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Josef bugman posted:I still had folks yell at me for "sucking the cock of the establishment" for saying the moon landing happened. New thread title please. Answers Me posted:Does anyone have a good primer (and critique) on the so-called ‘wage-price spiral’ that Tories love to cite when people suggest that wages need to rise with inflation? Economic theory isn’t exactly my strong point and it’s making my head spin trying to understand it. If wages stay stagnant during inflation then the spending power of those wages is going down, because each individual pound is literally worth less than it was before. So if wages keep up with inflation then your salary has the same purchasing power it did before. By extension, it is literally impossible for wages to cause a wage price spiral just by keeping up with inflation, because the spending power of those wages is static, it has to be another factor causing a spike in inflation. And by extension to that, if wages can't keep up with inflation then they are saying that everyone has to get poorer and poorer forever without end, until no-one is making any money at all beyond a fraction of a percent of the value of current wages. And even without the march of technology and knowledge constantly increasing our productivity, that obviously cannot be true, like it is ballistically stupid just on the face of things, it would result in us all sitting in the streets without even a rag to cover us, surrounded by technology and food and factories churning out all kinds of products into giant piles on the streets and we'd just be throwing up our hands saying "guess we just can't afford any of this stuff!".
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Aug 4, 2022 14:42
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Josef bugman posted:I look similar and I've still had folks yell at me for "sucking the cock of the establishment" for saying the moon landing happened. but the moon clearly hasn't landed, I can see it in the sky at night
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Aug 4, 2022 14:51
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I think a thread on 'how to counter examples / talking points' would be useful. I do have acquaintances who are firmly set in their ways but there are others such as this person below who I think are open to fresh evidence. Eg Labour have lost one of my acquaintances votes because: (a) they are going to remove charitable status from private schools and she has worked hard to afford it for her kids (she has to be fair and like many of us works double the hours she's paid for) and if all those parents left the private sector and entered state schools there would be 55 kids per class. Well that's a govt choice I say and wouldn't it be better if all schools were good schools because many of those parents would be agitating for improvements in the state schools their darling Princes and Princesses went to? (b) people just don't want to work and that's why there are so many vacancies and this is Labour's fault because... even though I pointed out the tories have been in power for 12 years and so whatever the current position re tax, national insurance, benefits etc, it is 100% entirely at the tory door. "Why do you think that?" says I. "Everything I've read and my friend works in the food bank and the travellers come in and strip the shelves and there's nothing we can do about it." she counters. (c) if you live somewhere where there are no decent jobs at a decent pay and public transport is shite you should either (i) learn to drive and buy a car - regardless of the fact that without a decent job you can't actually afford driving lessons / buy a car / run a car / fail your test numerous times like me, have medical condition eg eyes or epilepsy like some people in my family so you are not allowed to drive (ii) move somewhere where the jobs are despite you almost always need an employer's reference and proof of pay and £2-3k up front to move anywhere which are all catch-22 situations (d) after she had lived abroad for a few years and come back she was not entitled to any maternity pay despite having paid in however much tax, NI before she went abroad but these boat people step off the boat and get 55" plasma screen tvs. She's an avid Graun reader, doesn't believe in 'left' and 'right' and why can't we all be centrist and just get along. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 14:52
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SixFigureSandwich posted:but the moon clearly hasn't landed, I can see it in the sky at night You may have missed it but Alan Sugar posted a great video showing it taking off again
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Aug 4, 2022 14:54
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lol if you still believe in the moon. it was put there for the (((lunisolar calendar))) wake up  Jaeluni Asjil posted:She's an avid Graun reader, doesn't believe in 'left' and 'right' and why can't we all be centrist and just get along. 
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Aug 4, 2022 14:56
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I feel like, personally, someone who says all that crap is explicitly not open to new evidence because they just like the sound of the things they say and are not making decisions based on observable reality.
