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In more news of why not to always trust Wikipedia: https://twitter.com/rachel_cheung1/status/1547140139519905793?s=21&t=Jzm-H_Sm1h2tY99JWM4vRw I’m honestly kind of impressed. https://twitter.com/rachel_cheung1/status/1547147865197203456?s=21&t=Jzm-H_Sm1h2tY99JWM4vRw This comment kind of chills me though. Because, yeah. What exactly is the answer to that if we have a billion voices spreading nationalistically warped takes on history through our now-democratized and extremely easy to manipulate network of sources for knowledge. I’ve been seeing it more and more in anything Korean-history related — even in the English speaking internet there are so many more Chinese voices than Korean that the former can just drown out most edit wars, or create a volume of biased YouTube videos or Twitter takes and so on and so on. It’s a lovely way to be getting history knowledge but it’s how most people do these days. There’s an irony that the western historiographical, I suppose hegemony, that existed for a century or more was doing not dissimilar things via different mediums, but at least in that case there was a goal of impartiality, and one that over the decades actually got more and more realized. I guess this is just one more example of the internet messing things up but I do worry about where it’ll take us in a decade or two.
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Aug 1, 2022 12:45
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Is it marxist?
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Aug 1, 2022 12:46
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ScienceSeagull posted:. Whoa, I forgot it was that horny 
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Aug 1, 2022 13:32
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Koramei posted:In more news of why not to always trust Wikipedia: bad faith actors have been a massive issue on the mandarin-speaking internet for a good decade by now and they're insanely hard to dislodge; there's some worse-than-qanon insanity going on over on the other side of the language barrier saying poo poo like "the united states is going to collapse under the weight of a bloated welfare state that bestows luxurious lifestyles onto black people" or "the united states government collaborates with black lives matter to target and murder chinese people" and if you contradict them they won't be shy about calling you a race traitor n****r-lover
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Aug 1, 2022 13:50
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What the Christ guys . Good lord . (Not doubting it happened it just sounds insane ) Wikipedia is not a great source on any “political” topic afaict . Which is probably how it should be as human experience is hard to generalize from a detached “no viewpoint” perspective or whatever they claim to try to do We’d be a lot better of if people dropped the veneer of “impartiality ” and we just had everyone state their partiality and have lots of partial media . euphronius fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 13:59
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:bad faith actors have been a massive issue on the mandarin-speaking internet for a good decade by now and they're insanely hard to dislodge; there's some worse-than-qanon insanity going on over on the other side of the language barrier This got me thinking: isn't Christianity the original Q-anon?
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Aug 1, 2022 14:02
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euphronius posted:We’d be a lot better of if people dropped the veneer of “impartiality ” and we just had everyone state their partiality and have lots of partial media . Isn't this how you get British press? Guildencrantz posted:Same! That book makes some incredibly far-reaching claims that I'm not equipped to judge, but while I'm sure that some of them won't stand up to scholarly criticism, the conceptual framework and the way it makes you question assumptions is fantastic. Absolutely blew my thinking about social history wide open. I probably need to re-read it because the type of background I have means that I got total tunnel vision for the ethnography. I was pretty annoyed at how often they went into speculation and then just kind of accepted their prior speculation as firm ground. But man, every time I learn about big neolithic sites I go hog wild (first time I learned about LBK I couldn't shut up for months). The stuff about the Ukrainian megasites and Teotihuacan was incredible. After I get through a few more books on my list I'll probably go nuts on their bibliography.
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Aug 1, 2022 14:42
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Tulip posted:Isn't this how you get British press? Yeah the trouble with this is you end up with 90% of the media explicitly partial to the right and the rest centrist at best (and, it turns out, pretty opposed to the actual left and also things like trans rights).
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Aug 1, 2022 14:48
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Fish of hemp posted:This got me thinking: isn't Christianity the original Q-anon?
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Aug 1, 2022 15:03
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feedmegin posted:Yeah the trouble with this is you end up with 90% of the media explicitly partial to the right and the rest centrist at best (and, it turns out, pretty opposed to the actual left and also things like trans rights). That’s already the case tho
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Aug 1, 2022 15:05
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euphronius posted:What the Christ guys . Good lord . piL fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 15:11
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piL posted:There were pages of political interest in there probably, but I'm not sure 14th century history if nonexistant regions of Russia are political topics. I also can't imagine what a large scale encyclopedic wiki would look like without some effort towards impartiality at some level. Zhemao also wrote (or at least contributed to) an article about the deportation of Chinese people in the Soviet Union, which definitely sounds political. And something about 17th-century Tartar uprisings in Russia, which is a bit larger-scale than the silver mine material.
