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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Yup. She was willing to be alongside Manchin to tank the BBB, but she'll be killing this bill on her own, and people are wondering if shes going to be able to do it. Honestly, I'm pretty sure she's going to kill it; she probably sees this as her chance to recreate the "John McCain ruins hopes and dreams of the Republican caucus by killing Obamacare repeal" scene. She loves to ride that "maverick, buck-your-own-party" train.
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Jul 29, 2022 14:21
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nevermind
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Jul 29, 2022 14:22
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I mean Schumer and Manchin have been skipping around Congress giggling like the Joker and Riddler from the Adam West Batman tv show who just revealed their secret team-up and successful bank heist. They're going to look incredibly stupid if it all blows up in their face because they neglected to mention to Catwoman her part in the plot. But yeah, that would also be incredibly on brand for the Dems.
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Jul 29, 2022 14:31
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Cpt_Obvious posted:General question to the thread: I think she does things for money and power. People with more money give it to her. Seems to be working. All the empty-headed manic pixie dreamgirl bullshit is definitely misogynistic.
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Jul 29, 2022 14:47
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I'll believe the bill has a chance of passing when it's signed by Biden. Something is gonna give at the last minute.
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Jul 29, 2022 14:49
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So, its "she doesn't really care about re-election, she's planning to make a lot of money". Cool theory. How does continuing to be a Senator after 2024, and not sacrificing the massive amount of power and influence she would have had over the direction of the country for a very long time prevent her from making a lot of money? It is more believable that she wanted to continue to be a Senator, but she is torching her political future out of some misguided and very stupid belief on what she needs to do to be re-elected. Rigel fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 14:50
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i find avarice to be a very believable motive
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Jul 29, 2022 14:55
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BiggerBoat posted:They don't give a gently caress about the military or vets and I'm not sure how they managed to corral that label of the pro military party. It's mostly just platitudes and showing off by worshiping the national anthem and poo poo. Wrapping yourself in the flag works. Telling people you are holy because God saw fit to give you wealth and status confirms biases, even if it goes against the teachings of Christianity, even if the people who believe it will never see an ounce of success. People will believe what other people say and disregard actions. People will believe what other people say and disregard other things they say when it's convenient to their own subjective reality. Cons work. Advertisement works. Propaganda works. often enough, those that see through it in one context have their own biases and perspective that keep them from believing it of themselves, the groups/people they agree with or are in their lives. My musical tastes are the best because I listen to the most complex, interesting stuff. Popular music is simplistic, catchy nonsense. Musical theory confirms I am right. Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 14:55
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The DOE has finalized the legal arguments and mechanisms for mass student loan forgiveness that they believe will hold up to legal scrutiny. This is the result of that memo from April instructing the DOJ and DOE to determine whether the President had the authority to legally cancel student loan debt on his own and how the DOE could do so. the status of the DOJ memo is not clear, but it seems like they wouldn't put together this plan and develop a legal strategy to defend it if the DOJ came back with a "No." The memo also highlights some new things that have not been discussed before. Note: This does not mean that these things are definitely going to be part of Biden's forgiveness plan, but it means they were being considered seriously enough to be asked to look into whether they could do it and develop a legal defense for it. The new details: - They would apply the forgiveness to ALL federal loan types. That includes Grad and Parent PLUS loans as well as federal loans owned by private entities. - Borrowers who have ever received a Pell Grant or financial assistance for low-income families would get bonus debt forgiven as both a way to skew the benefits away from richer graduates and to act as a "refund" for the Pell Grants and low-income aid. - The final details and decision on whether to go forward/how far to go forward are expected by the end of August. - They are also going to extend the student loan pause until at least 2023, but also considering one single extension to July 2023 instead of several 3 month extensions to give people more certainty. - The DOE has determined that they could cancel most of the debt automatically within 45 days and almost all eligible borrowers within 90 days. If you have loans, but have never made a payment, filed taxes, or submitted your income to qualify for financial aid, then you will need to go to the DOE website and certify your information. - They looked at the feasibility of income limits and giving bonus forgiveness beyond $10,000 to people on the lower income scale. Benefits would phase out or be unavailable for households making more than $250,000 in adjusted gross