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Scuffy_1989 posted:Should have had a Maple leaf on the F-14. Enemy avro arrows  We can dream
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Jul 28, 2022 15:30
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Really great discussion when the response to “this film is propaganda” is either “nuh uh” or “yeah, so?”
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Jul 28, 2022 16:30
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Ok make your point
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Jul 28, 2022 17:18
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Goons are prideful war machine apologists.
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Jul 28, 2022 17:24
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TheNamedSavior posted:They discuss it, they analyze it, they criticize it, they make memes about it. They acknowledge it. Yeah but why actually discuss that when you can yell at people to do it for you
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Jul 28, 2022 17:35
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ruddiger posted:Goons are prideful war machine apologists. Wow huge if true
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Jul 28, 2022 17:50
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Scuffy_1989 posted:Should have had a Maple leaf on the F-14. Apparently we were actually considering it back in the late 70s, when we ended up buying the CF-18. At first we turned down the Tomcat because of the high initial cost and the expensive maintenance. But then, the Shah got overthrown and Iran was stuck with a bunch of big Yank fighters and no service or supply contract for them, so our government saw an opportunity to score a fleet of modern aircraft at bargain basement prices. Apparently negotiations were going great right up until our diplomats' role in the Iran hostage situation became known, and Iran kiboshed the deal.
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Jul 28, 2022 17:51
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Shageletic posted:Wow huge if true That’s probably too harsh, I should amend it to goons turn into war machine apologists if it jacks them off hard enough.
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Jul 28, 2022 17:52
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ruddiger posted:That’s probably too harsh, I should amend it to goons turn into war machine apologists if it jacks them off hard enough. Keep going almost there
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Jul 28, 2022 17:56
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Phy posted:Apparently we were actually considering it back in the late 70s, when we ended up buying the CF-18. At first we turned down the Tomcat because of the high initial cost and the expensive maintenance. Now you get some leafs on those f35s.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:07
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im 14yo and never before considered that america was bad and that mr tom cruise's big film presents a sanitized, simplified depiction of the us air force. ty brave posters for exposing this difficult truth before i enlisted. you are doing god's work on the something awful dot com forums.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:16
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It's ok to say something is propaganda but it is also ok say that the movie kicks rear end despite that. I really enjoyed the two Wolf Warrior movies cause they had solid action but could also recognize them for what they are. Getting peeved at people for responding to some long borderline incoherent post (was anyone saying iran didn't have snow?) with anything other than "lol" is pretty silly
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Jul 28, 2022 18:47
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But you see a thing can only be Right or Wrong in my emotionally stunted mind...
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Jul 28, 2022 18:52
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QuoProQuid posted:im 14yo and never before considered that america was bad and that mr tom cruise's big film presents a sanitized, simplified depiction of the us air force. it owns that this line of reasoning is why the military and law enforcement are filled with violent racists.
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Jul 28, 2022 19:40
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Cop movies and war movies are my favorite things. Cops suck and wars suck. The duality of men? 
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Jul 28, 2022 20:00
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Vegetable posted:Cop movies and war movies are my favorite things. Cops suck and wars suck. The duality of men? no ur not allowed 2 like this
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Jul 28, 2022 20:02
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My attachment to my morals and ideological views are secure enough that I can enjoy and allow others to enjoy works of fiction that include elements that I believe are wrong or problematic, AMA.
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Jul 28, 2022 20:21
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The popularity or acceptance of movies that are propaganda for the US military machine can have some bad effects but it's merely a symptom of a larger problem, that problem being that most Americans don't inherently object to the US military machine. You have, at most, popular opposition to certain wars (which itself takes time, both Vietnam and Iraq started with most people on the pro-war side and only turning when it became obvious what disasters they were)- but they still think "yeah we need an army/navy/air force to defend ourselves." Most people, audience members, etc. can conceive of a situation where the US might be justified in bombing "the bad guys". So of course the main scenario of this movie isn't going to faze most people, since the bad guys aren't identified (and hence aren't a group that might raise an objection in themselves.) And people HERE, on this site, are generally aware of the problems of the US military industrial complex so I'm not sure you're really aiming at the people who need to hear whatever it is you're saying.
