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Mendrian posted:I mean to put this in perspective, I went the high school in the late 90s, significantly after the height of what we would consider the AIDs crisis. I remember having a conversation with my mother around that time where we talked about AIDs and she said she was relieved I was straight because it couldn't be transmitted from 'straight' sex. I told her I was pretty sure that wasn't true, and left my mother with the uncomfortable revelation that anal sex was not a synonym for gay sex, which is what she had previously believed. "Blah blah blah, we need to coddle stupid bigoted rear end in a top hat and forgive them their stupidity." Like, sorry, the transmission of accurate, factual information is not the issue here. You can't have an organization which is tasked with disseminating scientific data, and then bitch when they do so! If you want to bitch about poo poo, bitch about the fact that you live in a pseudo-theocratic hellhole and no one's done gently caress all about it for hundreds of years. That's not the loving CDC's fault. We bitch at them when they alter their messaging for practical purposes, as they did with COVID isolation advice, we bitch at them when they shoot straight. I don't mean to be an rear end in a top hat, but, have we not set up a situation where they're the whipping boy no matter what they do? You have to deal with the homophobes. There's no other option. You can't live in fear of the giant body of homophobic, moronic assholes, and modify your behaviour to placate them; you must simple excise them from society, and salt the earth from which they grow.
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Aug 1, 2022 07:07
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PT6A posted:"Blah blah blah, we need to coddle stupid bigoted rear end in a top hat and forgive them their stupidity." it is extremely predictable that presenting information in a lovely fashion will cause queerbashing; i will choose to blame both the queerbashers and the people that enabled them in an extremely predictable fashion also the focus on MSM transmission above everything else is extremely bad in and of itself since that places an overemphasis on the group most likely to test themselves https://twitter.com/AP/status/1550459483113095168 this poo poo is both likely to victimize queer people and factually incorrect!
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Aug 1, 2022 07:16
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PT6A posted:"Blah blah blah, we need to coddle stupid bigoted rear end in a top hat and forgive them their stupidity." Oh drat that's right! We should just deal with the homophobes! Why didn't we think of that??
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Aug 1, 2022 07:36
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Mendrian posted:I mean to put this in perspective, I went the high school in the late 90s, significantly after the height of what we would consider the AIDs crisis. I remember having a conversation with my mother around that time where we talked about AIDs and she said she was relieved I was straight because it couldn't be transmitted from 'straight' sex. I told her I was pretty sure that wasn't true, and left my mother with the uncomfortable revelation that anal sex was not a synonym for gay sex, which is what she had previously believed. All the bigots I encounter on social media comment sections who are chanting 'groomer' have quickly picked up that Monkeypox is the new AIDS so here we are.
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Aug 1, 2022 08:02
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PT6A posted:"Blah blah blah, we need to coddle stupid bigoted rear end in a top hat and forgive them their stupidity." You really just sailed past their point that bad messaging negatively impacts well meaning people who are trying to use them as a source of knowledge. They're not releasing accurate factual information if you read the complaints, they're focusing on a specific community in their broadest messaging which is obviously confusing people.
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Aug 1, 2022 11:49
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A big flaming stink posted:who It's the opposite issue, she is doing insufficient sophistry. Like Greyjoy Bastard said, she's covering for poor public communication skills by answering each question with "only just all the facts" and 0 spin or concern for how the message will be understood. The office needs a sophist, that is to say someone who can start from the behavior the CDC wants to induce or avert and then calculate the best rhetoric to achieve that effect without outright lying. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 12:19
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They're not just sharing the data and analysis. They could have just said "please go to cdc_infodump.gov for all literally all of the monkey pox info" where all the numbers and poo poo are, but since that wouldn't be helpful they have to come up with a succinct and accurate description. Deciding what information is the most important and the implications is going to happen no matter what. They already did that. The problem is whether they did so constructively and without incurring undue risk. I agree with previous posters that they did a bad job.
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Aug 1, 2022 12:48
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There is absolutely way too much effort going to defending a government official who made a critical and horrible failure at their primary duty.
