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I have a reflexive dislike of these winding pathways where they prove that, step by step, a good thing is actually the same thing as a bad/illegal/immoral thing. I think the worst that I heard was that pharmaceutical companies actually make quite slim returns, because most of their profits go to their shareholders, and being reliable investments the biggest shareholders are pension pots and retirement funds, so if you complain about price gouging medicines, that's morally the same as stealing from your dear old nan. You wouldn't do that would you? Steal from her purse? 
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Aug 5, 2022 08:49
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quote:The supermarket is forced to buy potatoes at these inflated prices and sell them to you with as small a profit margin as possible. You end up paying a fiver a spud, but only a few pence goes to the supermarket and the rest goes to the supplier, who makes huge profits This argument would potentially be reasonable if the energy companies weren't also making billions in profit - far more than when energy was cheaper to buy.
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Aug 5, 2022 08:53
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Miftan posted:This argument would potentially be reasonable if the energy companies weren't also making billions in profit - far more than when energy was cheaper to buy. It depends if the energy supplier is also a producer like British Gas. The energy company I work for is still posting pretty much the same percentage of profits it was before this whole shitstorm.
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Aug 5, 2022 08:55
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Aphex- posted:It depends if the energy supplier is also a producer like British Gas. The energy company I work for is still posting pretty much the same percentage of profits it was before this whole shitstorm. That's fair, but also I have no sympathy for leeching middle men who provide no value whatsoever whether it's "energy companies" who do nothing but play with spreadsheets or landlords.
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Aug 5, 2022 08:57
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Miftan posted:This argument would potentially be reasonable if the energy companies weren't also making billions in profit - far more than when energy was cheaper to buy. Well the small ones aren't. They are going bust, and then being gobbled up by the big ones. The wonders of free market, don't compete! Just lobby to create the right situations and then wait until your small innovating competitors collapse, then get all their customers and money as default.
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Aug 5, 2022 08:58
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Miftan posted:That's fair, but also I have no sympathy for leeching middle men who provide no value whatsoever whether it's "energy companies" who do nothing but play with spreadsheets or landlords. Oh I absolutely agree, ever since I started in this industry I realised that it's absolutely loving moronic that this poo poo isn't nationalised.
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Aug 5, 2022 08:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwar2YLS_s
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Aug 5, 2022 09:01
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OwlFancier posted:Sounds like a free market solution to me, make it their problem and they'll have to innovate a solution. (In the Leicester branch of those riots, the town authorities impounded the cheese wheels in the Corn Exchange on the promise that it would be sold at a flat rate the next day, which stopped the rioting. Merchants complained, but were told that the town could always just not guard the cheeses and see what happened. There's lessons in history there, but for whom?)
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Aug 5, 2022 09:14
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Aphex- posted:It depends if the energy supplier is also a producer like British Gas. The energy company I work for is still posting pretty much the same percentage of profits it was before this whole shitstorm. What I'm hearing is that everyone else is supposed to pay more so that your employer can keep making the same level of profits at a time we're being told to tighten our belts. Perhaps energy companies should accept lower profits (we're not even talking about eating losses here!) so people aren't forced to choose between heating & food this winter. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 09:16
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forkboy84 posted:What I'm hearing is that everyone else is supposed to pay more so that your employer can keep making the same level of profits at a time we're being told to tighten our belts. Perhaps energy companies should accept lower profits (we're not even talking about eating losses here!) so people aren't forced to choose between heating & food this winter. BTW the level of profit for my company is around 2% so yeah they can definitely reduce that if they want but lmao trying to persuade the higher ups to reduce 2% to 1% or less. Edit: Also I agree with you, but it's probably best to focus on the producers first since they're the ones profiting off of this crisis specifically, rather than the BAU suppliers. Aphex- fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 09:18
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nm
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Aug 5, 2022 09:19
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Aphex- posted:BTW the level of profit for my company is around 2% so yeah they can definitely reduce that if they want but lmao trying to persuade the higher ups to reduce 2% to 1% or less. Oh yeah, it'll never happen. I absolutely loathe the doctrine of eternal growth, it's so damaging on so many levels. In fairness to me, Aphex's follow up hadn't been made when I wrote that. Besides, don't really think I was attacking them for their bosses sins. I worked for loving Capita at one point!
