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Pwnstar posted:My eternal quest to find some nature spirits that aren't boring as heck continues. Aren't the kami the far east equivalent? Because that's definitely the angle I'm using for my little roleplay conjurer.
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Jul 27, 2022 15:57
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There's at least one instance of a kami doing something other than getting tainted, which makes them infinitely more interesting than the gridanian elementals
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Jul 27, 2022 16:05
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Oneiros posted:the people who get murder boners for the elementals are hilarious because they're basically real life ghibli movie villains and they seem completely unaware of it i mean i think using the constant threat of nature's terrible wrath to exploit mortals for your own defense and force their adherence to your incomprehensible moral code to the point of letting people die from lack of food or medical care just makes you, like, a slightly different kind of anime movie villain Lord_Magmar posted:They didn't let Ala Mighan refugees settle because they remember the last time Ala Mighan's came to the Shroud it was to invade and conquer. The Elementals don't really have concepts of individuals, one Ala Mighan is every Ala Mighan, in their understanding of the world. if the incomprehensibly ancient and powerful elemental spirits simply cannot differentiate between individuals, unless you do a couple quests in which case they suddenly are able to realize and can totally tell, i'm inclined to think they just aren't trying very hard (especially since, as the endwalker tank questline shows, they're totally capable of recognizing an individual (admittedly a padjal) for the purpose of punishment, though I don't fully grasp the extent to which Padjal are qualitatively different from regular spoken from the elemental point of view; are they distinct and more elemental-like in their eyes, or are they equally undifferentiated and just capable of talking?). e: actually the more I think about the "the elementals simply cannot distinguish between spoken individuals," the stupider it gets (not a knock on you it's obviously well-established lore). How is one Ala Mhigan every Ala Mhigan? You can't understand the concept of an individual but you're capable of recognizing the idea of an abstract nation-state? How? They have that special Ala Mhigan aether? Every Ala Mhigan vibrates at a specific frequency? How is Yda not identifiable as a problem but Meffrid and friends are? Valentin fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 16:39
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Pwnstar posted:My eternal quest to find some nature spirits that aren't boring as heck continues. The Elementals may be many things (racist, vain, stupid, spiteful, shortsighted) but that makes them not boring, to me at least!
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Jul 27, 2022 16:47
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Give the elementals wedgies
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Jul 27, 2022 16:52
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I don't want to murder the Elementals but I do want the record to show that if it comes down to it I could easily beat them up.
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Jul 27, 2022 16:56
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Vermain posted:The closest you'll get is probably the Uraeus Body Armor, which is also really easy to obtain via the MB. Yes, something like this, maybe with a metal plate instead of leather? Medium armor-ish looking
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Jul 27, 2022 17:09
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DelphiAegis posted:Nope. There's a quest in crystarium where your fairy king buddy unlocks the ability for all skywatchers to know what all other skywatchers see. You can only see the local area before that. I love that because prior to Fixing the sky the Skywatcher's dialogue is "Oh yes I became a skywatcher like my parents before me, it's a proud tradition." "Okay what's the weather like tonight?" "ETERNAL loving LIGHT IT NEVER CHANGES WHY THE gently caress ARE YOU ASKING ME!?"
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Jul 27, 2022 17:13
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Lord_Magmar posted:Which has its own issues because the Speakers can in fact straight up lie for their own agendas anyway. This being something that is never addressed or touched upon after the fact is one of 14's biggest story failings. How in the tap-dancing christ does the WoL not bust into Kan-e's treehouse and be like "okay so, we've got rogue Hearers basically claiming whatever the gently caress they want to push their own agenda, what specifically are you and your siblings gonna do about this"??
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Jul 27, 2022 17:23
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I'm gonna say it, the tank EW role quest in Gridania was my second favorite. I love the whole nature schtick and we got some good time with Kan-e. The magic dps one was my favorite if only for more Aymeric to be completely honest Kyrosiris posted:This being something that is never addressed or touched upon after the fact is one of 14's biggest story failings. This is also very true
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Jul 27, 2022 17:24
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Doomykins posted:Aren't the kami the far east equivalent? Because that's definitely the angle I'm using for my little roleplay conjurer. Nope. There are Kami, and there are elemental spirits more akin to the Gridanian ones. The Stormblood Astrologian quests deal with them and the far-eastern conjurer equivalent.