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Aug 4, 2022 14:57
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Other point on inflation: the rich are enjoying record profits, while the effects of not redistributing those profits to the wider economy means that the actual value of our economy is suffering - less overall spending, businesses closing, etc. So technically inflation is being caused by wages rising too fast... It's just the wages of the rich massively outstripping the growth of the wider economy, which is itself a direct consequence of their hoarding. The only way to resolve it is to take that money away from them and redistribute it. Austerity literally led to the current inflation crisis and more austerity cannot do anything except make it worse.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:02
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in a nutshell the openly stated economic policy of our odds on next PM is that you've never had it so good and as a result of living so high on the hog all our poor businesses are really suffering and we're just going to have to all make some sacrifices in the coming years to help them back on their feet
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Aug 4, 2022 15:10
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Rustybear posted:lol wherein they briefly consider that maybe economics might have a part to play but swiftly move on to people on the internet are being mean in my mentions and that's not ok! Yeah, I mean just look at everything. No wonder people are angry - they should be furious. I just wish they didn't take it out on regular people.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:10
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OwlFancier posted:But I think the error is that they imagine that "pro business" is somehow an antonym to that. Possibly because they think "business" is domestic, smaller scale, "good" and probably also full of white british people doing upstanding business things in business suits and having business relationships, rather than a godforsaken agglomeration of systems designed to appoint fundamentally disposable people to whatever role is necessary to make number go up that is the modern multinational megacorp. In my experience this is very common and you are exactly right - a lot of people who say/hear "pro-business" take it to mean starting a business, entrepreneurialism, owning/running an SME and so on, as opposed to 'corporations' or 'capital'. Big, globalised, multinational business is the bad sort of business (a bit the libertarians who say that Crony Capitalism is the Bad Capitalism). Of course this doesn't seem to equate to any realisation that when a Tory minister stands up and delivers a speech about being "pro business" they don't mean the family business on an industrial estate in Northampton. Although one small business owner of my acquaintance (who, unusually among small business owners, is not a 100% psychopath) did at least have the integrity to say that Labour's 2019 manifesto was one of the best set of proposals to specifically encourage and small businesses, help them thrive and protect them from overbearing larger corporations that he'd ever seen in a GE manifesto. Unfortunately there was "too much other stuff that was just nuts", apparently. Reveilled posted:I've always found the suggestion we should "Run the country like a business" amusing because a country actually run like a business would be private capital's worst nightmare. Put up Yep - if "UK plc" actually meaningfully existed, we'd have borrowed untold £billions in the 2010s at low (or even slightly negative) interest rates and poured that into infrastructure and service provision to make our 'business' more efficient and productive and to maintain the spending power of our 'customer base'. Like that example on Panorama a few years ago where some bow-tie wearing 'run the country like a business' talking head had no real answer to someone from the LSE saying that if we did run the country like a business then we'd stop spunking a fortune into the pockets of Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Other point on inflation: the rich are enjoying record profits, while the effects of not redistributing those profits to the wider economy means that the actual value of our economy is suffering - less overall spending, businesses closing, etc. The Doctor talks sense - these are all good points.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:22
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Josef bugman posted:I look similar and I've still had folks yell at me for "sucking the cock of the establishment" for saying the moon landing happened. Met up a with a woman we went to school with last weekend for the first time in about ten years, and had a lengthy argument where she claimed the moon landings were faked "because there's too much lead on the moon" Like I've been in some conspiracies but that I just couldn't deal with Too much lead
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Aug 4, 2022 15:30
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:So technically inflation is being caused by wages rising too fast... It's just the wages of the rich massively outstripping the growth of the wider economy, which is itself a direct consequence of their hoarding. can you unpack this? corporates are all hoarding cash and the billionaire class just offshore everything and never spend their wealth in the real economy anyway. also record inequality has been baked in for like 10+ years, why the sudden tipping point now? makes more sense to me that inflation is being driven by supply chain/energy cost increases from postcovid + ukraine rather than any particular demand pull increase. just a simple read tho
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Aug 4, 2022 15:32
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EvilHawk posted:Met up a with a woman we went to school with last weekend for the first time in about ten years, and had a lengthy argument where she claimed the moon landings were faked "because there's too much lead on the moon"
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Aug 4, 2022 15:34
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EvilHawk posted:Met up a with a woman we went to school with last weekend for the first time in about ten years, and had a lengthy argument where she claimed the moon landings were faked "because there's too much lead on the moon" What problem was the lead supposed to cause?
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Aug 4, 2022 15:36
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Ruins the catalytic converter in the lunar lander module.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:36
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Sounds like she's tragically misunderstood a tragic misunderstanding of the Van Halen Belt.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:37
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Neil Armstrong was a university professor and it's too hot for teachers?