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Aug 5, 2022 09:21
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forkboy84 posted:Oh yeah, it'll never happen. I absolutely loathe the doctrine of eternal growth, it's so damaging on so many levels. I don't blame you for the tone of your posts whatsoever since this whole crisis is horrific and it really is going to be unimaginably awful this winter for a lot of people.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:23
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You're both fine, it was me being an idiot on several levels. Feel free to move on with your days.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:25
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Mega Comrade posted:Well the small ones aren't. They are going bust, and then being gobbled up by the big ones. That massive increase in your standing charge is due to allowing a wild west of "small innovating competitors" to enter the market without any capital or hedging requirements. Because all the innovating they did involved just taking on a massive amount of risk with fixed price contracts that would bankrupt them instantly if energy prices rose too much. All the lobbying from the big companies (in which they repeatedly told the regulator this would happen for years) got completely ignored. It really can't be overstated the astonishing level of incompetence at OFGEM that has made this all much worse. It's one of those industries where competition is mostly a stupid idea.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:28
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I think the point of the don’t pay campaign isn’t just to hit the energy companies, it’s more to hit them so hard that the government have to do something. Because they clearly want to ignore it and let the market sort it out no matter the suffering inflicted.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:28
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peanut- posted:
Oh for sure. But if we are to have some I'd rather it was proper instead of having a few large monopolies. At least it's better than water 
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Aug 5, 2022 09:52
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Specifically it seems the point isn't to even necessarily deny them the money so much as force a mass arbitrage that they don't have the resources to handle, and thus will do what anything Too Big To Fail will do and make the government deal with the hard part.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:56
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Mega Comrade posted:Oh for sure. But if we are to have some I'd rather it was proper instead of having a few large monopolies. At least it's better than water Speak for yourself, Tess's Filtered Piss is making me a killing.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:57
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Mostly in the kidneys.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:58
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I don't think you really need an organised bill strike tbh, mass non-payment is just going to happen when January bills hit anyway.
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Aug 5, 2022 09:58
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If you want a laugh, Tory weirdos on twitter are currently having their own version of the "Question Time audiences are stacked" argument. Except it's incredibly stupid because they're mad that a guy in the audience who criticised Liz Truss was previously Anna Soubry's chief of staff... while she was a Conservative MP and before Brexit. People who have actively worked for Tory MPs in government are no longer Tory enough to be legitimate.
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Aug 5, 2022 10:09
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Aphex- posted:Oh I absolutely agree, ever since I started in this industry I realised that it's absolutely loving moronic that this poo poo isn't nationalised. Yeah same, I spent some time working for Thames Water and there's no coherent justification for them being private beyond: More money for us; gently caress you.
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Aug 5, 2022 10:10
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Tesseraction posted:Specifically it seems the point isn't to even necessarily deny them the money so much as force a mass arbitrage that they don't have the resources to handle, and thus will do what anything Too Big To Fail will do and make the government deal with the hard part. I see it as a way of forcing nationalisation: a messy and rushed seizure of their assets is still preferable to the status quo.
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Aug 5, 2022 10:12
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I was also intrigued by the Don't Pay campaign because they have to wait a minimum of 28 days and offer a payment plan for your direct debit before they can switch you to a prepaid meter - which is the case even though it can be done remotely via Smart Meters if you have one... But someone in my work chat pointed out that Centrica et al are going to have more than enough of a buffer to ride out a month or two of reduced cashflow, and then everyone's account is just a month in arrears and we all have missed payments on our credit files, nothing changes (or the energy companies get a government bailout) and the world continues on as before. VVVV - Yeah but you still just end up a month in arrears of your direct debit, even if they never change your meter to pre-pay. Like all that happens is we all get "-300" put on your account and then have to pay it some other time? Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 10:12
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They can't unilaterally change your contract without attempting to arrange a repayment plan and doing a bunch of paperwork. They can try, but if dontpay (by presenting itself as an 'apolitical' broad church) has even a handful of retired solicitors, trade union representatives, nice old ladies down the pub who help folks with their benefits papers, and Mrs Normans then they could easily grind the whole thing to a halt.
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Aug 5, 2022 10:19
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Surprise T Rex posted:VVVV - Yeah but you still just end up a month in arrears of your direct debit, even if they never change your meter to pre-pay. Like all that happens is we all get "-300" put on your account and then have to pay it some other time?