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Aug 1, 2022 13:04
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Gumball Gumption posted:You really just sailed past their point that bad messaging negatively impacts well meaning people who are trying to use them as a source of knowledge. They're not releasing accurate factual information if you read the complaints, they're focusing on a specific community in their broadest messaging which is obviously confusing people. The CDC and Walensky have made two major points: monkeypox spreads primarily through direct physical contact, and at this time, MSM are at highest risk by far. It's important to get both of those messages out there. It's important in broad messaging because it's essential that everyone at risk hears that, and it's important for the safety of that community that we allocate vaccine stockpiles correctly. What Walensky actually did was to state something so indelicately that it can easily do harm against MSM and more broadly the LGBTQ community. The CDC needs to walk a line between delivering accurate information to prevent the spread of disease and saying something that could stigmatize it, and she hosed up. How is this turning into people are outright saying Walensky is engaging in sophistry, lying, and refusing to release correct information? The worst you can say is that the emphasis is in the wrong place (and I agree, because I'm cynical and think it's guaranteed to spread, so you should try to get out ahead of that) but you also need to make drat sure that the most at-risk communities understand they're the most at-risk communities by many orders of magnitude, and I guarantee you do more harm to MSM by not mentioning that. Note that the CDC website handles this differently from how the pressers have gone. The at-risk communities aren't on the front page. https://www.cdc.gov/poxvirus/monkeypox/response/2022/index.html
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Aug 1, 2022 13:49
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The CDC and Walensky have made two major points: monkeypox spreads primarily through direct physical contact, and at this time, MSM are at highest risk by far. It's important to get both of those messages out there. It's important in broad messaging because it's essential that everyone at risk hears that, and it's important for the safety of that community that we allocate vaccine stockpiles correctly. Which should all be done through targeted messages to those communities, not in your broadest messaging on national TV. The broadest messaging should be targeted towards those who have habits that put them at risk, in this case people with multiple sex partners. The website is a better example of what to do. This is such a radical idea that those bastions of the vanguard NPR are also saying it https://www.npr.org/2022/07/31/1114670483/monkeypox-messaging-stigma Edit: original link was wrong. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 14:03
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Ghost Leviathan posted:There is absolutely way too much effort going to defending a government official who made a critical and horrible failure at their primary duty. There's too much effort in discussing her at all considering that future CDC administrators will make exactly the same mistakes if reform is not made to how the CDC operates. Walensky is not the problem. The problem is that the director is Peter-principled into a position where the science communication competency is systemically lacking. If you want to get Walensky fired because you're mad at her, or post about how much she sucks because you're mad at her, that's fine but it has nothing to do with improving communication at the CDC.
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Aug 1, 2022 14:11
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Gumball Gumption posted:Which should all be done through targeted messages to those communities, not in your broadest messaging on national TV. The broadest messaging should be targeted towards those who have habits that put them at risk, in this case people with multiple sex partners. The website is a better example of what to do. Is that the wrong link? That article is talking about something else entirely: it is suggesting that career scientists should be talking directly to the public without anyone massaging the message. At that time, people were frustrated about the CDC not being transparent enough, which is the opposite of this problem. This is actually such a comical thing to read right now, because literally the entire problem we're discussing is that the CDC failed to take politics into account when making a statement, and that article goes on at length about how it's bad that the CDC is taking politics into account.
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Aug 1, 2022 14:16
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Is that the wrong link? That article is talking about something else entirely: it is suggesting that career scientists should be talking directly to the public without anyone massaging the message. At that time, people were frustrated about the CDC not being transparent enough, which is the opposite of this problem. This is actually such a comical thing to read right now, because literally the entire problem we're discussing is that the CDC failed to take politics into account when making a statement, and that article goes on at length about how it's bad that the CDC is taking politics into account. Whoops yeah it actually is. I meant this one, was grabbing something I had read the other day and grabbed the wrong link googling it. You're spot on about that article. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/31/1114670483/monkeypox-messaging-stigma
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Aug 1, 2022 14:24
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Everywhere still has rabies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_rabies Tiny Timbs posted:The US already had an antivaxxer commit suicide by rabies recently. Those aresome beautiful face-eating leopards.
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Aug 1, 2022 14:28
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A big flaming stink posted:who 
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Aug 1, 2022 15:33
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some plague rats posted:Oh drat that's right! We should just deal with the homophobes! Why didn't we think of that?? Well, no offense, but everyone here is acting like half the US is the "and then they EAT THE POO POO!" guy, and there's no loving getting around that with messaging if they are. Everyone's assuming that "these children were linked to people in the MSM community" will be interpreted as "the gays are molesting children" and, if that's the case, your society is deeply, deeply hosed and homophobic. That's an absolutely insane thing to assume in a first-world country in the year of our lord 2022.
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Aug 1, 2022 15:49
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PT6A posted:Well, no offense, but everyone here is acting like half the US is the "and then they EAT THE POO POO!" guy, and there's no loving getting around that with messaging if they are. You may want to sit down.
