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Thanks, that makes sense. Speaking of East/South, I think I've read ITT that once you're expert you're supposed to play South games?
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Jul 29, 2022 10:31
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Fat Samurai posted:Thanks, that makes sense. Less supposed to and more it gets progressively more difficult to find East games the higher up you go. Gold is where more people start to play South than East. You can play whichever you want, just keep queue times and consistency in mind.
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Jul 29, 2022 10:33
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South games aren't the mad scramble for points that East games usually are. There's more room for playing strategically. I find that more interesting, but ymmv.
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Jul 29, 2022 12:40
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In tenhou at least, east/fast games (with a short discard timer) remain popular for the times you want to play a ten minute match, but east/normal is new player room only
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Jul 29, 2022 14:16
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Just snakebit lately, no tiles are falling. Even calling riichi on the first tile and could not win. Am about to fall bad to adept 1
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Aug 2, 2022 16:02
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Bilirubin posted:Just snakebit lately, no tiles are falling. Even calling riichi on the first tile and could not win. Am about to fall bad to adept 1 I feel your pain. Fell from adept 3 to adept 2 and struggling to try earn new rank point income. It seems the Demons of Mahjong are making me pay dearly for the 13 Orphans I got. I find that playing east games and taking no risks is best for rank points, although grindy. You can't be last at 25 000 points. (This might be terrible advice, just speaking from my experience, not from a place of any skill).
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Aug 3, 2022 13:25
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East games are fine but it is really hard to make up for lost ground in them. If you deal into a mangan+ you're basically finished. In a South game you can probably claw it back if you play well enough.
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Aug 3, 2022 13:37
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Relyssa posted:East games are fine but it is really hard to make up for lost ground in them. If you deal into a mangan+ you're basically finished. In a South game you can probably claw it back if you play well enough. I've seen someone absolutely rip their way back to a hearty second place from literally zero points in a south game.
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Aug 3, 2022 14:02
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I mean its gotten bad enough that given some of the interactions I have had recently I have wondered whether there are hacks out that allow you to peer at competitors holdings or brigand play. BUT, finally managed to win a hand or two and place first, which helped keep me at Adept 2 for now.
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Aug 3, 2022 15:06
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What should I do when I have 4 pairs and a single ankou? There are basically three options. I can discard the triplet so I have more ways to get closer to chiitoitsu. I can keep the triplet, but stay closed. Or I can keep the triplet and plan to call pon and attempt toitoi. I read up a bit, and it seems like consensus among good players is that going for toitoi in this situation is almost always a mistake; it’s not really faster than chiitoi, it’s obvious, and it leaves you in a bad spot if you decide to fold later. But I’m still not sure about the first two. I tend to keep the triplet if it’s yakuhai, dora or if my hand can unusually quickly improve to a normal hand, and leave it if my hand doesn’t have any good waits, but I have no idea if that’s right or wrong.
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Aug 12, 2022 22:56
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4 pairs, 5 if you pitch the ankou third, is pretty dang close to chiitoi so you may as well go for it. If it's dora, keep it if you really need the points and throw it otherwise, if it's yakuhai then you can try to get a speedy hand, but 99% of the time I'm pivoting that hand into chiitoi.
