Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

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S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Beta rules should be out today I believe so at least there's a feedback period before launch.

# ? Jul 27, 2022 17:34

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:22

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

I really, really hope that they use the MKIV launch to finish their loving website, what a loving mess that is.

# ? Jul 27, 2022 17:46

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Pretty sure I'm banned from the WMH general discussion Facebook group lol. Guess I flew a little too close to the sun.

# ? Jul 27, 2022 20:40

The Deleter: May 22, 2010

You're probably better off, haha. I'm guessing it's nothing but doomsaying in there?

# ? Jul 27, 2022 20:47

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

I'm feeling very whiney and tantrum-y about no beta rules yet.

# ? Jul 27, 2022 20:59

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

The Deleter posted:

You're probably better off, haha. I'm guessing it's nothing but doomsaying in there?

It has been for a long, long time. It doesn't help that half of the people in the group probably haven't played the game in half a decade or more and just do nothing but make everything miserable.

# ? Jul 27, 2022 23:38

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

Rules and commentary have finally dropped:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2022/07/27/mkiv-beta-rules-and-change-comparison/

Edit: there is a lot of Warcaster in here but it seems like it's good stuff, though it does make Warmachine a fundamentally different game than it was. Facing and Free Strikes are gone, rough terrain is simplified and elevation is back, units move like Warcaster, attacks out of turn are rare, and that's just the commentary on the changes, I haven't actually read the rules yet.

rantmo fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 28, 2022

# ? Jul 27, 2022 23:45

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Free strikes are gone but instead you must forfeit your combat action. I like that.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 00:31

Slyphic: Oct 12, 2021; All we do is walk around believing birds!

I'm down with everything listed in the summary except facing. That was a mistake.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 00:46

koreban: Apr 4, 2008; I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.; Fun Shoe

Slyphic posted:

I'm down with everything listed in the summary except facing. That was a mistake.

I disagree. Facing made the game a slog and caused more arguments and nitpicks over micro measurements of accuracy than it added to the game.

I�m all for removing the weaponized geometry and five-thousandths of an inch calibrated measurements nonsense.

While I don�t claim to be a game systems designer, nor would I say that I could do better than a professional, I�m confident that you can make a game that is both competitive and fun and doesn�t require devolution into pass/fail scenarios over the most minuscule of measurements on the regular. Facing did a lot of that.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 01:04

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Facing was always more annoying to me than anything tbh

E: I'm so loving glad templates are gone

S.J. fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jul 28, 2022

# ? Jul 28, 2022 01:10

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

Free strikes were a good feature. I really liked it. But man, the issues of facing coupled with differing attack ranges and also attack arcs on the model was awful to deal with on the board. Works much better in electronic versions. So I get dropping it. Between that and no templates, I bet they cut a 1/2 hour from a full sized game.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 01:43

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

I like the rack options a lot. Cygnar is now actually a snipe faction.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 02:02

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

https://home.privateerpress.com/2022/07/27/mkiv-beta-rules-and-change-comparison/

quote:

Changes from WARMACHINE MkIII to MKIV include:
Removal of Facing: One of the biggest changes in MKIV is the removal of facing and all the fiddly model positioning that go with it. The removal of facing has greatly reduced the cognitive load required for the careful placement of models. Models now see in 360 degrees. It also eases the ability to achieve proper placement and base contact with even the most dynamic of sculpts.
Removal of Free Strikes: Along with the removal of model facing, we also removed free strikes from the game. Rather than pausing the active player�s turn for an attack resolution when an engaged model leaves an enemy model�s melee range, now the moving model must simply forfeit its Combat Action that activation. It also prevents some of the fiddly measurements during movement as you attempt to skirt threat ranges, as with the new rule; if you didn�t start your movement engaged, you will be unaffected by the rule.
Furthermore, we not only removed free strikes from the game but also most of the capacity to attack out of turn. While some out-of-turn attacks remain, more complex special rules allowing for slams or charges have been removed completely. This enabled us to further speed up play by omitting clunky rules interactions while allowing us to greatly simplify some aspects of the rules.