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Aug 4, 2022 15:39
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All the lead from the moon was used in Britain's water pipes.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:42
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Lead stopped being used quite quickly but Galena is still quite useful for a bunch of stuff. Source, I work in a lead mine museum! As an aside, how on earth are people supposed to become teachers when you are the primary earner for the household?
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Aug 4, 2022 15:47
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Marxist revolution when? We are slow walking into complete disaster. 2023 is going to be a volatile year if people have nothing left to lose.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:47
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OwlFancier posted:What problem was the lead supposed to cause? Makes moon-boomers unacceptably aggressive towards moon-customer service people.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:48
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I'm just saying that yeah lead isn't good for humans but neither is being in in a vacuum and that's what they had the space suits for. Also moon dust is pretty carcinogenic also but again, space suit.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:49
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The Soviets got there first and got their pencil lead everywhere.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:50
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OwlFancier posted:I'm just saying that yeah lead isn't good for humans but neither is being in in a vacuum and that's what they had the space suits for. Yeah, I'm pretty sure direct radiation from the sun/space in general will kill you pretty quick vs the slow death handling lots of lead will cause.
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Aug 4, 2022 15:51
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I think it is a mainly a manifestation of deep frustration and the poor level of staffing of and ability (permission) to resolve problems of customer-facing roles. You only have to read the Fail's money pages to see how often people are phoning, emailing, writing to companies over a period of sometimes months with quite distressing situations esp relating to bereavements - to try and get a problem resolved, yet they are ignored or fobbed off etc, only for the Fail's money people to make one call and the problem is resolved + a bunch of flowers or something + 'we regret our service didn't meet the required standard blah blah staff training blah blah'. When I worked for an insurer they had a separate department with staff allowed to issue greater levels of compensation specifically for "media-involved complaints"
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Aug 4, 2022 15:51
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Microplastics posted:Well don't tease us, tell us where it is Now THIS is customer service! Josef bugman posted:As an aside, how on earth are people supposed to become teachers when you are the primary earner for the household? The same as any other job? There are definitely lower paying jobs, but I will grant you that the hours (especially when you start out!) can get pretty nuts. What specifically is stopping you?
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Aug 4, 2022 15:56
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OwlFancier posted:Also moon dust is pretty carcinogenic 
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Aug 4, 2022 16:02
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Miftan posted:The same as any other job? There are definitely lower paying jobs, but I will grant you that the hours (especially when you start out!) can get pretty nuts. What specifically is stopping you? No as in how are you supposed to do a PGCE. It seems like a nightmare that you have to work full time in a school and only get paid about 9000 per year maintenance grant.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:04
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Rustybear posted:can you unpack this? corporates are all hoarding cash and the billionaire class just offshore everything and never spend their wealth in the real economy anyway. also record inequality has been baked in for like 10+ years, why the sudden tipping point now? The tipping point was a load of new money being injected into the economy at the top without a corresponding increase in output (massive amounts paid to businesses to keep them afloat during COVID while productivity tanked, then supply chain issues being a ball and chain around the ankle of future productivity) Think of productive output as a pie, and each pound as the right to a slice of that pie. If the pie stays the same size or shrinks but a load of new pounds get made, each pound gets you a smaller slice of the pie. If you inject cash into the bottom of the economy, eg just give people money, starting with the poorest, you get multiple chances to pull that money back out of the economy while still actually using it to make the pie bigger. If the government give me money then I spend it on food, the supermarket pay taxes on the profit, all the workers involved in making that food available for me to buy pay taxes on their income, but importantly the money is still moving which is what an economy is. If you inject money into the bottom of the economy while pulling it out of the top (redistribution) you can keep the pie the same size and the number of pounds the same, but that's not infinite unbounded growth so gently caress you for wanting it
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Aug 4, 2022 16:05
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BalloonFish posted:Yep - if "UK plc" actually meaningfully existed, we'd have borrowed untold £billions in the 2010s at low (or even slightly negative) interest rates and poured that into infrastructure and service provision to make our 'business' more efficient and productive and to maintain the spending power of our 'customer base'. Like that example on Panorama a few years ago where some bow-tie wearing 'run the country like a business' talking head had no real answer to someone from the LSE saying that if we did run the country like a business then we'd stop spunking a fortune into the pockets of I think they mean like a business that a private equity firm has bought up on the cheap and is cutting operating costs, asset stripping and stacking with debt before piecing it out and offloading.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:09
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I feel a strange familiarity at the notion of bunging the people at the top a pile of money because they hosed up. Can't think why.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:11
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OwlFancier posted:What problem was the lead supposed to cause? I have no idea, I got stuck in a loop where I kept saying "but you can literally point a laser at the moon and it reflects back" and she kept saying "can you prove it" and I would say "yes" and she would ask if I was calling her stupid Which uh Yes I was
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Aug 4, 2022 16:20
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Jordon Peterson looking healthy!
