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Shots fired: https://www.facebook.com/brokenanvilminiatures/posts/486993223431027Broken Anvil Miniatures posted:Understanding Not All 3D Prints Are the Same” Anyway, has there been a date given for when the Beta rules become final?
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Aug 6, 2022 06:15
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re: reddit the subreddit has always been weirdly inactive so not surprising to see little to no discussion there
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Aug 6, 2022 08:27
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I've just heard the first about a new edition being launched, came back to check how it looks and what they fixed, and I feel like the meme guy coming back with pizza to find everything broken and on fire. Well, at least it's shaping to be another entertaining clusterfuck, I guess?
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Aug 6, 2022 15:39
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KPC_Mammon posted:I wish they just focused on rules and made the files to print your own models available with their monthly subscription. They clearly can't handle production anymore and lots of local libraries have 3d printers people can access. There's no way that the money made selling STLs would come close to paying for the salaries of the sculptors and game designers making the actual rules. Pierzak posted:I've just heard the first about a new edition being launched, came back to check how it looks and what they fixed, and I feel like the meme guy coming back with pizza to find everything broken and on fire. It's been largely positive outside of the single report of a dude getting uncured resin, it's just that goons love to blow things out of proportion.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:27
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CaptCommy posted:There's no way that the money made selling STLs would come close to paying for the salaries of the sculptors and game designers making the actual rules. Dude the model quality is also poo poo for the prices they're charging. You can see layer lines and stepping on every kit.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:41
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CaptCommy posted:There's no way that the money made selling STLs would come close to paying for the salaries of the sculptors and game designers making the actual rules. What they could do is tie the files to their subscription service. So $10/month gets you a new release, warroom2, articles, etc. They can still run their jank shop, but we can also get models ourselves or from people who know how to use their equipment. CaptCommy posted:It's been largely positive outside of the single report of a dude getting uncured resin, it's just that goons love to blow things out of proportion. The uncured resin, stepping/lines, ridiculous estimates of 3D printing capabilities, and their process post where they revealed that they're not following manufacture's specs. That's all quoted/shown ITT. There's a really weird Pollyanna positivity about all this. PP is in a bad place and people need this to succeed, but they're drunkenly stumbling towards their F-150 and the fanboy reaction is a mixture of "he ain't drunk" and "he drives better after a few." That might be because of the social media clampdown veiled as "positivity." They're absolutely going to splat when people who haven't drank the Koolaide spend $200 on lovely quality miniatures, delivered late and sticky. Even if you charitably believe that BS about not being able to keep up with demand before release, what does that tell you to expect when there's a game?
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Aug 6, 2022 19:12
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It feels like there's also a lot of intense doomsaying in this thread and apparently Facebook and nowhere else that I can find. Clearly there are issues and it's certainly the sort of gently caress up that would be in keeping with Privateer but this could also be a less widespread problem than it's being made out to be here.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:31
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rantmo posted:It feels like there's also a lot of intense doomsaying in this thread and apparently Facebook and nowhere else that I can find. Clearly there are issues and it's certainly the sort of gently caress up that would be in keeping with Privateer but this could also be a less widespread problem than it's being made out to be here. The Facebook groups are the most active community spaces for WMH and have been since they closed the faction forums.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:44
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This and FB are places anybody's even talking about MkIV and mentioning the problems got me kicked from the FB. I'm probably not the only person that's happened to. I watched in real time as PP scrubbed every concerned comment.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:49
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Uncured resin isn't just something you can handwave away, either. It's a huge fuckup.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:59
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smug jeebus posted:Shots fired: https://www.facebook.com/brokenanvilminiatures/posts/486993223431027 Broken Anvil is like a year behind fulfillment on the Dungeon Delvers Kickstarter. Maybe don't throw #noexcuses stones?