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Jul 28, 2022 20:33
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ruddiger posted:Goons are prideful war machine apologists. well yea, don cheadle owns
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Jul 28, 2022 20:44
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ruddiger posted:it owns that this line of reasoning is why the military and law enforcement are filled with violent racists.
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Jul 28, 2022 21:08
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Maxwell Lord posted:The popularity or acceptance of movies that are propaganda for the US military machine can have some bad effects but it's merely a symptom of a larger problem, that problem being that most Americans don't inherently object to the US military machine. You have, at most, popular opposition to certain wars (which itself takes time, both Vietnam and Iraq started with most people on the pro-war side and only turning when it became obvious what disasters they were)- but they still think "yeah we need an army/navy/air force to defend ourselves." Most people, audience members, etc. can conceive of a situation where the US might be justified in bombing "the bad guys". So of course the main scenario of this movie isn't going to faze most people, since the bad guys aren't identified (and hence aren't a group that might raise an objection in themselves.) And also that part of film escapism is sometimes accepting fantasy of things that don't work out like they do in the real world. "Love at first sight" when people turbo-jump into being all into someone and putting them on a pedestal right away and do ridiculous nonsensical grand gestures ends up like Revolutionary Road or worse at the end, not like Big Fish, but it's fun to look at a Big Fish every now and then for the fantasy of "what if this worked this way." Demons don't exist, faith and religion are a huge problem - but it's fun doing a "what if" in watching The Exorcist and seeing a guy who went completely secular regaining his faith. And so on. It becomes hard to say "we can't make a movie where this thing happens because some people will take it the wrong way" because it will be hard to get any escapism in that case because some people will always take things too far or the wrong way.
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Jul 28, 2022 21:31
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Yeah and things like "military conflict" and "crime solving/law enforcement" are just familiar and good structures for stories and you don't always have room to thoroughly disentangle them from the morality of such institutions in real life.
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Jul 28, 2022 21:41
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B-Rock452 posted:Literally no one has said otherwise in this thread, people have just been saying "wow this movie kind of rocks" and then random goons Kramer in and yell "have you considered that America sucks" and then get angry when their incoherent posting does not get a desired reaction this happens all over the forums. there was someone in the mtg thread who went off about united states foreign policy while discussing card languages
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Jul 28, 2022 22:07
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ruddiger posted:it rocks that this line of reasoning is why the military and law enforcement are filled with violent racists.
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Jul 29, 2022 01:45
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What precise line of reasoning are you even referring to
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Jul 29, 2022 02:05
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Critiquing the politics of a movie where a 56-year-old fighter pilot is the best in the world and survives a high-altitude explosion at Mach 10 seems like a waste of time to me but what do I know
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Jul 29, 2022 05:05
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War machines are good. Should've made the bad guys explicitly Russian so I could loudly cheer when they get blown up.
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Jul 30, 2022 08:04
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mobby_6kl posted:War machines are good. Should've made the bad guys explicitly Russian so I could loudly cheer when they get blown up. Have you seen the original Red Dawn?
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Jul 30, 2022 09:03
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Scuffy_1989 posted:Have you seen the original Red Dawn?
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Jul 30, 2022 16:25
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TheNamedSavior posted:The people who loving make money off of the airplanes that kill brown children in the middle east have a webpage dedicated to this movie. There's a difference between a shirt being made by a child slave and a weapon made to kill children of any class. 
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Jul 30, 2022 18:01
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the planes fly fast, low. Bogeys on your six Maverick! tango down, thanks Goose .