income (which, depending on your tax situation, would be somewhere between $262,000 and $320,000 gross). - They are looking at structuring the forgiveness to "maximize borrower benefits" for borrowers with multiple loans by applying it to the highest interest loans in descending order (ex: If you have a 7% interest loan for $5k, a 6% interest loan for $8k, and 4% interest loan for $3k, then the $10k forgiveness would clear all of the 7% first, then clear $5k of the 6% interest loan). - They plan to re-amortize student loans after forgiveness to calculate a new monthly payment based on the remaining balance to require smaller monthly payments. - They looked at a cutoff date for forgiveness. Which means you had to have gotten your loan issued before July 1st, 2022 to qualify for forgiveness. - They are looking into automatically providing forgiveness for borrowers currently in default, but that would happen on a longer timeline. They are also going to expunge all current default records and penalties for a "fresh start" for borrowers (this has already been announced and confirmed). Also, not new information, but Virginia Foxx - the Republican ranking member of the education committee - has reaffirmed that they will legally challenge any mass forgiveness plan. quote:Republicans who oppose student debt cancellation have vowed to fight any mass forgiveness program, arguing that it would be economically unsound and legally dubious. Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-N.C.), the top GOP lawmaker on the House education committee, is adamantly opposed to sweeping loan forgiveness but has also raised concerns about the department’s capacity to carry out such a plan. https://twitter.com/mstratford/status/1552770892660342786 quote:Top Education Department officials have developed detailed plans to carry out student loan forgiveness for millions of Americans as they wait on President Joe Biden to make a final decision, according to internal agency documents obtained by POLITICO. quote:The Education Department documents do not reflect any final decisions on how the White House may ultimately choose to structure a debt relief program, including the amount of relief for borrowers or any income limits, if they pursue any program at all. But the documents show some of the ideas the administration is taking seriously and circulating among senior leaders — and, importantly, how the agency would be prepared to execute them. quote:In addition, the department officials floated the possibility of a June 30, 2022 cut-off for any loan forgiveness program, requiring loans to be disbursed before that date to qualify for relief. quote:In addition, the Education Department is exploring the possibility of automatically providing loan forgiveness to the roughly 8 million borrowers in default. “Due to outstanding policy and legal questions, this is on a longer timeframe,” the presentation for Cardona says. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/28/cancel-student-loans-education-department-00048365 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 14:57
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Rigel posted:So, its "she doesn't really care about re-election, she's planning to make a lot of money". Cool theory. Because she can do even less than what she already does and still make a shitload of money. Are you not aware of the Congress-to-lobbyist/consultant pipeline? It's not new. I would wager the vast majority of people who run for Congress are not, in fact, concerned about "influenc[ing]...the direction of the country." It's about making money, establishing networks, then making even more money off those networks. Again, what is more likely: that she's a total loving idiot who failed her way into the Senate, or she's behaving in a manner consistent with what many, many Senators before her have done?
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Jul 29, 2022 14:59
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Did they ever release that memo they redacted in pink?
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Jul 29, 2022 15:00
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Sharkie posted:Did they ever release that memo they redacted in pink? It was unfinished at the time. It's not clear when they actually finished it, but it has not been released publicly since they finished it. It would qualify for a FOIA request to make it public, though.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:03
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TipTow posted:Because she can do even less than what she already does and still make a shitload of money. I am aware of it, and it is a consolation prize for people who were defeated. None of these former congressmen/former Senators (who didn't retire, anyway) wanted to lose their election. edit: I never said ANYTHING about her "failing her way into the Senate", those are your words and assumptions, not mine. I'm just saying, whatever her history may have been, she is needlessly and pointlessly torching her Senate seat. Some of you people are starting from the assumption of "well she MUST know what she is doing, so I guess maybe she doesn't want to be a Senator after 2024 or its not a high priority for her". I completely and utterly reject that. I'm starting from the assumption that she, like everyone else in congress who is not retiring, wants to be re-elected. Rigel fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 15:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRlxSGf_ns
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Jul 29, 2022 15:05
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Rigel posted:edit: I never said ANYTHING about her "failing her way into the Senate", those are your words and assumptions, not mine. I'm just saying, whatever her history may have been, she is needlessly and pointlessly torching her Senate seat. That's correct, my apologies. Hyperbolizing what you did say: "torching her political future out of some misguided and very stupid belief on what she needs to do to be re-elected."