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Aug 12, 2022 23:07
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Never looked into it, how does playing riichi with gambling work? I assume it's not just buy in for (some fraction or multiple of) 25000￥ and cash your sticks out at the end cause it wouldn't add up with someone going into negative.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:46
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KICK BAMA KICK posted:Never looked into it, how does playing riichi with gambling work? I assume it's not just buy in for (some fraction or multiple of) 25000￥ and cash your sticks out at the end cause it wouldn't add up with someone going into negative. Mahjong parlors usually have set rates of $ / 1k points. The two common ones are tenpin (100 yen / 1000 points) and tengo (50 yen / 1000 points). I believe parlors will ask for some sort of deposit in advance to make sure you can settle your debts, especially if you go negative as you noticed. There's generally 3 layers of rules for gambling in riichi. You're probably already unintentionally familiar with 2 of them just by playing on Mahjong Soul. 1. Oka - If you ever noticed why the score for ending a game is 30,000 even though your starting score is 25,000, that's because you ante up 5,000 points into the pot at the start of every game. The entire pot goes to the winner of a game. 2. Uma - An additional bonus applied to your score at the end of the match based on placement. This is what the green/red numbers you see at the end of a match on Majsoul represent. Then your point difference is converted to a cash amount according to the parlor rate. 3. Shuugi - Luck based gambling. If you ever bought a real set and wondered what the poker chips were for, it's for this. A winning hand gets chips based on: the number of hidden red dora, the number of ura dora, and 1 if you got ippatsu. The thing about shuugi is that if you tsumo you get the same number of chips from each player instead of dividing it up. Chips get converted to cash based on some set rate.
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Aug 14, 2022 02:28
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nrook posted:What should I do when I have 4 pairs and a single ankou? For ease of completion, what you should consider is how hard it is to upgrade your pairs into triples. In general, 456 tiles are very difficult to call due to their versatility, 2378 are somewhat difficult to call (very difficult if they're dora) and terminals/honours are usually easy to call. You also need to consider the existing discards to evaluate the difficulty of upgrading pairs; if one of your pairs is dead (i.e. two already discarded), it's worse than a live 456 pair and there's no point in pursuing toitoi. In general, as long as you only have one difficult pair to upgrade, pursuing toitoi is realistic. One difficult pair and one somewhat difficult pair is usually an edge case with an answer of no, but value could tip the scale in the other direction. Even in the case where you have two difficult pairs to upgrade you might want to hold on to your ankou for a while because there's always a chance you draw another ankou, in which case you have a chance at toitoi + san ankou and even suu ankou tenpai down the line; you just want to avoid calling and committing to toitoi. Of course, if a player discards a tile for a hard to call pair then that pair stops being difficult to call so you can re-evaluate your hand if that happens. For example if your hand had a 55 pair and a 66 pair, this would normally tell you not to pursue toitoi, but if someone discards a 5, then depending on your other 2 pairs calling might make the hand faster than chitoi (this is another situation that makes keeping ankous worthwhile). Note that upgrading a triple can also cause other pairs to become easier to call; for example, suppose you have 6677 in a single suit, if you get the opportunity to call the 6, players may discard the 7 soon after since your triplet makes it hard to use. For the second factor, value, toitoi by itself is usually not considered worth it, but toitoi with 1 extra han from anything (yakuhai, red five, tanyao) is usually worth going for because it's 5200 points minimum for a non-dealer, and having 2 extra han gives mangan. If you already have a yakuhai ankou or you're given the opportunity to call it it's usually worth doing just because you can still pivot away from toitoi if something happens that makes developing toitoi harder, and the speed upgrade from opening your hand is better than staying closed. The flip side of this observation is that if you have a dora in your hand and it's not paired up, it's generally better to go chitoi for the manga/haneman chance (riichi chitoi dora 2 with tsumo/ura chance) unless the path to toitoi also gives you mangan or better, e.g. two yakuhai + toitoi or honitsu + toitoi. For the last case you mentioned, which is when you have the rare hand that can both progress as a normal hand (but not necessarily toitoi) and chitoi, you should go with a normal hand whenever possible unless the wait of the normal hand is not significantly better than chitoi, since chitoi has a low winrate if your wait isn't a terminal or honour.
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Aug 14, 2022 07:34
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Hi goons. Someone mind helping me figure out why I couldn't call a winning hand here despite acquiring the pon of red dragons off a steal? ....actually, why did it only let me call pon instead of ron?  (I am West here.) SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 15:32
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It looks like you were in furiten since you discarded the 2 of characters and that would complete your hand. It's hard to tell what's happening there since it's not clear whose turn it is. e: Yeah, that's exactly it. You have a tile in your discards that would complete your hand, so you're not allowed to call ron on anything.