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Aug 4, 2022 16:24
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I mean I guess you personally can't unless you have a giant laser cannon you haven't told us about.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:27
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Archbish of Canterbury sticking his oar in. The CofE has been much more welcoming in the last couple of decades. Now he turns it back.quote:The lives of LGBTQ+ people are at stake, the broadcaster and author Sandi Toksvig has said, after the archbishop of Canterbury affirmed the validity of a 1998 resolution that gay sex is a sin. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/04/sandi-toksvig-lives-at-stake-anti-gay-anglican-church-declaration-justin-welby
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Aug 4, 2022 16:28
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I guess you personally can't unless you have a giant laser cannon you haven't told us about.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:29
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Tarnop posted:The tipping point was a load of new money being injected into the economy at the top without a corresponding increase in output (massive amounts paid to businesses to keep them afloat during COVID while productivity tanked, then supply chain issues being a ball and chain around the ankle of future productivity) ok but for that to be true for the 'why now' I'd expect to see: a. a spike on the M3 chart and I don't, like it's going bigly up during covid but not at a rate that is massively different from e.g. 2016-2018 b. a trough on the productivity chart and i don't, there's a wild swing in both directions around the market crash in early 2020 but otherwise it's pretty much fit to same long term trendline
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Aug 4, 2022 16:30
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I find it very hard to really be bothered about what the church says tbh. Hard to see the value even in a "welcoming" church when they've had to be dragged kicking and screaming to that point out of terror of their growing irrelevance. Sooner the whole thing is dead and in the ground the better IMO. It's always going to be a lovely conservative institution because that's the nature of the thing it's selling.
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Aug 4, 2022 16:32
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, I think a lot of people (correctly) have come to associate the word "globalization" as meaning the force that causes jobs to be shut down in places like the UK and US and reopened in places where labour is cheaper. Because a lot of corporations have done that because it's cheaper for them and has become cheaper as a consequence of increasing trade interconnection and telecommunications making it far less necessary to have things be geographically centralized in order to work properly. I mean, you can say that. But when the person discussing the "globalist agenda" is also describing a government that wants to burn down the Northern Ireland Protocol as remainers, then they mean "Jews".
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Aug 4, 2022 16:32
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Jedit posted:I mean, you can say that. But when the person discussing the "globalist agenda" is also describing a government that wants to burn down the Northern Ireland Protocol as remainers, then they mean "Jews". Or alternatively they think the EU is a force for actual capitalist globalization, which it is in many respects. A major plank of the lexit platform was the EU's anti-protectionist element with things like its state aid rules. It is clearly stupid to say that the government is in any way "remainer" but if you dislike the EU for being an organization that limits what the UK can do to enrich itself at everyone else's expense, and you imagine that that is what would make your life better and that "leaver" politicians want to do that as they have claimed, it makes perfect sense. I think it makes plenty enough sense from just a nationalist perspective that actually believes half the poo poo that the leave side claimed that brexit would do for the UK, that you don't have to really jump to "they mean jewish conspiracy". Stupid leave voter who cannot accept they've been had, is a perfectly consistent explanation. Brexit cannot fail, it can only be failed by secret remainers sabotaging the very real leave saviors who are out there, desperate to bring all the business back to the UK. Could easily progress to antisemitism obviously if you start feeling the need for an explanation for why everyone you actually see is apparently a secret remainer, but I think it can be largely stable purely out of a lack of willingness to concede that you've been duped. Similar perhaps to the people who believe that trump wanted to do all the good things but couldn't because of reasons. Sure some of them will believe that's because of a jewish conspiracy, but I think a lot of them are just very emotionally invested in it being true because it validates their lovely political desires by making them actually be good it's just that real conservatism has never been tried etc etc. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 16:38
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