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Jul 30, 2022 18:18
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TheNamedSavior posted:The people who loving make money off of the airplanes that kill brown children in the middle east have a webpage dedicated to this movie. There's a difference between a shirt being made by a child slave and a weapon made to kill children of any class. Good freaking point
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Jul 30, 2022 22:51
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What point
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Jul 30, 2022 23:35
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checkplease posted:What point gOoD fReAkiNg pOinT
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Jul 31, 2022 00:57
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Good freaking point
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Jul 31, 2022 02:36
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Maxwell Lord posted:Like it does portray a situation where US military action against another country is justified and then the question is whether such a thing could ever be true and- like, it's possible. Maybe it hasn't happened since 1941 but I'm no historian. It'll never be justified. And if the movie was really about that subject and not "look at these cool airplanes!" Then why loving depict the villains as faceless NPCs? (AKA: The alt-right handbook.) Wouldn't it work better to show how directly awful the villains are, and why exactly it's needed for the americans to invade their country and somehow not cause an nuclear war right afterwards? The movie would've still sucked if it had done this, and I still would've hated it, but I bring this up to point out how much this movie is brought by committee, not by creative thought. Yet SA loves to praise it as the second coming of jesus just because WOW COOL EXPLOSIONS. ninjahedgehog posted:Yeah but why actually discuss that when you can yell at people to do it for you An terrible rebuttal. 1. What do you think I'm doing? 2. You can't discuss something without other people agreeing to. 3. It's stupid how an leftist communist is easily swayed by 80's nostalgia. It deserves to be pointed out. Scuffy_1989 posted:TheNamedSavior, do you feel nuclear proliferation is a good thing? No, and no, Top Gun does not support Nuclear Proliferation. If it does, then it's loving stupider than I thought, cause a single raid isn't gonna cause all of the scientists within whatever country they were invading to just forget how to build nukes. And it'll lead to them just invading america BACK anyways. Which is why this movie doesn't gently caress, it just loving sucks. Why the hell do they act like the movie's ending is happy? tom loving cruise just STARTED A WAR, that's not a happy ending, that's the prequel to The Day After. Yet, it's good storytelling because "Not All Stories need to obey reality." Surely there's a difference between "A love on first sight situation doesn't actually work" and "this movie is going to lead to a nuclear war", right? B-Rock452 posted:I really enjoyed the two Wolf Warrior movies cause they had solid action but could also recognize them for what they are. Getting peeved at people for responding to some long borderline incoherent post (was anyone saying iran didn't have snow?) with anything other than "lol" is pretty silly You're literally giving money to war profiteers, my man. Every loving dollar made on this movie is not going somewhere good, expect for maybe the actors (and even then they probably only got paid right after the shoot, and not actually off of the money from the box office). wins32767 posted:My attachment to my morals and ideological views are secure enough that I can enjoy and allow others to enjoy works of fiction that include elements that I believe are wrong or problematic, AMA. The loving "seperate reality from fiction" poo poo goes out of the window with assholes like bill cosby. Do you really think he would've gotten as far as he did without the million dollar franchise depicting him as an friendly non-rapist? I doubt it. (Without large amounts of fame and money, the bastard would've been a body in a morgue by now, realistically.) And I doubt it just as much with a movie that was funded by war profiteers to, presumably, get people (i.e. the average american citizen who thinks liking biden is equal to being a supporter of equal rights) into airplanes that are usually used to blow up brown children. I'm pretty sure the movie that you spend to see it in a crowded theater full of hill billies is gonna be used to help fund the church of scientology's blackmailers, judging from cruise's religious beliefs. Apparently no one on Something Awful realizes that Culture includes Movies, and that Movies, just like Culture (which it is part of), can direct people to do terrible things thanks to misinformation. Don't believe me? Look up The Jaws Effect. Maxwell Lord posted:And people HERE, on this site, are generally aware of the problems of the US military industrial complex so I'm not sure you're really aiming at the people who need to hear whatever it is you're saying. Because its funny how you're allowed to dunk on Captain Marvel for being air force propaganda, you're allowed to dunk on Black Panther for cia propaganda, and you're allowed to dunk on the concept of Superheros in general for being (arguably) pro-fascist, and many other problematic genres/tropes (I.E. Always Chaotic Evil Orcs), but you can't criticize Top Gun because...something something airplanes are cool. Yet, the supposedly leftist SA community seems to see no issues with supporting such a idiotic movie, even when it's as close to an american remake of, say, a Japanese movie that glorified it's airplanes bombing Pearl Harbor, or the like. The airplanes are just too cool, I guess. Maxwell Lord posted:Yeah and things like "military conflict" and "crime solving/law enforcement" are just familiar and good structures for stories and you don't always have room to thoroughly disentangle them from the morality of such institutions in real life. "Bootlicking movies are just INHERENTLY GOOD STORIES" lmao, okay, here's a take, have the "crime solvers" be activists or hackivists going after capitalists instead of cops going after black people! Wow, that was hard. quote:Lawrence Wright's 2013 book Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief and Alex Gibney's 2015 television documentary adaptation of the same name cast a spotlight on Cruise's role in Scientology. The book and the film both allege that the Scientology organization groomed romantic partners for Cruise and that Cruise used Sea Org and Rehabilitation Project Force workers as a source of free labor. In the film, Cruise's former auditor Marty Rathbun claims that wife Nicole Kidman was wiretapped on Tom Cruise's suggestion, which Cruise's lawyer denies. Cruise's ex-girlfriend Nazanin Boniadi later compared the Scientology organization's auditioning of women to date Cruise and experiences with him to "white slavery."
