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ImpAtom posted:people have been saying that beforehand and it *always* revolves around just wanting to beat up nature spirits until they are too scared to defend themselves as humans stripemine their homes well I mean, you do actually get to murder a lot of pirates in Limsa. there are multiple dungeons and story quests and job quests devoted to murdering bad pirates? there's a full rogue quest about how you learn certain pirates are engaging in human trafficking so you execute them in broad daylight while people cheer (they're probably just cheering for murder and violence generally, given Limsa and that they're drunk adventurers, but still). so it makes sense no one is clamoring for it, given that again Limsa is the only starting city state to undergo meaningful reform at any point in MSQ. my issue with gridania is not that gridania's stable state is any worse than capitalist hellscape ul'dah or lawless freebooter state limsa lominsa, it's that the MSQ acknowledges both the latter points rather extensively but never the first. e: actually the rogue quest is a very funny point of comparison. you learn someone's been abducting smallfolk and immediately snap into action. meanwhile there's a string of mysterious deaths and abductions in gridania but no one cares because they're often poor laborers, and they can't even solve it themselves because they all somehow forgot about the existence of one of the richest families in gridania in just five years following the calamity. obviously this example is just down to bad execution in the quest writing but Gridania comes off very poorly across its MSQ appearances (including having to go to stillglade fane a million times because kan-e-senna insists on hosting at her place whenever you're trying to plan a big get-together even though it has no good aetheryte access smh). Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 19:21
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Pwnstar posted:My eternal quest to find some nature spirits that aren't boring as heck continues. play Spirit Island
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Jul 27, 2022 19:22
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ImpAtom posted:That is why you get people desperate to justify how the stable state of Gridania is unacceptable Now ask a random duskwight or mooncat how they feel about this state of affairs
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Jul 27, 2022 19:30
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I kind of suspect the reason why Gridania doesn't get much play in the story aside from being Tree Party Zone is in fact because they got painted into a corner, and that is clearly now in 2022 but was probably less so in 2010 or 2014. It would be difficult to have dramatic conflict with the Elementals without essentially re-enacting the plot of Ferngully from the side of the guys in the tree butchery vehicle. Not impossible but not easy and probably way less easy than coming up with a half-dozen colorful new zones! As for telling Kan-e to fix it, the Warrior of Light needs functioning knees to complete their mission
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Jul 27, 2022 19:39
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Kyrosiris posted:Now ask a random duskwight or mooncat how they feel about this state of affairs The Duskwight's stereotype is based of the fact a lot of them wanted to stay after the peace treaty was signed only to discover their nation couldn't survive underground without the people happier living with the Elementals. Like no poo poo they are unhappy' they preferred living underground in an eternal cold war with the Elementals. The Mooncats were in conflict because they didn't understand why they had to treat the woods as something besides just a hunting ground and it us an explicit plot point they learned and most now hunt under the rules set by Gridania There is lovely racism towards Duskwights but that is because of lovely stereotypes of them being thieves and bandits because after Gelmorra collapsed that was the path a lot chose
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Jul 27, 2022 19:40
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ImpAtom posted:There is lovely racism towards Duskwights but that is because of lovely stereotypes of them being thieves and bandits because after Gelmorra collapsed that was the path a lot chose
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Jul 27, 2022 19:43
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It would be nice if gridania had any characters to speak of besides kan e and the trainers. But it doesn't
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Jul 27, 2022 19:44
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Valentin fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Jul 27, 2022 19:45
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A lot of the frustration with the elementals for me comes from (EW) how much you have to poke and prod them to do something when you’re doing the tank quests. It was one thing when they had a “tough but fair” agreement with the Gridanians where, in exchange for living under their strict rules, they looked out for the major threats to the Shroud. But when they come across as all take and no give until the finale, even when everyone is facing an existential crisis? It doesn’t seem all that unreasonable for people to start asking why the hell they’re putting up with it all when the elementals aren’t holding up their end of the social contract until they’re sufficiently cajoled into it.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:45
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In defense of the elementals, the dog that drove them to suicidal despair was quite large
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Jul 27, 2022 19:47
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The elementals are no more than a crappy HOA with a lot of overbearing rules
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Jul 27, 2022 19:49