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Aug 14, 2022 15:38
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North discarded the red dragon, I yoinked it with the intent to give me a yaku, but did not get a ron prompt. Are you saying the act of me breaking my pon of 2 of characters to allocate that as my pair to open up getting a triplet of red dragons for yaku screwed me?
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Aug 14, 2022 16:07
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SwissArmyDruid posted:North discarded the red dragon, I yoinked it with the intent to give me a yaku, but did not get a ron prompt. Yes. You cannot win by ron if there are any tiles you could complete your hand with in your discard (or taken by someone else that you discarded). Furiten is probably the most-asked-about rule in r/mahjong too, in this exact way, other than "having no yaku at all". What you could do in your situation is discard another 2, then whatever your next draw is, keep that and discard yet another 2, and hey presto you probably aren't in furiten anymore!
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Aug 14, 2022 16:10
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This fuckin' game, man.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:12
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It's definitely the biggest gotcha rule specific to Japanese mahjong, but once you understand it adds a ton of strategic depth to the game. An alternate plan you could have done after drawing the third 2m is cutting both of your red dragons and going for all simples.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:25
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People are making furiten a lot more complicated than it really is. Furiten is a state for you, the player. Not any specific tile, or hand or anything. The only thing it does is: Your Ron button is disabled. You can still win with tsumo and do any other action you can normally do. And there is only one way to get into a furiten state: If there is a tile in your discards that would make your current hand a valid mahjong hand (4 groups + a pair or 7 pairs or 13 Orphans). It does not care about yaku or if it's even possible to win with that hand at this point.
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Aug 14, 2022 16:35
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I'm curious what you think I said that was more complicated :p
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Aug 14, 2022 16:36
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Tamba posted:And there is only one way to get into a furiten state: If there is a tile in your discards that would make your current hand a valid mahjong hand (4 groups + a pair or 7 pairs or 13 Orphans). I don't think that's completely accurate. You can also get into temporary furiten when you do not call ron on your winning tile (permanent furiten if done during riichi).
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Aug 14, 2022 16:53
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BoldFace posted:I don't think that's completely accurate. You can also get into temporary furiten when you do not call ron on your winning tile (permanent furiten if done during riichi). This is correct and extremely important. Temporary furiten is there specifically so you can't target a specific player (e.g. shimocha discards your winning tile, you pass, then toimen discards the same tile so you call a win on them to screw them over).
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Aug 14, 2022 16:55
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Right: there are two ways of getting your hand into a furiten state; both have to do with tiles that would put your hand into a 'complete' shape, that is, four sets (sequence, triplet, or kan) and one pair. It does not care about whether or not that complete hand would have any yaku to actually win. As mentioned, furiten just means that you are not allowed to call ron on another player's discard, but you can still call tsumo on your own draws. The most common type of furiten is discard furiten. That's when you have a tile in your discards that would complete your hand. So, as you've seen, if you have 22m234p77z (7z being notation for a Red Dragon), you are furiten from discarding a 2m previously, since it would have 'completed' your hand, despite no yaku. You can remove this furiten state by changing your tiles in hand so that the winning tiles you're waiting on do not match your discards. Don't forget that discarded tiles that other players call still count as your discards; that's why the called tile is rotated in open melds! The less common form of furiten is declined win furiten. That's when you decline to call ron on another player's discard. For example, let's say I've got an open tanyao / All Simples hand going on, and I'm waiting to complete off of 45678p. If the player to my right discards a 9p, I can't call to win, and I'm in furiten. If the player across or to my left then discards 3p or 6p, I can't call ron. As mentioned by Relyssa, declined win furiten also helps protect against targeting a specific player, in case the same winning tile is discarded by different players. The good news is that the furiten state clears once it is my turn again, and I've made a draw. However, if I had called riichi and declined to call ron, then the declined win furiten state is permanent for the rest of the hand. While I could possibly change my hand composition on my turns outside of riichi, that isn't possible in riichi. Not calling a tile while in riichi is stronger information than when not in riichi. Declining ron while in riichi is rare because riichi is itself a yaku. But it can happen in cases where the point situation calls for it. Maybe I'd rather not knock out that last-place player with a direct hit, and get one more han from tsumo to take 1st instead of 2nd.