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Aug 1, 2022 15:57
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PT6A posted:Well, no offense, but everyone here is acting like half the US is the "and then they EAT THE POO POO!" guy, and there's no loving getting around that with messaging if they are. Even putting aside the absolutely absurd level of homophobia present in astonishingly large segments of the US population, I tried to offer an alternative example. My mother is not someone I would call an extreme homophobe; she's quite accepting for a woman her age really but she is just so totally, unabashedly clueless about the concept that it has to has to be spoon fed to her for her to make heads or tails of it. So yeah, the awful people will make hay out of nothing of course but there's a big gap between the "eat the poo poo guy" and say, the average poster ITT.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:03
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PT6A posted:Well, no offense, but everyone here is acting like half the US is the "and then they EAT THE POO POO!" guy, and there's no loving getting around that with messaging if they are.  In all the states in yellow, it was illegal to have gay sex until 2003, less than 20 years ago. You could go to prison. In more than one state you could go to prison for life. Our society is deeply, deeply hosed and homophobic, and our congressional representatives do see this disease as a chance to fearmonger about how gays are dangerous perverts. https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/...disease-1728996 https://twitter.com/RepMTG/status/1...pox-std-1727634 It makes all the sense in the world to say that the CDC has to be extremely sensitive around communicating that the disease is currently endemic among men-who-have-sex-with-men and that it's usually spread by sex. The only problem is when we think the problem to be solved is that Rochelle Walensky is a bad person and not that the CDC is systemically assigning communication tasks to people who are adapted to communicating to different audiences.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:06
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PT6A posted:Well, no offense, but everyone here is acting like half the US is the "and then they EAT THE POO POO!" guy, and there's no loving getting around that with messaging if they are. I don't really even know where to begin with this. Acting like it's a rich vs. poor country thing is grossly wrong. Lots of first world countries have very bigoted beliefs that take root in their culture. Pat Robertson is one of the most famous religious figures in America and is on the same level as Martin Ssempa who is also an American citizen. Also, again, the original post was explicitly using a personal example of someone who was not considered strongly homophobic but still became confused and misinformed due to bad messaging and the latent homophobia in our society. You're missing the original points being made and countering them with some really weird assumptions that say a lot about how you view the world and I think those two things are related. Edit: lmao eat the poo poo guy also claims to have their MA from an American religious school. Just insane for a "first world country" indeed Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 16:08
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Americans, apparently: "it's excellent that we're bordering on a pre-modern 'shithole' society. The real problem is messaging." The post about someone who is quite homophobic but is not seen as homophobic due to absolutely ridiculous levels of homophobia in your society, makes my point.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:13
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PT6A posted:Americans, apparently: "it's excellent that we're bordering on a pre-modern 'shithole' society." Is this really what you think we're saying? Nobody here likes that the country is homophobic, but not liking that reality doesn't mean that the CDC shouldn't account for it in how it communicates important public health news. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 16:16
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Is this what you think we're saying? Yes, you're getting angry at a scientist for saying the truth because American society has spent decades being virulently homophobic and not dealing with it. It makes no sense to people who don't live in that society.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:20
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They're still not saying the truth either. Describing those at risk as people with multiple sex partners is more accurate.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:21
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PT6A posted:Yes, you're getting angry at a scientist for saying the truth because American society has spent decades being virulently homophobic and not dealing with it. It makes no sense to people who don't live in that society. That's not what people are talking about actually.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:23
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You keep acting like Americans are idiots for not understanding the science but also you keep getting the science wrong.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:24
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Gumball Gumption posted:They're still not saying the truth either. Describing those at risk as people with multiple sex partners is more accurate. What was said that is untrue?