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I've actually changed my mind and decided we should do more Gridania focus in the MSQ because Keeper of the Entwined Serpents is genuinely one of the funniest characters in the game to me. Ul'dah gets multiple major plot relevant characters with interesting internal dynamics, Limsa gets Merlwyb and Eynzahr and even Sicard is important and gets a voice actor for some reason. Meanwhile Gridania is one woman, her siblings, and a dude whose manner and presentation are so incredibly bland you could easily mistake him for a background NPC, who doesn't even get voice acting. I want him to continue to appear for the game's entire run but never become one iota more or less relevant.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:49
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Valentin posted:I've actually changed my mind and decided we should do more Gridania focus in the MSQ because Keeper of the Entwined Serpents is genuinely one of the funniest characters in the game to me. Ul'dah gets multiple major plot relevant characters with interesting internal dynamics, Limsa gets Merlwyb and Eynzahr and even Sicard is important and gets a voice actor for some reason. Meanwhile Gridania is one woman, her siblings, and a dude whose manner and presentation are so incredibly bland you could easily mistake him for a background NPC, who doesn't even get voice acting. I want him to continue to appear for the game's entire run but never become one iota more or less relevant. He’s saving revealing his name for whenever he’s about to get killed, because named characters are more likely to survive.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:54
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Regalingualius posted:A lot of the frustration with the elementals for me comes from (EW) how much you have to poke and prod them to do something when you’re doing the tank quests. It was one thing when they had a “tough but fair” agreement with the Gridanians where, in exchange for living under their strict rules, they looked out for the major threats to the Shroud. But when they come across as all take and no give until the finale, even when everyone is facing an existential crisis? It doesn’t seem all that unreasonable for people to start asking why the hell they’re putting up with it all when the elementals aren’t holding up their end of the social contract until they’re sufficiently cajoled into it. They were also being poisoned by the beast and actively afraid of it because it was a horrible despair abomination that utterly ruined anything that came bear it. but they *explicitly* say they would rather put themselves in danger than break the covenant of man. The world was under assault by overwhelming despair waves that drove people in every land to madness and self destruction. I think it is justified for evwn the Elementals to freak out.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:59
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Valentin posted:I've actually changed my mind and decided we should do more Gridania focus in the MSQ because Keeper of the Entwined Serpents is genuinely one of the funniest characters in the game to me. Ul'dah gets multiple major plot relevant characters with interesting internal dynamics, Limsa gets Merlwyb and Eynzahr and even Sicard is important and gets a voice actor for some reason. Meanwhile Gridania is one woman, her siblings, and a dude whose manner and presentation are so incredibly bland you could easily mistake him for a background NPC, who doesn't even get voice acting. I want him to continue to appear for the game's entire run but never become one iota more or less relevant. that guy is actually the coolest character in gridania.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:02
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oh he's 100% the coolest. he's this game's FE3H gatekeeper or SRW russel bergman and every time he shows up I'm like hell yeah.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:04
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Kyrosiris posted:This being something that is never addressed or touched upon after the fact is one of 14's biggest story failings. Thundarr posted:Yeah some combination of what game are you guys playing where the WoL does anything of their own volition without a quest attached to it, much less unilaterally marching into a nation and going "Um, actually, I know what's best for your culture. Stand back, plebs.  "If there's going to be change in Gridania it has to come from within Gridania, and no one seems to even consider loving with the Elementals.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:06
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IMHO, it's bad to want to kill or browbeat natives into rolling over for colonizers.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:11
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Blockhouse posted:"Um, actually, I know what's best for your culture. Stand back, plebs. Yes because that's exactly the same as "hey you've got dudes out there with your sanction and authority abusing that position to enforce their own whims that have zero backing from the Elementals, you might wanna address that"
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Jul 27, 2022 20:14
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Kyrosiris posted:Yes because that's exactly the same as "hey you've got dudes out there with your sanction and authority abusing that position to enforce their own whims that have zero backing from the Elementals, you might wanna address that" Again, unless the WoL is actively requested to step in, it's not really any of their business.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:17
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ImpAtom posted:people have been saying that beforehand and it *always* revolves around just wanting to beat up nature spirits until they are too scared to defend themselves as humans stripemine their homes No, it's because they're the winning combination of both useless and capricious. Gridania might be a stable state but it seems that way in spite of, not because of, the elementals. Also the elementals are pro-capital so gently caress em. This isn't to say I want them killed but it would be nice for them to get more chances to do things that are beneficial and make it seem like they're upholding their end of the bargain. Because there's a couple of instances of that measured against a boatload of what the gently caress are you gremlins doing?