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Jul 29, 2022 15:14
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I'm legit interested in what made Manchin turn around on the bill and have him come out and ask for more of the things that will actually help people. This is incredibly out of the character he's portrayed for the past two years. Maybe Schumer finally got sick of his bullshit and threatened his chairs, or decided to put the screws into his daughters company. Or maybe Manchin finally saw what people were saying about him being the sole person blocking the climate provisions. Maybe his covid diagnosis scared him regarding his own mortality and he didn't want to be remembered as a giant piece of poo poo that hosed over the world. Or maybe this is all a game to him so he can get more news time and have everyone fawning over what he's gonna say next. I'm pleasantly surprised that he now claims to support it, but I'll only believe it will pass once Biden signs the drat thing.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:26
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TipTow posted:That's correct, my apologies. Hyperbolizing what you did say: "torching her political future out of some misguided and very stupid belief on what she needs to do to be re-elected." Well yeah, even smart people can do very stupid things for stupid reasons at least occasionally. I don't know how intelligent she is or isn't, but in this specific situation, she made some very stupid decisions if re-election is a high priority. And you have to assume it is for a relatively young one-term Senator.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:28
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Velocity Raptor posted:I'm legit interested in what made Manchin turn around on the bill and have him come out and ask for more of the things that will actually help people. It's literally just a 2-cup shell game. you never know whether the No vote is hidden under the Manchin cup or the Sinema cup.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:32
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Velocity Raptor posted:I'm legit interested in what made Manchin turn around on the bill and have him come out and ask for more of the things that will actually help people. This is incredibly out of the character he's portrayed for the past two years. He got permitting reform, tax changes, and (not officially yet, but seems likely) the West Virginia pipeline approval that he has been very upset has been delayed by the Biden administration. The 69.69% progress towards the Paris Accords carbon reduction goal would have been higher in the bill, but Manchin got permitting reform and approval for faster construction on pipelines and more federal leases. So, Manchin got a lot of stuff for the fossil fuel industry and his home state in exchange. There might be some other psychological or political reasons, but those are the changes he got.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:43
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BiggerBoat posted:Right? Also the Purple Heart band aids they wore to mock John Kerry and in addition to the Swift boat ads. Booing a gay soldier at the RNC. Making light of Max Cleeland's war injuries during a Georgia election. Pretty sure more than a few republicans have taken cheap shots at Tammy Duckworth. They don't give a gently caress about the military or vets and I'm not sure how they managed to corral that label of the pro military party. It's mostly just platitudes and showing off by worshiping the national anthem and poo poo. Very much so. Back in the Kerry Purple Heart deal they at least prepared the gound a bit, released a hitpiece book saying "Actually he's a coward and didn't earn those!". Since then they noticed they don't even need to do that much. If Eisenhower was around and had a D after his name, or simply defended, say, Medicare, the GOP would be saying he secretly wanted Hitler to win and was way too cozy with the russians. Fucker should have went for Moscow right after Berlin fell, they'd never have seen it coming, the pinko! I've had veteran friends in the US tell me that the whole social respect that comes with it has become very spotty, and mostly from VERY old folks. Personally, I've never really been all that hot for that kind of quasi-soviet First Citizen status to vets, but seeing it change is still interesting. One of them says that younger folk see soldiers in general as losers; the REAL cool guys are the spcial forces guys with Oakleys and bushy beards, running drugs and shooting wogs. Basically, if you want any respect simply for being a troop, you better ALSO be rich as gently caress so you can be a winner(tm).
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Jul 29, 2022 15:44
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Rigel posted:I am aware of it, and it is a consolation prize for people who were defeated. None of these former congressmen/former Senators (who didn't retire, anyway) wanted to lose their election. I think that assumption is flawed specifically because Senator's retire and they retire before they're old. An elected official choosing to "spend more time with their family" and then quickly landing in a high paying consultant/lobbyist/talking head position isn't uncommon and she has no obligation to be honest about her intentions to win a campaign she's running. I think you also both just ignore the idea that she's an intentional wrecker, that she's been promised personal gain in exchange for performing actions that drag the entire party down.