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Jul 27, 2022 17:31
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Is the 30% off worthwile for the full version or would it be recommended to wait?
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Jul 27, 2022 17:53
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Calaveron posted:Yes, something like this, maybe with a metal plate instead of leather? Medium armor-ish looking how about this one?  it's from the ghimlyt dark, a level 70 dungeon, so getting the piece or pieces you want can be a bit bothersome to farm. there's also a craftable version of it if your PLD's level 80 already
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Jul 27, 2022 17:59
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The Elementals moral code is not incomprehensible. It is literally 'dont loving burn/destroy our trees or murder the land' Like people point to what they do and seem to ignore it is always prefaced by the nature equivalent of 'I voted for the Burn Trees Down Party. Oh no, why are the trees burning my face?" Also like... 'Why do the Elementals hold all members of a culture responsible for the actions of their culture. What weirdos!' is loving weird when literally all of the spoken races do that too. Nobody was kind to the Ala Mhigan refugees because they had a bitter war again Ala Mhigo in living memory. Ul'dah was the nicest and that was to exploit them more than anything. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 18:03
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ImpAtom posted:The Elementals moral code is not incomprehensible. It is literally 'dont loving burn/destroy our trees or murder the land' Or don't be distantly related to someone who did that 100 years ago. Also just don't get sick when the elementals arbitrarily decide you don't deserve the easy medical attention of the conjurers.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Or don't be distantly related to someone who did that 100 years ago. Also just don't get sick when the elementals arbitrarily decide you don't deserve the easy medical attention of the conjurers. "Creatures that don't live human lifespans have a different memory for hurts" is an ongoing theme of the game.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:09
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ImpAtom posted:"Creatures that don't live human lifespans have a different memory for hurts" is an ongoing theme of the game. So is “teaching those creatures to learn to just let it go”, though.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:16
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ImpAtom posted:The Elementals moral code is not incomprehensible. It is literally 'dont loving burn/destroy our trees or murder the land' It's not hard to understand, it's just often short-sighted, selfish, and spiteful. Again, referring to the EW tank role quest You have someone who desires nothing more to help the Elements, makes a mistake, and is punished massively for the actions of another. Then later, when we are offering to assist in helping fix/stop an existential threat to both us and them, they are pretty unwilling to help. I mean, capricious and spiteful, but capable of helping greatly is not unfitting of Elemental forest spirits. I think people might just be confused if they're supposed to come off as kind of lovely or not.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:18
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ImpAtom posted:"Creatures that don't live human lifespans have a different memory for hurts" is an ongoing theme of the game. So is teaching those beings to understand you as youve tried to understand them but the Elementals are never ever subjected to this half of bridging understanding.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:20
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Yeah, the elemental stuff is weird because the way they're presented makes it hard to interpret them as anything but "stone loving morons" and the story just doesn't seem to recognize that this is the case. I assume this is some kind of cultural difference.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:So is teaching those beings to understand you as youve tried to understand them but the Elementals are never ever subjected to this half of bridging understanding. Yes they have? They literally formed a pact with the people of Gridania and have allowed previously forbidden things in the interests of peace. (Which is why Gridanians don't die after making poo poo out of wood.) The 'understanding' people demand is 'they bend 100% to another race's whims and never go against them.' If the Elementals didn't try to meet halfway Gridania either wouldn't exist or would live completely underground. The Padjil literally are proof of their willingness to communicate ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 18:31
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Nuramor posted:Is the 30% off worthwile for the full version or would it be recommended to wait? Depends where you are in the free trial and what you're noticing the lack of. If you're on the fence about getting it, I'd never suggest anyone spend $40 just because it's cheaper than what they might decide to pay later. If you're just trying to maximize the free content before paying a subscription then that's a different calculus. Assuming you know you're going to get the game eventually, then the discount can be seen as an extra 1.5 months subscription (by the way, even though it's called "entry" the cheapest subscription is almost certainly all you need to pay for unless you're going all-in on multiple characters).
