "we're going in blind.") If your goal is to progress through the raid tier, and you will be frustrated if some members of your group are significantly behind you in their understanding of the mechanics, then you should be aware that learning parties will start to grate on you over time. Plan for that. If you want to avoid both the mixed bag of groups with extensive strat descriptions (liable to have toxic players) and the slow-going of learning parties (significant time spent on mechanics explanations every session), you'll ultimately have to find a static. Failboattootoot posted:This is actually really common. The intended way to do them (and how it was done in ARR) was for each group to grab a chimera and split them way apart so you only had to deal with the mechanics of 1 chimera. These days, nobody in ADR wants to actually tank and everyone wants to go fast so one guy picks all 3 up and then if they chain cast either voice more or less simultaneously, half your raid dies because adr is just mouth breathers. It's easy for a bunch of people to get killed if there aren't enough players who know to interrupt the casts (and are quick enough on the draw), which is entirely likely in a level 50 raid. Look out for newbie tanks and be ready to help with stuns/interrupts (Low Blow, Interject, Head Graze, Sleep). 
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Jul 25, 2022 21:01
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Vargs posted:Been trying to get BLM to 90 lately and I needed to use my limited image editing abilities to express how I feel about it: lol
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Jul 25, 2022 21:03
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Failboattootoot posted:This is actually really common. The intended way to do them (and how it was done in ARR) was for each group to grab a chimera and split them way apart so you only had to deal with the mechanics of 1 chimera. These days, nobody in ADR wants to actually tank and everyone wants to go fast so one guy picks all 3 up and then if they chain cast either voice more or less simultaneously, half your raid dies because adr is just mouth breathers. It doesn't help that 50% of the time the tanks don't interrupt anything they can. And I've never seen a DPS other than myself interrupt a cast.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:05
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Vargs posted:Been trying to get BLM to 90 lately and I needed to use my limited image editing abilities to express how I feel about it: Been trying to get it to 30, and same.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:07
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FuturePastNow posted:It doesn't help that 50% of the time the tanks don't interrupt anything they can. And I've never seen a DPS other than myself interrupt a cast. In fairness, there's not a single bit of active help, HotN duty, or job quest tutorializing that tells you what Interject/Head Graze does or what the visual indicator for something that can actually be Silenced is. If you're not an ARR veteran or didn't look it up, you'd have no clue when or how to use it.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:10
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Vargs posted:Been trying to get BLM to 90 lately and I needed to use my limited image editing abilities to express how I feel about it: I like the detail of the aggro dropping like a rock.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:13
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Vermain posted:In fairness, there's not a single bit of active help, HotN duty, or job quest tutorializing that tells you what Interject/Head Graze does or what the visual indicator for something that can actually be Silenced is. If you're not an ARR veteran or didn't look it up, you'd have no clue when or how to use it. Technically the interrupt indicator wasn't added until either sb or shb. But yeah, it's pretty much trial and error except there isn't any error really, just throw out lowblows on everything and see what sticks (the answer will be a surprising number of ARR bosses and trash, love to stun ifrit eruptions)..
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Jul 25, 2022 21:15
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haukke manor was basically an entire dungeon tutorializing stuns and interrupts but never underestimate the laziness/ignorance of players in adr
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Jul 25, 2022 21:31
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Failboattootoot posted:Technically the interrupt indicator wasn't added until either sb or shb. But yeah, it's pretty much trial and error except there isn't any error really, just throw out lowblows on everything and see what sticks (the answer will be a surprising number of ARR bosses and trash, love to stun ifrit eruptions).. Wait... there's an indicator for interuptable attacks? 