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Aug 1, 2022 15:25
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ScienceSeagull posted:Zhemao also wrote (or at least contributed to) an article about the deportation of Chinese people in the Soviet Union, which definitely sounds political. And something about 17th-century Tartar uprisings in Russia, which is a bit larger-scale than the silver mine material. On review, I think I uncharitably read euphronius's post as implying it was all political misinformation which they clearly did not imply that. Sorry for tilting at a windmill there.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:04
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piL posted:
impartiality as used in Wikipedia is impossible for most topics. Looking at Wikipedias own policies you can see the glaring issues with this policy for example. quote:Due and undue weight This is related to historical scholarship so I don't think its off topic.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:15
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I mean this is crazy talk  It’s obviously a good painting dear lord
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Aug 1, 2022 16:25
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euphronius posted:I mean this is crazy talk I'm pretty sure the average Wikipedia editor's realm of good art begins and ends with Star Trek.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:30
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steinrokkan posted:I'm pretty sure the average Wikipedia editor's realm of good art begins and ends with Star Trek. Wait, mods are wikipedia editors?
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Aug 1, 2022 16:37
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euphronius posted:I mean this is crazy talk Kinda boring imo
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Aug 1, 2022 16:48
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euphronius posted:impartiality as used in Wikipedia is impossible for most topics. I was thinking more specifically about the plausibility of citing biases within living a living document of international origin with multiple contributors. Do you state then inline for each line? quote:The war of 1812 began in June 1812 [a] [b] [c] [d] If you do it anywhere else, it becomes incumbent to review the user pages per contributer, which probably doesn't make biases too much more accessible. I agree that, in article format, calling out relevant portions of your biases is a behavior that should be included, though I can see some potentially troublesome issues there.
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Aug 1, 2022 16:48
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Stairmaster posted:Kinda boring imo Plus I've seen starry nights, and they don't look much like that. Inaccurate title.
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Aug 1, 2022 17:20
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Wikipedia history is frequently wretched. Circular citation within a single editor's writing is common, and the way edits are defended favours "conservatism" in the sense that longstanding pages and passages are difficult to remove even when actual historical scholarship completely invalidates it. Examples that spring to mind is the Battle of Karánsebes, or any of the Ancient Greek history pages. These pages are horrible mish-mashes of horseshit (sourced from contemporary sources, or Plutarch), combined with contradictory or invalidating statements, with no discussion spared to reconciling the two. You have to go into the talk pages to see something resembling academic research, and then you have to read nerd flamewars between the lines to understand what the hell if going on.
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Aug 1, 2022 20:35
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I once attended an event wikimedia put on where I met some full-time editors. It was a mix of weird obsessive college guys and retired librarians. It all tracked.
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Aug 1, 2022 22:08
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The story of the lady who made it her mission to correct nazi apologism on Wikipedia was cool. Tho out of the range of this thread.
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Aug 1, 2022 22:13
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Wikipedia history is frequently wretched. Circular citation within a single editor's writing is common, and the way edits are defended favours "conservatism" in the sense that longstanding pages and passages are difficult to remove even when actual historical scholarship completely invalidates it. Yeah, ancient history is probably one of the fields where Wikipedia-style amateur collaborative writing is the hardest. Part of the problem is that a lot of easily accessible and somewhat authoritative-looking sources (not just people like Plutarch, but, e.g., early 20th century secondary sources) are going to be totally wrong, at least according to the current academic consensus, and there isn't usually an obvious super-authoritative source to point to to correct them.
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Aug 2, 2022 01:33
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Examples that spring to mind is the Battle of Karánsebes, Actually this specific article is one of the better examples of Wikipedia history writing because people went "hey, what the hell" and then went and found actual sources for what happened and put them in the article. It's a much better description of the battle than in a lot of printed works (which tend to use the legend of the Austrians blowing up thousands of their own men because they were dummy dumbs).
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Aug 2, 2022 02:03
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TipTow posted:
Christianity figured the only way to reason apocalyptically, the you make it imminent and also push it all the way back to the end of existence. Here’s another way to explain it. Apocalyptic reasoning is at its core is: poo poo is hosed. hosed poo poo will end. Those statements are always true. But the problem is when. If there is a date in the future, you reach it, it doesn’t happen, it pushes back, repeat. Imminence causes action. The end of existence gives it inescapable consequence,a telos, to the end and in the now.
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Aug 2, 2022 04:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Christianity figured the only way to reason apocalyptically, the you make it imminent and also push it all the way back to the end of existence. That's what spiked cool aide is for.
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Aug 2, 2022 04:38
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:bad faith actors have been a massive issue on the mandarin-speaking internet for a good decade by now and they're insanely hard to dislodge; there's some worse-than-qanon insanity going on over on the other side of the language barrier saying poo poo like "the united states is going to collapse under the weight of a bloated welfare state that bestows luxurious lifestyles onto black people" or "the united states government collaborates with black lives matter to target and murder chinese people" and if you contradict them they won't be shy about calling you a race traitor n****r-lover
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Aug 2, 2022 04:54
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Crab Dad posted:That's what spiked cool aide is for. Spiked cool-aid folks had a date. As did the heavens gate folks. It’s harmful think you know the day.