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Jul 31, 2022 03:01
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So it would've been better had they explicitly said it was Iran?
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Jul 31, 2022 03:18
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TheNamedSavior posted:It'll never be justified. So was it justified in 1941? quote:No, and no, Top Gun does not support Nuclear Proliferation. If it does, then it's loving stupider than I thought, cause a single raid isn't gonna cause all of the scientists within whatever country they were invading to just forget how to build nukes. And it'll lead to them just invading america BACK anyways. Will they? Does this country have the infrastructure to mount an effective counterattack? quote:Why the hell do they act like the movie's ending is happy? tom loving cruise just STARTED A WAR, that's not a happy ending, that's the prequel to The Day After. Yet, it's good storytelling because "Not All Stories need to obey reality." Surely there's a difference between "A love on first sight situation doesn't actually work" and "this movie is going to lead to a nuclear war", right? Again not supported by the text. Does this nation want to fight a massive global war? Can it? Or is this more like one of the times we threw missles at Iraq and Hussein did nothing? That was wrong of course but it did not lead to a thermonuclear exchange. You’re conflating the movie’s heroic actions being wrong with them inevitably leading to DEFCON 1 and the first is a yes and the second is a no. quote:Apparently no one on Something Awful realizes that Culture includes Movies, and that Movies, just like Culture (which it is part of), can direct people to do terrible things thanks to misinformation. Yes and I’ll bring up how Full Metal Jacket also got a lot of people to join the Armed Forces so is Kubrick’s film equally contemptible? quote:Because its funny how you're allowed to dunk on Captain Marvel for being air force propaganda, you're allowed to dunk on Black Panther for cia propaganda, and you're allowed to dunk on the concept of Superheros in general for being (arguably) pro-fascist, and many other problematic genres/tropes (I.E. Always Chaotic Evil Orcs), but you can't criticize Top Gun because...something something airplanes are cool. You can criticize it all you want! It’s just that nobody’s particularly interested in debating it! quote:”Bootlicking movies are just INHERENTLY GOOD STORIES" lmao, okay, here's a take, have the "crime solvers" be activists or hackivists going after capitalists instead of cops going after black people! Wow, that was hard. Okay but A) that’s more a heist movie structure (as evidenced by Leverage) and B) the non-police crime solver trope is also problematic because it’s rooted in private detective agencies like the Pinkertons who were mostly relied upon for union busting. This doesn’t necessarily mean Colombo is a cop but it makes it hard to really come up with a “positive” backing for a mystery story. (And also the thing with exposing capitalists is that they tend to do their evil in the open, and the past decade+ has been a lesson in the fact that shaming doesn’t work if you have no conscience and can attract similarly corrupted others.)
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Jul 31, 2022 03:24
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Like my fellow person I do not know what you're hoping to get out of this conversation, I already paid for the ticket
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Jul 31, 2022 03:56
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That poster always seems angry in nearly every thread they post in. They should smoke some weed and chill.
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Jul 31, 2022 04:41
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