Simplification of Unit Rules: Obviously, one of our goals with MKIV was to speed up the overall play of the game. We have long seen unit activations, with their independently measured movement of each individual model, be a drag on the pace of play. To that end, we reduced the size of units and streamlined their internal interactions. We removed command ranges, unit leaders, and formation completely. When a unit activates in MKIV, during its Normal Movement, you choose one model to advance and the other models in the unit are placed within 2 ̋ of that model after the movement is completed. When a unit charges, you move just one model, then the other models in the unit are placed within 2 ̋ of that model and charge attacks are based on which models the initial charging model is engaging.
Although the reduced unit sizes somewhat affected the damage output and capability of those models, the changes to their movement and rules interactions have given units a very different role in the game. Units now move like quicksilver; they are hard to pin down and make great use of their numerical superiority.

AOEs and Spray Attacks Have Been Simplified: Both AOE and spray attacks have been made simpler and faster to resolve. This is one of the places where we pioneered new rules for other games while looking ahead to MKIV. We had long found WARMACHINE�s reliance on templates to be inexact and cumbersome. Templates slow play, and their precise positioning can give even the most careful eye and steady hands fits. With that in mind, we have sought to eliminate the use of templates from the game wherever possible, especially in attack resolution.
Neither sprays nor AOEs now rely on templates for their resolution. As with Warcaster: Neo-Mechanika, a spray attack is now a simple straight line drawn from the attacking model out to the full range of the attack. An attack roll is made to determine if each model touched by the spray is hit.

Each AOE attack has a value that determines on a direct hit how many models in addition to the target will be hit and suffer blast damage. This number also determines the maximum range in inches models can be away from the target and still suffer blast damage. On a miss, the target alone automatically suffers blast damage but no other effects from the AOE. The rules no longer require the randomized placement of deviating templates on a missed attack.

Additionally, rather than halving the damage value of the attack to determine blast damage, a secondary parenthetical number is provided that indicates the power of the blast damage.

Warjack and Warbeast Customization: We have introduced warjack and warbeast customization to the game. This has enabled us to produce smaller numbers of warjack chassis but with head and weapon options that allow for a broad array of tailoring and specialization for your preferred army and tactics. Each option has a cost associated with it, giving players broad flexibility to fit these models into their armies.
Racked Spells: New MKIV warcasters have both assigned spells and Rack options. The spells assigned to these warcasters can be thought of as their �signature spells� that no other warcasters in their army will have access to. Rack spells are selected from options available to every warcaster in the army, and every new army has ten Rack spell options available to it. Rack options further allow a player to tailor their warcaster to their tactics and the force they wish to play. These spells are chosen before the start of a game but after seeing what you are facing. This gives the new �casters amazing flexibility at minimizing the impact of poor planning or bad matchups.
Command Cards: Command Cards are a new mechanic that has been added to MKIV. As part of army creation, each player selects a hand of five Command Cards. These cards are one-use only, and each player can play up to two per turn. Each Command Card details when it can be played, and each model/unit can have up to one Command Card played on it each turn.
Command Cards have relatively minor effects that are intended to help mitigate bad matchups and gotcha moments. For example, they include cards that grant a model/unit Pathfinder for an activation or give a model�s weapons the Damage Type: Magical quality for one turn.

While most Command Cards are free, some have a point cost associated with them like models. In the future, we will be introducing Command Cards tailored to specific Factions, armies, and possibly events.

Assassination & Execution Modes: Along with all the other changes we have introduced in MKIV, we are also introducing a new mode of play. While Assassination Mode can be thought of as �standard WARMACHINE,� in which the game ends when either the requirements of the scenario have been met or one player loses their warcaster or warlock, in Execution Mode, the rules are a little different.
When playing in Execution Mode, only a warcaster or warlock can destroy another warcaster or warlock model. When a warcaster or warlock model would be destroyed as a result of damage suffered from any source other than an attack made by an enemy warcaster or warlock model, instead of being destroyed, it becomes Vulnerable. If it is destroyed by damage inflicted by an attack made by an enemy warcaster or warlock model, instead of becoming Vulnerable, it is destroyed.

When a warcaster or warlock model becomes Vulnerable, its upkeep spells immediately expire, but it remains in play with 0 damage boxes. A Vulnerable model cannot suffer damage from any source other than from an attack made by an enemy warcaster or warlock model. If a Vulnerable model suffers any additional damage from an attack made by an enemy warcaster or warlock model, it is immediately destroyed. While Vulnerable, a warcaster or warlock model cannot have damage removed from it and cannot make attacks. At the start of the Vulnerable model�s controller�s next turn, remove 1 damage point from the Vulnerable model and it ceases to be Vulnerable.