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Jul 25, 2022 21:39
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No Dignity posted:Wait... there's an indicator for interuptable attacks? The cast bar blinks the whole cast time if it's interruptable
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Jul 25, 2022 21:40
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They should really make the monster castbar like electric blue with an exclamation point when you can interrupt it. Maybe add a new color for when a cast can be stunned (but not interrupted) as well
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Jul 25, 2022 21:41
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lol I mained tank for most of the life of the game and that one always passed me by, well good to know, thank you
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Jul 25, 2022 21:43
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There's good reason why they moved away from stuns and interrupts. That good reason being the interface. Good fuckin' luck detecting, targeting, and interrupting the right mob with a controller. KBM is also messed up due to the stone age, god-awful nameplates in this game, but fixing it would only disadvantage controllers. It's a big reason why I'm very unclear how Criterion Savage will work, because I fundamentally doubt that you can make trash compelling with the game's legacy limitations. Stuns, interrupts, and dispels were a massive part of WoW M+ trash packs, but that's because you could have good nameplates that would stack rather than overlap, have clear click hitboxes, display cast bars on the nameplates, and show relevant buffs all at once. I'd throw my computer out the window if I had to do the same kind of things with XIV's interface. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 21:44
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No Dignity posted:Wait... there's an indicator for interuptable attacks? Yeah when it's all red and flashy like.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:44
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The Monarch posted:I didn't really like red mage with a m+kb, but after taking the time to set up a gamepad UI I'm really enjoying it. Obviously all classes are designed with gamepad controls in mind but RDM really feels like it means it. In general switching to gamepad for a bit almost makes it feel like a new game after being only m+kb for so long. You can learn and clear savage in PF fine. The issue is that by now most people are done with it so you're left with the people who suck or maybe the odd person who just resubbed. You should still do it to get used to progging fights but be aware that the player quality will be a lot lower than it will be when a new tier comes out.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:47
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Corbeau posted:There's good reason why they moved away from stuns and interrupts. That good reason being good fuckin' luck detecting, targeting, and interrupting the right mob with a controller. they haven't really, tho? i guess there's not much trash with gigantic aoes like the maid servants in haukke or the good ol' giant frogs but if some trash has an annoying aoe or self-buff you can generally still stun it bigger "issue" is that if you have a whm in your party everything is getting stun resistant 10s into the pull
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Jul 25, 2022 21:48
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Chillgamesh posted:They should really make the monster castbar like electric blue with an exclamation point when you can interrupt it. Maybe add a new color for when a cast can be stunned (but not interrupted) as well It'd be nice if they could give it the yellow marching ants dashed line thing. I just ended up making the target cast bar loving huge and I still don't usually notice.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:49
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Oneiros posted:they haven't really, tho? i guess there's not much trash with gigantic aoes like the maid servants in haukke or the good ol' giant frogs but if some trash has an annoying aoe or self-buff you can generally still stun it I'm struggling to remember a single trash pack that demands interrupts after... Heavensward? Stormblood might have some yet. ARR has a ton compared to modern content though.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:50
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Corbeau posted:I'm struggling to remember a single trash pack that demands interrupts after... Heavensward? Stormblood might have some yet. ARR has a ton compared to modern content though. There's plenty of dungeons I recall going up to Shadowbringers where mobs will cast tank busters if you give them a chance, you don't strictly *need* to interupt them but it makes life alot easier
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Jul 25, 2022 21:52
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Corbeau posted:I'm struggling to remember a single trash pack that demands interrupts after... Heavensward? Stormblood might have some yet. ARR has a ton compared to modern content though. puppets' bunker 
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Jul 25, 2022 21:53
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Corbeau posted:I'm struggling to remember a single trash pack that demands interrupts after... Heavensward? Stormblood might have some yet. ARR has a ton compared to modern content though. The second Nier raid? That's all I can think of. The game really could do a better job explaining things like interruptible attack indicator--I probably never would have figured that out if someone hadn't randomly explained it in a raid one time. Same with the line over the debuff for esuna-able debuffs.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:56
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Corbeau posted:I'm struggling to remember a single trash pack that demands interrupts after... Heavensward? Stormblood might have some yet. ARR has a ton compared to modern content though. Dohn meg, interrupt the fuath casting the buffs on the first and 3rd packs and then a 3rd one with the trees right before the 2nd boss. It's also wise to stun the fat plant guy in that 2nd pack when he does his tankbuster because it is not loving about.