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Aug 5, 2022 10:25
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I could see the Don't Pay movement getting the government to take action to allow energy companies to send bailiffs for unpaid bills in three days instead of two months
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Aug 5, 2022 10:26
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Surprise T Rex posted:I was also intrigued by the Don't Pay campaign because they have to wait a minimum of 28 days and offer a payment plan for your direct debit before they can switch you to a prepaid meter - which is the case even though it can be done remotely via Smart Meters if you have one... they'll still book it as revenue but their cash collection will shoot up, that's not good but it's not a crisis for them either
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Aug 5, 2022 10:29
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Unfortunately it's going to be a pretty awful time for the overworked, underpaid people in the call centres as they'll get the brunt of abuse from customers.
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Aug 5, 2022 10:32
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don't pay seems a bit suspect in that they aren't offering any kind of advice or support to the people they are encouraging to break a contract, and they also acknowledge giving your info to social media firms while they/whoever provided the seed funding remain strictly anonymous let's say they get a million supporters and maybe 1 in 20 of them actually goes ahead and cancels- that's just 50k extra cases for debt companies to gently caress with people over, spread over a few firms- most of that work is automated, it's not going to be much workload/cash strain above those already not paying for more traditional reasons imo there's a fair chance it's being run as a distraction and as a relief valve for public discontent that in no way threatens the profitability or market security of the energy companies
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Aug 5, 2022 10:32
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the value of don't pay is not the specific financial effect it will have, e.g. putting your energy provider into bankruptcy isn't going to help you with your short-term goals of keeping the lights on in your house it's about demonstrating a willingness to organise and act as a bloc, even if our current market/political leadership does not respond to it creates an opportunity for someone else to. and yeah it's not the strongest strategy but it seems a lot more concrete than the other options of wait 2 years for a GE or ??? e: tbh i'm always far more suspicious of the people who inevitably pop up around any kind for civil disobedience etc say oh it's an op it's an op, stay home, don't get involved, don't do anything Rustybear fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 10:38
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https://twitter.com/IsabelOrtizUN/status/1555486614473826304?t=WDt4rmy9WE82adsbpBtRbg&s=19 So about the raw price of energy being responsible for price spikes..?
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Aug 5, 2022 10:55
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Rustybear posted:the value of don't pay is not the specific financial effect it will have, e.g. putting your energy provider into bankruptcy isn't going to help you with your short-term goals of keeping the lights on in your house And it's also introducing a lot of law abiding middles to the idea that if someone is blatantly taking the piss there are things you can do outside of the 'mustn't grumble' or 'let's change supplier' frameworks.
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Aug 5, 2022 11:02
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Rishi saying the quiet part loud https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1555476253045673987
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Aug 5, 2022 11:06
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Miftan posted:https://twitter.com/IsabelOrtizUN/status/1555486614473826304?t=WDt4rmy9WE82adsbpBtRbg&s=19 The oil price has come back down a bit, but it's gas that's the biggie when it comes to energy bills, and gas spot prices are literally 1000% higher than 2 years ago. https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/uk-natural-gas The solution is to directly massively subsidize energy bills plus a huge punitive tax on gas producers, but, well, lol. Chinese Gordon fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 11:12
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Rishi getting desperate with his wholly unconvincing full fash pivot. He's belatedly realised he's not actually running a GE campaign and instead has to appeal exclusively to rich elderly far right loons. Too little, too late, though. All hail our glorious new leader: https://twitter.com/jamesorharry/status/1547514330295549953 Chinese Gordon fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 11:13
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Chinese Gordon posted:The oil price has come back down a bit, but it's gas that's the biggie when it comes to energy bills, and gas spot prices are literally 1000% higher than 2 years ago. It's only like 400% from the long-term average, but still yeah.
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Aug 5, 2022 11:20
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It should also be noted that the only reason the oil price is down is because the market is starting to price in a massive recession. Fun times.
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Aug 5, 2022 11:24
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peanut- posted:I don't think you really need an organised bill strike tbh, mass non-payment is just going to happen when January bills hit anyway. Even though this does make my "It's an op" sense tingle, I don't think this is a deliberate reframinng by paid interests so much as it is a bunch of well meaning centre-leftists who haven't thought it through fully. As comes up so many times in these discussions though, if your other option is "or starve" then it's not really a loving choice.
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Aug 5, 2022 11:31
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