Additionally, while playing Execution Mode, when a warcaster or warlock model spends one or more focus or fury points during its activation to remove damage from itself, such as a result of a warcaster�s Power Field special rule or a warlock�s Healing special rule, instead of just removing 1 damage point for each focus or fury point spent, the warcaster or warlock model can remove up to 5 damage points. Rapid Healing only affects damage removed from the warcaster or warlock model and does not, for instance, affect warbeasts healed by a warlock during its activation.

Removal of Theme Forces: We have removed theme forces from the game in MKIV. As defining as theme forces were in the previous version of the game, MKIV�s focus on armies removed the necessity for this complex building block.
Models Can Only Attack Enemy Models: We have generally removed the ability for friendly models to target other friendly models with attacks. There are some exceptions, of course, including warbeast frenzies and models with the Berserk special rule, but for the most part, you are no longer allowed to target your own models with attacks. This not only removed what we have long felt was a potentially awkward exploit in the rules but also allowed us to further streamline rules writing and interactions.
Integration of HORDES into WARMACHINE: We have integrated the rules of HORDES directly into WARMACHINE. This not only allowed us to streamline the rules shared by the two games but also the language surrounding warcasters and warlocks, now collectively known as Commander models.
More Powerful Warjacks and Warbeasts: In addition to being able to tailor warjacks and warbeasts directly to your army through customization, these models have also gained the ability to attack with all their weapons, whether melee or ranged, in the same activation. Generally, all warjacks and warbeasts now have the Dual Attack advantage, which grants this capability.
Streamlining of Stats: We streamlined the presentation of stats in the game. We completely removed the Strength (STR) stat from the game and gave melee weapons a flat POW like ranged weapons. The damage for power attacks is now based on the relative base size of the attacking and target models.
We also replaced the FOCUS (FOC) and FURY stats on warcasters and warlocks with an ARCANE (ARC) stat that sets those models� focus and fury point caps. Furthermore, we added new Control Range and Arcane Attack stats. Those capabilities are no longer based on the FOC and FURY stats of those models and are instead variable, tailored to the intended capabilities of each model.

Running Standardization: Instead of a running model advancing at double their SPD in inches, a running model now advances at SPD +5 ̋. This change both adds a hard limit to how far a model can advance while running but also enables us to simplify the language involved in writing movement rules. No longer do we have to separate �SPD� and �movement� modifiers to limit how far a model can run.
Increased Melee Ranges: We have increased the default melee range in the game from .5 ̋ to 1 ̋ to further deemphasize model placement and to account for base overhang. Coupled with the removal of facing, the placement of models has never been easier.
Models Are Allowed to Make Ranged Attacks While Engaged: The rules now allow for a model in melee to make ranged attacks, albeit with a �4 attack roll penalty unless the model is attacking with a weapon with the Pistol quality.
More Crits: We have also sought to infuse MKIV with a little more spontaneity and excitement. To that end, we have increased the number of critical effects in the game. This has led to a somewhat more varied and rousing play experience.
Rough Terrain: Models now suffer a flat �2 movement penalty when they begin an advance within rough terrain or would advance into rough terrain. This is in lieu of moving at half-rate through rough terrain, which could be both complex and counterintuitive to resolve.
Return of Elevation: We have returned elevation to the game in hopes of seeing some more interesting varieties of terrain on the tabletop
Simplified Power Attacks: Power attack interactions have been largely streamlined and simplified. Thrown models, for example, no longer deviate or target other models when they are moved. Collateral damage is now based on the base size of the attacking model relative to the model suffering the collateral damage.
Simplification of Model Rules: We have also taken steps to reduce the sheer bulk of rules on each model in the game. This goal has been applied case-by-case with care taken to maintain each model/unit�s role and unique capabilities while also trimming some fat and reducing the cognitive load required to play with and against certain models. The capabilities and point costs of every model/unit in the game are being carefully weighed and rebalanced to ensure their place within each army.
Key Words: Several key words have been modified or removed, often due to interactions with the new rules set. These will continue to be updated as models with these key words roll into the new game.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 02:44

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

Cygnar may well be the deflection faction given their spells.