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Jul 25, 2022 21:56
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there's a dungeon boss in ew with an interruptable and mobs still have stuff you'll probably want to even if it isn't "necessary" (it was never necessary)
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Jul 25, 2022 21:58
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Thanks for the PF advice. And yea I definitely got a bad feeling seeing the ones listed like "learning party using 2f 3i 2-2 KNOW THE STEP DANCE!!!"
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Jul 25, 2022 21:59
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Early on in Shadowbringers, the lizard centaur guys in the Twinning would hit like a truck if nobody interrupted their enrage
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Jul 25, 2022 22:04
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...I've played off and on for five years and today learned how interrupts work.
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Jul 25, 2022 22:12
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Corbeau posted:There's good reason why they moved away from stuns and interrupts. That good reason being the interface. I'd say the interface is much less of an issue than animation lock and ping variability making required interrupts extremely dicey as a mechanic. If they're going to implement anything akin to M+'s mechanics, I expect it to be job-neutral stuff ala pomanders, since they otherwise risk enforcing a meta, even if unintentionally, which is something they've been loathe to do in the past (and which the whole "limited revives" thing points towards them still valuing).
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Jul 25, 2022 22:13
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Howdy folks, with the lull between 6.1 and 6.2, I figured it's time the DGKK troupe FUNK ENGINE to have another concert this upcoming Sunday evening: It's our 4th concert, and we're getting kind of good at it!
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Jul 25, 2022 22:27
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A Moose posted:Early on in Shadowbringers, the lizard centaur guys in the Twinning would hit like a truck if nobody interrupted their enrage These dudes would straight loving murder you for sure
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Jul 25, 2022 22:31
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The final boss of the 87 dungeon casts "True Bravery" which can be interrupted with silence. In ARR/HW, since stuns were part of many classes' DPS rotations they weren't exactly reliable for mechanics because there'd be no guarantee that the boss wouldn't have built up immunity. Silence was special though. But whether a move could be specifically silenced vs. just stunning the mob to interrupt the cast bar was trial and error until the updated interrupt UI got added. And then there was that fact that Silence was still tied to DPS rotations for most classes as well so there was no guarantee that you'd have it available for when it was needed. Scholar technically had an "on-demand" silence, but good luck timing Selene to cast it at the precise moment and MNK's silence required a specific stance which for obvious reasons wasn't always available. However, as a fun legacy of that, Monks got One Ilm Punch reworked to always stun in SB, and then that property got shifted to Blue Mage's Perpetual Ray which allows for permastunning a wide variety of things that are unexpected. Like there's an add in Leviathan Extreme that has an extremely dangerous cast bar. This cast bar is un-silenceable and the mob actually gains stun immunity during the cast. But if you displace the mob (currently only possible through Leviathan itself or Blue Mage, but used to be possible with a variety of abilities), that will interrupt the cast bar.
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Jul 25, 2022 22:54
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S.J. posted:These dudes would straight loving murder you for sure Yeah they're a good example. I still feel like there's less of them the later in the game's lifespan we go, but there are definitely more than I thought.
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Jul 25, 2022 23:09
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Bloody Emissary posted:Every group was neutral/indifferent to screwups at worst, positive and supportive at best. This is anecdotal evidence, yeah, but I'm not exaggerating. Unless I was insanely lucky, you should get a similar experience if you hang with the newbie-friendly groups. Yeah, I can see this being the case now. This late it's mostly people that want to be chill and learn some fights. You also have some gear advantages so things aren't quite so punishing, which helps morale. Early tier learning groups are generally neutral to good in my experience, but you also mix in some people that think they're far better than they or the group are, or people that want to prog fast and don't have the patience for it. The Monarch posted:Thanks for the PF advice. And yea I definitely got a bad feeling seeing the ones listed like "learning party using 2f 3i 2-2 KNOW THE STEP DANCE!!!" If you've seen a video, and don't understand pf strat jargon, just throw it out in here or discord. Someone will be able to point out what short hand means for each mechanic.