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Jul 29, 2022 15:49
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quote:In addition, the department officials floated the possibility of a June 30, 2022 cut-off for any loan forgiveness program, requiring loans to be disbursed before that date to qualify for relief. I love this poo poo. Gotta give forgiveness to a ton of people but definitely no one going forward! Starting school this fall? Too bad
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Jul 29, 2022 16:18
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mastershakeman posted:I love this poo poo. Gotta give forgiveness to a ton of people but definitely no one going forward! Starting school this fall? Too bad Forgiveness was always going to be a one-time thing. Even Bernie's plan was also a one time thing. It was supposed to be paired with Biden's loan reform plan, but that died. This is basically the band-aid/only thing they can do executively to follow through on some portion of the campaign promise. The federal portion of Obamacare's Medicaid expansion is still funded with student loan money and even if they wanted to/were able to just forgive the money forever, then they would need to pass a bill with an alternate funding source for the Medicaid expansion or else it will go bankrupt. Also, it would open it up to a huge amount of fraud/people grabbing $10k worth of loans in advance instead of being a method to relive student loan debt if it were allowed years in advance. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 16:23
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mastershakeman posted:I love this poo poo. Gotta give forgiveness to a ton of people but definitely no one going forward! Starting school this fall? Too bad Doesn't really make sense to announce you are going to forgive something prospectively, since it massively changes behavior, and would be a huge target for new kinds of fraud
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Jul 29, 2022 16:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Oh interesting. So, theoretically if it were to pass like this, this would apply to FFELP loans? That's what I have and was looking to consolidate to a Direct loan to take advantage of potential forgiveness. Would love to not have to do that.
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Jul 29, 2022 16:38
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BonoMan posted:Oh interesting. So, theoretically if it were to pass like this, this would apply to FFELP loans? That's what I have and was looking to consolidate to a Direct loan to take advantage of potential forgiveness. Would love to not have to do that. Under that scenario, yes. Your FFELP loan would count, but only if it is owned by the Department of Education. If it is a private/commercially owned loan, and not just serviced by a private company, then it isn't part of the DOE's balance sheet and they can't forgive it.
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Jul 29, 2022 16:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Under that scenario, yes. Your FFELP loan would count, but only if it is owned by the Department of Education. If it is a private/commercially owned loan, and not just serviced by a private company, then it isn't part of the DOE's balance sheet and they can't forgive it. Oh this quote:That includes Grad and Parent PLUS loans as well as federal loans owned by private entities. says owned and not serviced so I was getting all excited. Mine is owned (and serviced) by Mohela.
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Jul 29, 2022 16:46
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The federal portion of Obamacare's Medicaid expansion is still funded with student loan money and even if they wanted to/were able to just forgive the money forever, then they would need to pass a bill with an alternate funding source for the Medicaid expansion or else it will go bankrupt. Good lord it says a lot about this country that my current 0 cost insulin and diabetic supplies are only made possible by the continued enslavement of young college students to absurd amounts of debt. BonoMan posted:Oh this Yeah I'm gonna have this Navient poo poo hanging around my neck until the end of time huh.
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Jul 29, 2022 16:50
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BonoMan posted:Oh this Oh, you actually may be correct on that. The Politico piece doesn't go into details on that provision, but I assume they are counting subsidized FFELP loans if that is their definition of a federal loan "owned" by a private entity. You got the loan through the DOE directly via FFELP that paired you up with Mohela, right? You didn't go directly to them and get it from them?
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Jul 29, 2022 16:54
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Sephyr posted:Very much so. Back in the Kerry Purple Heart deal they at least prepared the gound a bit, released a hitpiece book saying "Actually he's a coward and didn't earn those!". Since then they noticed they don't even need to do that much. If Eisenhower was around and had a D after his name, or simply defended, say, Medicare, the GOP would be saying he secretly wanted Hitler to win and was way too cozy with the russians. Fucker should have went for Moscow right after Berlin fell, they'd never have seen it coming, the pinko! True. And they're also totally fine with people that avoid combat (or even enlistment) like Trump, W, Dick Cheney, Romney, Ted Nugent, Limbaugh...John Wayne, etc. but totally hate Muhammad Ali and Bill Clinton. And John Kerry for that matter.