And the new jacks badly outclass the old ones. The Ironclad equivalent (old cost 12 points - and the Cryxian jacks haven't changed cost much) is a Stryker so it has a Storm Legion Accumulator and SPD 6. It also has Relentless Charge (the cheapest head option), the Voltaic Shield off a Centurion, and comes in at 11 points. I'm also wondering whether all-ranged heavy jacks are now worthwhile given that you can have two main guns on them.

Edit: I'm also side-eyeing the quasi-hunter light jack. Advance Deployment, a long-arm, and either a shield or a second gun with either arcing fire or beat back for 10 points. Admittedly no extended control range or pathfinder.

neonchameleon fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jul 28, 2022

# ? Jul 28, 2022 03:21

xiw: Sep 25, 2011; i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum
Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

FA:4 on jacks is interesting.

quote:

When an AOE attack misses its target and the target was within
the attack�s RNG, the target suffers a blast damage roll.

deserved redeemer supremacy IMO

# ? Jul 28, 2022 03:26

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

neonchameleon posted:

Cygnar may well be the deflection faction given their spells.

And the new jacks badly outclass the old ones. The Ironclad equivalent (old cost 12 points - and the Cryxian jacks haven't changed cost much) is a Stryker so it has a Storm Legion Accumulator and SPD 6. It also has Relentless Charge (the cheapest head option), the Voltaic Shield off a Centurion, and comes in at 11 points. I'm also wondering whether all-ranged heavy jacks are now worthwhile given that you can have two main guns on them.

Edit: I'm also side-eyeing the quasi-hunter light jack. Advance Deployment, a long-arm, and either a shield or a second gun with either arcing fire or beat back for 10 points. Admittedly no extended control range or pathfinder.

It looks like the heavy warjack versions of some of the options might actually be higher POW too?

# ? Jul 28, 2022 03:32

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

xiw posted:

FA:4 on jacks is interesting.

deserved redeemer supremacy IMO

Redeemers are down to 9 points from 10 - and only half as inaccurate (RAT 3 now rather than the 1 you'd expect with the Inaccurate rule). Unfortunately the Skyhammer rockets are now Reload [2] rather than ROF 3. RIP Redeemers.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 03:36

Hipster Occultist: Aug 16, 2008; _{He's an ancient, obscure god. You probably haven't heard of him.}

New Ghostly is kinda weird, a bit better overall.

Not really impressed with the "Bane" army thus far though. Seems like it'll be a while before I touch Mk4

# ? Jul 28, 2022 07:07

xiw: Sep 25, 2011; i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum
Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

So orders are completely gone it appears.

Shield wall as +2 arm / no knockdown in b2b is pretty easy to use.

All jacks in each army get their army keyword - makes tactician: exemplar pretty nice.

Enliven is back with no disadvantage for walking out of combat now (though it might be easier to block jacks in with charging models)

Choir will be fiddlier with the unit placement limits.

Errants gained a random shield attack (!) to go with bonus dual attack. That's a lot of mat8 swings.

Lance rule finally gone.

Jack marshall abilities seem to be gone, and Reclaimers (who had no drive) lost their jack-related abilities - so jack marshall is presumably entirely about the drive now. I guess rhythm of steel's a bit easier to use with new unit movement.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 07:36

!Klams: Dec 25, 2005; Squid Squad

xiw posted:

FA:4 on jacks is interesting.

deserved redeemer supremacy IMO

I've got like 21 Grundbacks, I'm eyeing this nervously

I really like all the changes, except the template ones because I thought they were fun, but I still think it's a good change.

!Klams fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jul 28, 2022

# ? Jul 28, 2022 14:13

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

Haven't played or even paid much attention to this game in almost a decade but I read the blog post about Mk4 and in theory I like almost everything they're saying. Will skim the rules later today.

I'm a little unclear about legacy support and the switch to 3D printing though. Will they swap to 3D printing for all their old stuff? Like will you be able to get nice, easy to assemble plastic kits for <any given metal model> now/eventually? Or is a certain amount of stuff just going out of print and if you have it you'll be able to play it in their Open format but if you don't then good luck getting something you may want?