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Aug 1, 2022 16:26
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Living in an American vassal instead of America makes you smarter and holier too. That's just the facts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 1, 2022 16:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:What was said that is untrue? That it is an STI
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Aug 1, 2022 16:28
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PT6A posted:Yes, you're getting angry at a scientist for saying the truth because American society has spent decades being virulently homophobic and not dealing with it. Centuries, obviously. The "decades" thing is very telling, because obviously nobody believes that America was actually less homophobic 200 years ago. What you've said only makes sense if you're like "well, my country was virulently homophobic until several decades ago, so that's normal, but what's crazy is that the US kept being homophobic for decades after that." What Walensky said was true but predictably misinterpreted in a way that made fighting the disease harder and contributed to panic around gays molesting kids. Communicating information in a way that builds national solidarity against the disease while still alerting at-risk communities is a difficult task for which some have the background and others don't. PT6A posted:It makes no sense to people who don't live in that society. In my experience intelligent adults understand that you have to be careful communicating in public health guidance to prevent stigmatized groups from being further stigmatized or blamed for the disease. We are not dealing with a different species than the one that blamed the Black Death on Jews poisoning wells. Go ahead and brag about how your country doesn't have any problems like that, if true that's a genuine accomplishment, but it's not impressive that you don't understand how public health messaging has to adjust around local concerns like prejudice, including in places where gay men are stigmatized (the vast majority of the world). Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 16:32
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Centuries, obviously. No, it's decades since most of the rest of the world had a parting with America on this subject, and that's relevant. The rest of the developed world largely decided to consign the interference of religion in public affairs to the bin, where it belongs; it's only America where it continued unabated and in fact has strengthened since the middle of the 20th century.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:55
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There is no nation in the world that is not deeply homophobic
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Aug 1, 2022 16:55
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PT6A posted:No, it's decades since most of the rest of the world had a parting with America on this subject, and that's relevant. The rest of the developed world largely decided to consign the interference of religion in public affairs to the bin, where it belongs; it's only America where it continued unabated and in fact has strengthened since the middle of the 20th century. Pt6a you are more concerned with making the people you hate suffer than protecting the lives of the vulnerable and hell, if that ain't as American as apple pie! 
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Aug 1, 2022 17:01
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PT6A posted:No, it's decades since most of the rest of the world had a parting with America on this subject, and that's relevant. The rest of the developed world largely decided to consign the interference of religion in public affairs to the bin, where it belongs; it's only America where it continued unabated and in fact has strengthened since the middle of the 20th century. The Catholic Church will be shocked to hear this considering how much influence they have in the developed world. Also still really weird you keep framing this like it's a rich vs. poor thing since you feel the need to specify developed countries.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:02
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PT6A posted:No, it's decades since most of the rest of the world had a parting with America on this subject, and that's relevant. The rest of the developed world largely decided to consign the interference of religion in public affairs to the bin, where it belongs; it's only America where it continued unabated and in fact has strengthened since the middle of the 20th century. So it is "well, my country was virulently homophobic until several decades ago, so that's normal, but what's crazy is that the US kept being homophobic for decades after that." The rest of what you have to say is just preaching to the choir. We know our country should be less homophobic, we're just interested in how that pertains to public health messaging and by your own admission you can't imagine what the two have to do with each other.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:07
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The office needs a sophist, that is to say someone who can start from the behavior the CDC wants to induce or avert and then calculate the best rhetoric to achieve that effect without outright lying. And this was supposed to be her expertise (in that it’s what’s she researched how to do to get vaccine acceptance) but she’s terrible at it!
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Aug 1, 2022 17:12
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To be clear, the issue is the homophobes, not the messaging, but we're talking about a discrete event in which a single afternoon rewriting the speech can have a tangible affect on real people where as 'dealing' with our homophobia is not really in the scope of a 45 minute job for a speech writer at the CDC.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Our society is deeply, deeply hosed and homophobic, and our congressional representatives do see this disease as a chance to fearmonger about how gays are dangerous perverts.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:24
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Gumball Gumption posted:They're still not saying the truth either. Describing those at risk as people with multiple sex partners is more accurate. That's not more accurate than "men who have sex with men." That encompasses a huge population that is not presently at high risk (but may be in the future) and leaves out a population that presently is at high risk (men who aren't particularly selective about their partner's sexual habits). Mendrian posted:To be clear, the issue is the homophobes, not the messaging, but we're talking about a discrete event in which a single afternoon rewriting the speech can have a tangible affect on real people where as 'dealing' with our homophobia is not really in the scope of a 45 minute job for a speech writer at the CDC. It wasn't a speech. Nobody wrote it. It was an off-the-cuff statement during an interview.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:26
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That's not more accurate than "men who have sex with men." That encompasses a huge population that is not presently at high risk (but may be in the future) and leaves out a population that presently is at high risk (men who aren't particularly selective about their partner's sexual habits). https://twitter.com/EnemyInAState/status/1553536762319966208?t=g7yHSSE0NJpdxztyfP1iEA&s=19 Calling it a gay disease is already having extremely obvious negative consequences Calling it primarily spread through sexual contact was criminally negligent to begin with
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Aug 1, 2022 17:32
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