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Jul 29, 2022 16:59
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah this fits perfectly Weed and polite racism
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Jul 29, 2022 17:00
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wait wait wait So if your loan repayments are done through like Navient or Aidvantage, you're screwed?
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Jul 29, 2022 17:00
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Cranappleberry posted:Wrapping yourself in the flag works. Telling people you are holy because God saw fit to give you wealth and status confirms biases, even if it goes against the teachings of Christianity, even if the people who believe it will never see an ounce of success. Basically Immigration, patriotism, religion, et al. Whoever said everything that was old is new again and played yakity sax was on it. The same type of people have been running the exact same playbook for 4000 years. Speaking of which DeSantis is currently going after ESG, which ofc has become another Conservative boogeyman, and his superfans are lapping it up like puppy chow. The current line of criticism about Biden changing the definition of recession is rather amusing considering the definition of "conservative" seems to mean literally anything at any time. DeSantis' workflow of checking his facebook feed to see what ridiculous conspiracy theories the RWM has used to whip Conservatives into a reality tv show frenzy, and then having a press conference about whatever bullshit executive actions his interns have come up with to target it, is refreshingly streamlined and free of obfuscation for the 21st century post-Trump GOP user manual. https://twitter.com/lesleyabravanel/status/1553043374566957056 -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 17:02
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Star Man posted:wait wait wait No. If they are owned by the federal government and Navient or Sallie Mae service them, then you're good. Also, the Politico piece doesn't clarify, but I assume if you have an old subsidized FFELP that is owned and serviced by a private lender, then you're good. If you got your loan directly from a private lender with no DOE involvement, then you're screwed.
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Jul 29, 2022 17:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Forgiveness was always going to be a one-time thing. Even Bernie's plan was also a one time thing. But every single college financial advisor is going to point kids at this forgiveness and say don't worry , you'll get forgiveness too ! Like Georgetown law showing the math on paye/ivr forgiveness and encouraging everyone to max out loans
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Jul 29, 2022 17:02
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this is the most correct reply in the thread or any of it's iterations, both in responding to the spirit of the questions asked and in the technical sense. also, the comments are good.
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Jul 29, 2022 17:05
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mastershakeman posted:I didn't know the medicaid expansion funding was tied to it, that's interesting. That's why the final version of the bill that created Obamacare/ACA is actually named "The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010." The second part is a good point. Although, I think colleges already push people to just get loans and give them money. That is one of the fair criticisms of student debt forgiveness on its own. The legitimate criticisms against student loan forgiveness are that it really should be paired with overall reform, it does skew the benefits toward richer people because the 1/3 of people that go to college are generally richer than the 2/3 that didn't, and your point about potential perverse incentives or expectations settings. But, the argument against those is "it's better than nothing and the only thing they can do directly right now." Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 17:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Oh, you actually may be correct on that. The Politico piece doesn't go into details on that provision, but I assume they are counting subsidized FFELP loans if that is their definition of a federal loan "owned" by a private entity. Correct. It's been *checks notes* 20 years but I def didn't go through Mohela directly. I was applying through the school.
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Jul 29, 2022 17:08
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Professor Beetus posted:
Man I hear you. I've been paying for years. I'm finally down to where I'll finally be done by 2025 - and sooner if I can get this forgiveness. But holy crap, every time I've gotten a raise my IBR would go up to where my new payment would eat up any raise I got. Now I'm making good money but my loan payment is the size of a second mortgage (b/c I'm over the threshold for IBR). I still drive a beater '08 Honda Civic! It has completely obliterated any class movement opportunities.
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Jul 29, 2022 17:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No. If they are owned by the federal government and Navient or Sallie Mae service them, then you're good. I went to cheap schools, so my saving grace is that everything I borrowed came from a federal source. I was just confused about the ownership of those loans for a minute. My problem is that I was flailing in undergrad for eight years until I finished, so I have more debt than people who went to the schools I went to that finished in four or five years. Would be nice if they just axed everything instead of only a small amount. I'll take what I can get, but yeesh ten grand won't cover enough.
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Jul 29, 2022 17:16
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