# ? Jul 28, 2022 14:17

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

I have a pile of shredders, I better be able to use them :argh:

# ? Jul 28, 2022 14:29

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

My impression is that a lot of the old stuff will just fade away, though presumably the models that are being brought forward into MKIV--like the Banes as we see in the sample cards--will still be available in some fashion eventually. This is all speculation of course, if they've commented on legacy models I haven't seen it.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 14:29

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

Legacy models will go out of print, they're not making them any longer.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:02

Slyphic: Oct 12, 2021; All we do is walk around believing birds!

I'm afraid all those cool models I've been putting off buying for ages need to get bought soon before they go OoP and the scalpers descend. Because there's not a single model post Grymkin I actually like.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:18

darnon: Nov 8, 2009

In theory they might be able to 3D print some of the newer metal/resin models that were 3D print mastered in the first place.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:23

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

It seems to me that some legacy models are going to have to still be in print because they'll be fully supported in MKIV but if that's new sculpts or 3D prints of the old ones I don't know.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:34

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Presumably a few things will stay but I doubt it will be anything they aren't already making in house or capable of doing so.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:42

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

Yea I'm guessing all the old stuff is either:

* Going out of print
* Getting a new model that can be 3D printed

But it would've been really cool if they were like, "We 3D scanned all our old poo poo and can now print-on-demand whatever we what!"

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:48

Slyphic: Oct 12, 2021; All we do is walk around believing birds!

I really want to see them throw up an article about their new 3DP production area. Find out exactly where they are on the spectrum between a dozen Mars 2s on folding tables in a spare bedroom with a box fan in the window to an actual professional setup like this.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 15:59

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

I feel bad about the loss of legacy stuff because a lot of 'normal dude' type units will be going away for more 'interesting' miniatures- i enjoyed playing steelheads, pirates, even trenchers.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:07

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

We'll see the trenchers again, they've all but guaranteed it.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:10

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

PP posted:

And finally, after twenty years, we are embracing true warjack customization in WARMACHINE. The first warjack kits we�ll be introducing in MKIV will come with ... four different heads, which represent different cortex abilities. During force construction in War Room, you�ll be able to customize each of your warjack�s loadouts to best support your strategy and playstyle for your upcoming scenario. But we didn�t just reflect this in the rules�we made sure the models support this new concept as well.

Different Jack heads coming with different abilities sounds really bad for "glance value" 😬

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:14

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

Sab669 posted:

Different Jack heads coming with different abilities sounds really bad for "glance value" 😬

I mean, you just ask when you're setting up or whenever you can't remember what it does. It's a core part of Warcaster, so they've got some confidence in it not being a problem at the table.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:16

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

Sure yea you can always ask, but what I mean is you can easily discern a jack's Big Fuckin' Sword from its Big Fuckin' Gun or Big Fuckin' Hammer. So even if you might not know exactly what it does, you can approximate what it does without needing to ask / remember. Heads are small and more easily confused and will need clarification more frequently.

My memory has just always been poo poo and keeping track of all that stuff has been a big "barrier" for me with wargaming in general :shrug:

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:30

Hipster Occultist: Aug 16, 2008; _{He's an ancient, obscure god. You probably haven't heard of him.}

Just going off of all the wartable diagrams I keep seeing, the new movement seems kinda janky, charging especially seems kinda weird when it's unit vs unit

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:39

The Deleter: May 22, 2010

I'm a weirdo who likes the Storm knights aesthetic and the new jacks, but I definitely think some staples are gonna come across. The little chicken jacks for Cryx, trenchers, etc.

My main issue is that MK3 infantry units are a billion different special rules and I hope some simplification is done. Look at the Warmachine University entry for regular old Trencher infantry and tell me that isn't some poo poo.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 16:45

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

Hipster Occultist posted:

Just going off of all the wartable diagrams I keep seeing, the new movement seems kinda janky, charging especially seems kinda weird when it's unit vs unit

I played a game with the beta rules and it loving sucks rear end. It's janky as hell and doesn't feel good at all.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 17:14

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:22

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

I had a feeling the Warcaster unit movement rules would be a problem with Warmachine-sized squads.

# ? Jul 28, 2022 17:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

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