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Jul 27, 2022 18:31
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ImpAtom posted:Also like... 'Why do the Elementals hold all members of a culture responsible for the actions of their culture. What weirdos!' is loving weird when literally all of the spoken races do that too. Nobody was kind to the Ala Mhigan refugees because they had a bitter war again Ala Mhigo in living memory. Ul'dah was the nicest and that was to exploit them more than anything. it's weird because they're ostensibly so above the concerns/beyond the comprehension of the spoken races they can't recognize individuals, but ARE capable of recognizing cultures and societies. since the Ala Mhigans lack any essential marker to mark them as "Ala Mhigan," that implies a level of ability to understand the spoken and make connections between them that makes the "we just can't differentiate spoken so sometimes we accidentally murder people or let them die just because we got accidentally mad" seem pretty thin. "the elementals can understand how spoken cultures/societies work JUST enough to do racism but not enough for anything else" is pretty eyeroll-inducing. Valentin fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 18:36
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The elementals don't even actually particularly single out Ala Mhigans - the problem the latter group has had with them that they see as a product of a grudge is they generally don't, as a rule, simply allow large groups to newly settle in the Black Shroud intact, and once a judgment is reached there's no aid or appeal. And it's not the greatest shakes for families to be told "well, Aethlwold and Orieldis can stay, but their ten-year-old daughter Bergard can't", so many opt to simply move on in such situations. There are refugees living in Gridania - there's enough to form a military unit, at that - but they're distributed throughout the country and there's just no Little Ala Mhigo equivalent. The Domans couldn't find a place for all of them to shelter in the Shroud, either, and the elementals have no special cause for enmity there.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:38
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Nope. There are Kami, and there are elemental spirits more akin to the Gridanian ones. The Stormblood Astrologian quests deal with them and the far-eastern conjurer equivalent. Ah. Luckily I haven't done more than think about it yet and I'll have to do more Ast quests, thanks.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:41
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Valentin posted:it's weird because they're ostensibly so above the concerns/beyond the comprehension of the spoken races they can't recognize individuals, but ARE capable of recognizing cultures and societies. since the Ala Mhigans lack any essential marker to mark them as "Ala Mhigan," that implies a level of ability to understand the spoken and make connections between them that makes the "we just can't differentiate spoken so sometimes we accidentally murder people or let them die just because we got accidentally mad" seem pretty thin. I am pretty sure elemental beings can probably detect variations in aether. 'How do they know??' is answered by 'they see something beyond just physical' like a ton of other races.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:41
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i don't think there's really a sustainable way to suggest the elementals can "just tell" via aether (leaving aside that there's no textual support afaik for the idea that Ala Mhigans, or anyone from a particular place, has that recognizable aetherically) without running into the fact that, like, individuals have unique aether signatures, so again the idea that elementals can somehow see JUST enough to tell this highlander is ala mhigan but THIS highlander isn't, but not enough to see that they are two entirely different dudes, just doesn't seem tenable. also, they clearly know what individuals are, since they have individuality themselves and can recognize it in trees, they just don't care. which is fine! they're capricious forest spirits who will kill at will to protect their territory and allow just enough of a symbiotic relationship with humanoid locals so they can keep worse pests out. that's great, I love the Hist, it's cool conceptually. it's just that rule by capricious and unknowable forest spirits as interpreted by a layer of provably corrupt and corruptible middle managers (and the elementals, as far as I can tell, don't care one whit if their hearers are abusing their positions) seems pretty bad and the writing doesn't seem to know how to handle it. it's not that anyone needs to Sylvanas it up at Stillglade Fane, it just feels like a gap in the writing, especially since e.g. the endwalker tank questline, which is supposed to be a showcase for gridania, just extended the confusion around elementals and made them seem even stupider rather than cleaning up any of these things. e: i mean since endwalker tank quests there has been a clear uptick in people complaining that the elementals seem capricious and awful, so even if the writing is intended to present them as equivalent to e.g. the dragons it's definitely not doing a good job. Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 18:50
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Bruceski posted:Depends where you are in the free trial and what you're noticing the lack of. If you're on the fence about getting it, I'd never suggest anyone spend $40 just because it's cheaper than what they might decide to pay later. If you're just trying to maximize the free content before paying a subscription then that's a different calculus. I never got a free trial, because SE was so "nice" to gift me ARR and a one-month-subscription during Gamescom a few years back. Of course I only noticed the mistake after using said free month to get a char to 50, getting me interested in the game in the process.  And since you cant "downgrade" after having played with a subscription, I was kinda stuck. As such, having the opportunity of a sale to get the full game would be interesting, I just don't know if the amount is worth it.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:57
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I would be happy if they just put gridania on the backburner indefinitely. It's remarkable how thin the stable of characters is for the city after almost 10 years of stories there. At some point you just have to cut your losses
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Jul 27, 2022 18:58
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Yeah some combination of "I just joined an army to shut down a tyrant nation, I'm not going to put up with a local tyrant just because they're traditional" "I am already experienced in convincing inscrutable ancient beings to abandon their old grudges and live amicably with mortals" and "Have you even seen how many gods I've beaten up, I'm not even tired" should be sufficient to convince the elementals to chill the gently caress out if they ever decide to go back to blighting the populace or kidnapping small children. It'll be pretty bad if future stories indicate this keeps happening and both WoL and Kan-E are both like welp that's just the way things are!