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Aug 2, 2022 06:13
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Nessus posted:This baffles me. Would the average Chinese person have even had much chance to encounter Africans? Isn't the Chinese government trying to butter that area up? Or is this in fact all just free strain insanity which is bubbling up from youtube recommendations infesting the brains of bilingual people with the finest corn-fried memetic complexes of the early 20th century? your average 19th century european wouldn't have seen an african person outside of perhaps a human zoo at the world's fair, but that didn't stop them from holding those opinions very strongly. just being told poo poo a lot will reinforce it, and hating someone far away is very easy to start on
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Aug 2, 2022 06:52
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Mister Olympus posted:your average 19th century european wouldn't have seen an african person outside of perhaps a human zoo at the world's fair, but that didn't stop them from holding those opinions very strongly. just being told poo poo a lot will reinforce it, and hating someone far away is very easy to start on And American racism is exported very enthusiastically. Like, the whole 'The US is going to collapse because of giving too much welfare to black people' is something a lot of Americans earnestly believe, the Welfare Queen myth is bipartisan.
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Aug 2, 2022 10:04
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Shibawanko posted:if it was just an everyday utility object it doesn't really make sense that some of them were made of gold and were decorated. if i had to venture a guess id say they were used to display something Clearly they were dual-purpose: displaying rings and measuring ring sizes
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Aug 2, 2022 10:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And American racism is exported very enthusiastically. Like, the whole 'The US is going to collapse because of giving too much welfare to black people' is something a lot of Americans earnestly believe, the Welfare Queen myth is bipartisan. I'm not sure this is entirely fair. My understanding as a POC is a lot of Chinese racism against Africans is mostly home grown. It's definitely something I've been hearing about for awhile.
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Aug 2, 2022 11:30
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Telsa Cola posted:I'm not sure this is entirely fair. My understanding as a POC is a lot of Chinese racism against Africans is mostly home grown. It's definitely something I've been hearing about for awhile. I wouldn't be surprised, but it's probably impossible to separate the two. Especially with how frankly weird and unreliable Western narratives about China get.
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Aug 2, 2022 11:39
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Spiked cool-aid folks had a date. As did the heavens gate folks. Jehovas witnesses used to have a date set too- first on 1914 (Oh yes, world war starts; this is it boys) then 1916… then 1917… then 1925.. then 1975.. after 1.1 1976 Its been ”apocalypse TBA”
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Aug 2, 2022 12:22
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Telsa Cola posted:I'm not sure this is entirely fair. My understanding as a POC is a lot of Chinese racism against Africans is mostly home grown. It's definitely something I've been hearing about for awhile. That's maybe true for a lot of it, but the weird thing to me is that a lot of the language of it now is definitely not. Stereotypes and racist arguments that are explicitly American are pretty much the entirety of the Chinese racist discourse now but, obviously, translated into Chinese.
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Aug 2, 2022 12:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I wouldn't be surprised, but it's probably impossible to separate the two. Especially with how frankly weird and unreliable Western narratives about China get. This may shock you, but Americans didn't invent racism
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Aug 2, 2022 12:37
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to try and stay on topic, china has a millennia-long, storied mythology of ethnic and cultural exceptionalism (if not outright supremacy); an equally long and storied history of empire and expansionism; a very long history of treating its southern neighbors as vassal states and the brown-skinned residents thereof as untermenschen if any of that rings any bells then all of sudden it becomes much less surprising that there's a lot of chinese both here and in china who feel an affinity for white supremacy, or how... BrainDance posted:That's maybe true for a lot of it, but the weird thing to me is that a lot of the language of it now is definitely not. Stereotypes and racist arguments that are explicitly American are pretty much the entirety of the Chinese racist discourse now but, obviously, translated into Chinese. while it's true that a lot of this is because the racism of a lot of first-generation chinese-americans has crossed the language barrier and metastasized like a cancer in the PRC, it's also true that far too many of my co-ethnics readily believe self-evidently insane narratives about how the US government collaborates with black lives matter activists to target and kill chinese people or how the UC system is going to ban chinese people and give all the admissions slots to  illiterate unqualified black and brown kids from richmond or little saigon and the like, and are hostile to hearing narratives to the contrary and call those of us who call them on it "race traitors" or "n***er-lovers" (or at best, delusional or naive).like in early 2017 my great-aunt in shanghai, who has never once set foot in north america, hit up my mom on wechat to say "isn't it great that daddy trump got elected?? he's going to ban the n***ers from harvard and berkeley and keep dangerous terrorist muslims out!" and couldn't understand why my mom was so upset with her; to my great-aunt, this was all just common sense. that's what we're dealing with here. Jerry Manderbilt fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 2, 2022 |
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Aug 2, 2022 13:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Christianity figured the only way to reason apocalyptically, the you make it imminent and also push it all the way back to the end of existence. Yeah, Matthew 24:36 does a lot of work in keeping the imminency of the coming Kingdom of God *just* at arm's length forever.
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Aug 2, 2022 13:57
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Valtonen posted:Jehovas witnesses used to have a date set too- first on 1914 (Oh yes, world war starts; this is it boys) then 1916… then 1917… then 1925.. then 1975.. after 1.1 1976 Its been ”apocalypse TBA” They were right each time
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