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Jul 27, 2022 20:18
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Stillglade Fane *is* a lot nicer than cramming everyone into Merlwyb's office or having to get all dressed up for a trip into the giant city-devouring palace.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:21
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Zomborgon posted:Stillglade Fane *is* a lot nicer than cramming everyone into Merlwyb's office or having to get all dressed up for a trip into the giant city-devouring palace. Speaking of it kinda irked me we didn't get to visit the private rooms of any of the leaders like we could Aymeric in the EW role quests
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Jul 27, 2022 20:26
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Part of the elementals' deal is that they're kind of constantly "doing things on their end of the bargain" but the process is pretty invisible to the results. The Tank role quest has them as a mirror to the padjals - they're not simply too frightened to defend themselves, they see all the energy they've put into the covenant unappreciated and mankind constantly pressuring them to continually give up more of themselves (like Kan-E-Senna) and bad things happening to them despite their efforts and past pains (like Ea-Sura-Supin). Their punishment of the latter was a dumb move, but the resolution of the quest is the elementals realizing that the pact is still being upheld in good faith and there's a need for better communication - the implication is that Kan-E is going to foster that connection until she's not needed as, like, the main link between elementals and the rest of Gridania and can take more time for herself, but it's not something that's going to be finished in the active timespan of the WoL's adventures, so don't count on much more story development than that. Maybe if one of the Criterion dungeons is set in the Black Shroud.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:39
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ImpAtom posted:people have been saying that beforehand and it *always* revolves around just wanting to beat up nature spirits until they are too scared to defend themselves as humans stripemine their homes This is the shittiest possibly reading of people saying "Hey these things seem kind of capricious and racist and lovely amd unwillingly.to aid others without significant strong arming". A purposfully dogshit reading. Also no one called for the murder of everyone in limsa because....the game actually acknowledges hiw bad the people can be and the situation is even as early as ARR and then actually went on to change the situation. That hasn't happened at all on either side in the decade of the writing so far wrt the Elementals.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:40
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Maybe they could have showed more explicit showings of the Elementals protecting the Twelveswood. Like we know that they do provide and help, but like, show us that the Garleans never made much headway because trees attack them (and that's why Garlean presence in Eorzea is mostly limited by sea on Thanalan), the rogue Sylphs are not as problematic as other quests cause the elementals can stall/negotiate with Ramuh, etc. We're basically only told about the benefits of the pact with the elementals besides them helping on 1-2 Grindanian quests but we're shown constantly the issues they cause. Also (EW thingie) the posion from the Blasphemy should have been the cause for the elementals to panic and be scared besides DESPAIR, since we know the forest is easy AF to corrupt.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:49
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It doesn’t actually get mentioned as often as it probably should, but It’s also worth remembering the damage inflicted by Bahamut in the calamity. A huge swathe of the western Shroud (a zone from 1.0 no longer accessible and only the edge visible in modern FFXIV) is just a blasted hellscape of jagged, upturned bedrock punctuated by dead and shattered tree trunks. The rest of the shroud fared better but you can still see signs of severe damage here and there. The Twelveswood has been teetering on the brink of a severe ecological collapse since.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:49
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Maybe we should not punch the elementals but the Gridanians should internally improve things like the Limsans did and the Uldahns kind of did.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:51
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Blockhouse posted:Again, unless the WoL is actively requested to step in, it's not really any of their business. For better or for worse the Scions of the Seventh Dawn tries to be a apolitical organization dedicated solely towards the preservation of Eorzea. While rogue hearers are bad, unless they were planning on conquering Gridana or Kan-E asks them to deal with it, it isn’t really their business.