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Jul 25, 2022 23:10
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Hyper Inferno posted:In ARR/HW, since stuns were part of many classes' DPS rotations they weren't exactly reliable for mechanics because there'd be no guarantee that the boss wouldn't have built up immunity. There's a couple of enemies in later expansions where stuns can be useful, like the big robots in the 81 dungeon who do a big AoE on a small platform. Of course that guarantees you'll always have a WHM as your healer when running it...
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Jul 25, 2022 23:11
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A Moose posted:Early on in Shadowbringers, the lizard centaur guys in the Twinning would hit like a truck if nobody interrupted their enrage The trash packs in Akadaemia Anyder before the last boss have animate suits of armor that cast Noahionto and you can interrupt it. Back when everyone was sub-ilvl430 that poo poo hurt and if your dps was bad enough to let multiple suits get a cast of it off you were also probably bad enough to wipe to multiple casts
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Jul 25, 2022 23:20
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My raid group only gets 90mins/week (30-40 year-olds with work and kids and different timezones and such, coordinating schedules is a pain) so the recent unlock is the first time we've been able to reliably start progging P3S. Up to Fountain of Fire so far, it's a shame our group runs the gamut of skills from "progged it on their mains and coming along for the heck of it" through "read a guide and picks things up quickly after seeing things a couple of times, doesn't necessarily know the particular way others want to navigate mechanics" all the way to "shows up on the day with no prep and needs everything explained after dying to it once." I doubt we're gonna clear P4S before it ends, but we're having fun.
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Jul 25, 2022 23:24
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Similar boat here. My group gets tops about 2hrs, 2 days a week and we're closing in on the end of P4S. We've also agreed to do it absolutely blind, and for the most part nothing mechanically has been spoiled. The strategizing and mapping out movements has been great, and I'm glad I didn't have to do it in a week 1 group. All the strat talk and figuring things out on the fly has probably been more fun than actually executing the fights. P3 is probably the hardest and longest to prog by a decent margin. If you can get through that in time, P4 honestly shouldn't be much trouble. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jul 25, 2022 |
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Jul 25, 2022 23:29
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One nice thing 14 does compared to WoW is that if you interrupt an interruptible cast then the mob will usually stand there doing nothing until what would have been the end of the cast. There's no incentive to play latency chicken with the cast bar for ~efficiency~, you can just press head graze when you see a blinking cast bar. Another nice thing 14 does is that it doesn't have a billion goddamn interrupts everywhere, but I guess mileage will vary on how much of a plus that is. I do admittedly wish squeenix did something with dungeon trash. Not a dozen interruptible casts on every mobs, but something that's not indicator spam. Related to enemy cast bars, possibly the most important of the assorted semi-hidden HUD layout choices is making it very large like this (image stolen from some random reddit post. Coincidentally, it is an example of the bar for an interruptible cast):  The default UI isn't terrible but there are a lot of things placed in the periphery that you definitely don't want in the periphery, as well as some very useful options hidden in the hud layout section for individual hud items. Simple job gauges, for example, or the split buff/debuff display settings.
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Jul 25, 2022 23:34
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:P3 is probably the hardest and longest to prog by a decent margin. If you can get through that in time, P4 honestly shouldn't be much trouble. Yeah. Some folks have been wanting to go right to P4S and I'd be okay with that if: --they brought it up sometime other than 5 minutes before we're supposed to start. --Any of them were willing to say "I want" and they stopped trying to hint at it with "this other raid member said they hated P3 first night we did it." or "we could help <person who never said that was a goal they were going for> get their BiS, which doesn't need P3." You can't have a discussion with stuff like that. Unfortunately they've taken my pushing back against those shenanigans as shutting down the option. Sometimes you get along well with someone but there's one communication issue that just feels bizarre why your attempts to get past it aren't working.
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Jul 25, 2022 23:51
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