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Aug 14, 2022 17:18
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Thanks, very interesting, and like everything else about riichi, that seems unnecessarily complicated in a fun way.
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Aug 15, 2022 00:22
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my personal rule for chiitoi is only intentionally pursue it if i've got at least four pairs in the first row of discards, preferably five. more often than not i end up in chiitoi by accident, though. i'll be sitting on a bunch of sequential pairs hoping they'll be twin sequences and then the riichi button pops for a yaku i forgot aboutKICK BAMA KICK posted:Thanks, very interesting, and like everything else about riichi, that seems unnecessarily complicated in a fun way. all the mahjong variants i'm aware of feel that way, like we're playing another family's generations-long house rules for poker or something. which i imagine is not too far off from how we got a lot of the more arcane rules.
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Aug 15, 2022 03:26
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SixteenShells posted:my personal rule for chiitoi is only intentionally pursue it if i've got at least four pairs in the first row of discards, preferably five. more often than not i end up in chiitoi by accident, though. i'll be sitting on a bunch of sequential pairs hoping they'll be twin sequences and then the riichi button pops for a yaku i forgot about generations-long house rules for big 2.
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Aug 15, 2022 04:05
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SwissArmyDruid posted:generations-long house rules for big 2. but enough about Tichu
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Aug 15, 2022 04:26
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Those jokes rated 1 han
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Aug 15, 2022 04:39
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man we had some hosed up house rules to accommodate high school lunch table big 2. one of them involved adding a second deck using those novelty miniature playing cards, the result of which we called big 2 little 2
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Aug 15, 2022 04:52
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dragon enthusiast posted:man we had some hosed up house rules to accommodate high school lunch table big 2. one of them involved adding a second deck using those novelty miniature playing cards, the result of which we called big 2 little 2 That is frankly amazing.
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Aug 15, 2022 05:04
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1 round someone got double ronned 2 round someone got double ronned again. First time seeing someone get double double ronned.
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Aug 15, 2022 13:20
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Me: Stupid people calling stupid kan with no chance of winning just so I can get fleeced more. Also me: Kan! Press button! Yes!
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Aug 15, 2022 13:47
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Heath posted:If you don't call kan you're a coward
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Aug 15, 2022 14:43
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Big Mackson posted:1 round someone got double ronned You haven't lived until you've been triple ronned.
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Aug 15, 2022 15:12
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Relyssa posted:You haven't lived until you've been triple ronned. In a ruleset where triple ron causes a draw and you survive unharmed 
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Aug 15, 2022 15:19
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Had a game a few weeks ago where I intentionally kan'd to force a four kan draw because of how scary everyone else's hands were looking. Rarely have I felt like such a rude little stinker as I did in that moment.
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Aug 15, 2022 15:30
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SixteenShells posted:Had a game a few weeks ago where I intentionally kan'd to force a four kan draw because of how scary everyone else's hands were looking. Rarely have I felt like such a rude little stinker as I did in that moment. I also had a game like that, but I did my kan with only 5 tiles left, because I wasn't in Tenpai and did not want to lose 3000 points at game end. While we are doing kan confessions I also have broken a red dragon kan in hand just to have 4 safe discards. I admit my cowardice.
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Aug 16, 2022 06:45
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Hraathgar posted:I also had a game like that, but I did my kan with only 5 tiles left, because I wasn't in Tenpai and did not want to lose 3000 points at game end. Obviously that would be a kanfession
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Aug 16, 2022 11:16
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