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Jul 27, 2022 18:58
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Nuramor posted:I never got a free trial, because SE was so "nice" to gift me ARR and a one-month-subscription during Gamescom a few years back. I've gladly paid full price for ARR and each expansion individually. $60 - %30 sounds like a steal from my perspective.
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Jul 27, 2022 18:59
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Thundarr posted:"Have you even seen how many gods I've beaten up, I'm not even tired" The elementals probably still think that (ShB) they're responsible for flooding the entire continent. I imagine it would be difficult to threaten beings that think they have that sort of power.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:01
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gridania's incredible racism, which is a major point set up as early as the 1.0 class quests (assuming i correctly understand that archer and lancer are functionally identical to their old quests), has yet to be even touched on in a meaningful way in the MSQ. like, not the elementals, just the regular-style racism enforced and spread by hearers. meanwhile over in limsa lominsa (5.X spoilers)they're ending piracy and merlwyb is directly and publicly repenting her previous failures to the point of offering to let the kobold priest kill her. it's just kind of a lame place that sucks, and the writing never touching on it feels like they made an active call to just try to not think about gridania ever. the fact that limsa is allowed to change in the story while ul'dah and gridania are frozen at their 2.0 starts is very weird. did (2.X spoilers) teledji and adeledji ever even get replaced on the syndicate?
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Jul 27, 2022 19:05
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The elementals probably still think that (ShB) they're responsible for flooding the entire continent. I imagine it would be difficult to threaten beings that think they have that sort of power. That's what we have Trial duties for.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:07
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I guess it's just inertia, but the most annoying thing to me is all the holiday questlines that still take place in gridania. I found the tank role quest enormously stupid but at least it was a one and done, stop reminding me that the place exists when I should nominally be enjoying halloween or whatever
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Jul 27, 2022 19:09
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Kyrosiris posted:This being something that is never addressed or touched upon after the fact is one of 14's biggest story failings. It does get touched upon at least once, in one of my favorite examples of the FFXIV writers hiding interesting lore in places the overwhelming majority of players will never find it. Stormblood LTW quests
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Jul 27, 2022 19:17
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Theris posted:It does get touched upon at least once, in one of my favorite examples of the FFXIV writers hiding interesting lore in places the overwhelming majority of players will never find it. Stormblood LTW quests Do I need to go and replay those? That's what I was specifically referring to and I do not remember said Hearer having any ramifications.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:18
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Theris posted:It does get touched upon at least once, in one of my favorite examples of the FFXIV writers hiding interesting lore in places the overwhelming majority of players will never find it. Stormblood LTW quests I believe they intend to say that after that bit of story happens to being it up in the first place, the matter gets dropped shortly afterward.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:19
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quote:
people have been saying that beforehand and it *always* revolves around just wanting to beat up nature spirits until they are too scared to defend themselves as humans stripemine their homes That is why you get people desperate to justify how the stable state of Gridania is unacceptable but nobody was demanding to murder every pirate in Limsa. It is why you see it painted as 'tyrrany' and not a functional city state as if Gridania is nothing but horror and not a place that seems to do relatively well 90% of the time despite involving two drastically different cultures. And mysteriously nobody calls for the extermination of the Fey despite them *actually* being what the Elementals are exaggerated to be. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 19:19
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Kyrosiris posted:Do I need to go and replay those? That's what I was specifically referring to and I do not remember said Hearer having any ramifications. I massively failed at comprehending the second paragraph. No, you're right that it's shown but then never actually addressed.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:20
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