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Jul 27, 2022 20:53
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Hellioning posted:Maybe we should not punch the elementals but the Gridanians should internally improve things like the Limsans did and the Uldahns kind of did. Yeah I want to see this quest line
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Jul 27, 2022 20:53
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:] The Elementals *do* do things they just don't count/aren't enough/don't count. The Shroud is a largely peaceful place because of their protection without which the Garleans would have wrecked their poo poo. Same for Ala Mhigo. We see them lend their power on multiple occasions. Like may be they should combine into Pepsiman ans slam dunk a void beast or something to make it clearer
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Jul 27, 2022 21:01
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I think it would help some people ITT to think of the Elementals as a big, extremely powerful swarm of bees: they attack if strangers mess with their home, they can learn to recognize individuals and tolerate them but they'll still lash out fairly indiscriminately if they're bothered too much, they're kinda smart and they can communicate in limited ways but you're never going to be able to explain complex concepts like morality to them. I'm not saying that basing your government on the whims of A Giant Swarm of Bees is a good idea, but if you want to get away with living in their hive and don't have enough firepower to kill them all, there isn't really a better alternative that ensures that your nation survives the cohabitation.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:02
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ImpAtom posted:The Elementals *do* do things they just don't count/aren't enough/don't count. The Shroud is a largely peaceful place because of their protection without which the Garleans would have wrecked their poo poo. Same for Ala Mhigo. We see them lend their power on multiple occasions. Yes, that would help actually. Maybe they also shouldn't let gridania have a rich jackoff district or allow haukke manor to exist instead of turning away refugees? But really, it's somewhat the same problem that Minfilia has. Everything good they do is done off-screen while we constantly have to deal with their gently caress ups. Well "constantly" in the case of Gridania I guess since it isn't like they get a lot of screen time.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:04
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Ibram Gaunt posted:IMHO, it's bad to want to kill or browbeat natives into rolling over for colonizers. The Elementals are landlords, hth Until the writing actually does something to show improvement and show the positive effects of the relationship, I'm not moving off the "gently caress Elementals" hill. All of my experience in dealing with them has been negative, from forbidding Gridanians from even rendering basic medical assistance to an Ala Mhigan to the treatment of the Padjal to the power disparity between the Elementals (who hold all the power) and the Gridanians (who have no choice in the matter; submit or leave). It's real disingenuous to go "lol Elementals are natives spoken are colonizers" without recognizing that power disparity. These aren't peer forces. This isn't "stronger colonizer subjugates weak natives." It's inscrutable land owners renting their land and inflicting disproportionate punishment for both real and imagined offenses. edit: Elemental chat is housing chat 2.0
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Jul 27, 2022 21:06
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love seeing people justifying colonizing and murdering natives by reducing them to something hateable like landlords keep it up y'all
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Jul 27, 2022 21:13
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this thread is at its most exciting at times like this
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Jul 27, 2022 21:14
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It feels like any time the elementals come up the plot is "poo poo got corrupted, time to cleanse the taint, back to status quo" Although it might not be the WoL's job to yell at Kan-e-Senna about Hearers making poo poo up about what the elementals want, it's a least a hook for a potential story that might allow Gridania to deal with some of its problems and improve a bit, like the other city states have done or tried to do.
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Jul 27, 2022 21:15
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video games arent people
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Jul 27, 2022 21:17
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Lalafells are actually the elementals. They don't do much anymore because they hosed off to warmer places. Think about it for a sec, you don't see too many lalafells in Gridania. And we've never seen an Elemental and every lalafell in the same place at the same time...
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Jul 27, 2022 21:18
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double post
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Jul 27, 2022 21:18
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