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Aug 6, 2022 20:03
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The doomsaying in here has mostly been carried by moths serial posting. It doesn't feel like good faith call-outs, feels like you're invested in their failure. With the glee you've got about the missteps, I can see why you got banned out. I've popped in and out of the official pages, looking for any of this intense scrubbing you say is going on either and not finding it. Possible I'm not spending enough time keeping their page under a microscope, but if that's the case- how much time are you spending F5'ing the page trying to find this?
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Aug 6, 2022 20:07
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It's unsettling just how well that strategy works for PR. How many variations of "If there are problems, people would be taking about them" here ITT, where we're talking about the problems. E: I love the quirks and disasters of this industry, and forgive me if I'm fascinated by PP painting themselves onto this late-stage TSR landscape. moths fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 20:09
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moths posted:Even if you charitably believe that BS about not being able to keep up with demand before release, what does that tell you to expect when there's a game? I really don't follow this. Resin drama aside, why is "We need X weeks to produce the deluge of online orders we've received; if we want to stay on track for our actual Starter Boxes being produced in October we need to stop taking online orders" such an impossibility?
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Aug 6, 2022 20:10
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It's a big, big assumption that they're intending to have enough for October. The production they're using isn't intended for the scale they're applying it to. Because it doesn't work at this scale. People don't do it. They've largely addressed this with Shut up, it'll work, stop being negative.
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Aug 6, 2022 20:16
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If nothing else both the print issues and how fast they shut down orders has taken me from "I might want to try and start a MK4 group at my store" to " I might play MK4 if a group develops at my store".
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Aug 6, 2022 20:21
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As much as I want to believe them, having heard about how cheap Matt and his wife are when it comes to materials and personnel, I'll wait and see.
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Aug 6, 2022 20:26
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PharmerBoy posted:The doomsaying in here has mostly been carried by moths serial posting. It doesn't feel like good faith call-outs, feels like you're invested in their failure. With the glee you've got about the missteps, I can see why you got banned out. I've popped in and out of the official pages, looking for any of this intense scrubbing you say is going on either and not finding it. Possible I'm not spending enough time keeping their page under a microscope, but if that's the case- how much time are you spending F5'ing the page trying to find this? Here you go bud. https://imgur.com/a/eOrVlCs
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Aug 6, 2022 20:31
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S.J. posted:As much as I want to believe them, having heard about how cheap Matt and his wife are when it comes to materials and personnel, I'll wait and see. This kind of thing is why my faith is lacking personally, even back in the day if you were in the know you'd hear how poo poo PP paid and whatnot.
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Aug 6, 2022 21:20
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moths posted:What they could do is tie the files to their subscription service. So $10/month gets you a new release, warroom2, articles, etc. They can still run their jank shop, but we can also get models ourselves or from people who know how to use their equipment. The millisecond they sell the STLs, they'll end up in the hands of anyone who wants them for free. The handful of people who still subscribe will absolutely not pay the salaries for keeping the company going. Like, I have no vested interest in PP succeeding (or failing) because it's almost certain I'm not gonna switch off of MCP. But there's a really good reason no one actually making a minis game is just selling STLs
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Aug 6, 2022 21:26
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So how does one know if they have a model with uncured resin?
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Aug 6, 2022 21:32
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CaptCommy posted:The millisecond they sell the STLs, they'll end up in the hands of anyone who wants them for free. The handful of people who still subscribe will absolutely not pay the salaries for keeping the company going. Like, I have no vested interest in PP succeeding (or failing) because it's almost certain I'm not gonna switch off of MCP. But there's a really good reason no one actually making a minis game is just selling STLs rydiafan posted:Broken Anvil is like a year behind fulfillment on the Dungeon Delvers Kickstarter. Maybe don't throw #noexcuses stones?
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Aug 6, 2022 22:09
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rantmo posted:So how does one know if they have a model with uncured resin? By the taste
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Aug 6, 2022 22:09
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I'm still feeling positive. It's early days yet. Gencon rumour mill and facebook hysteria all just sounds a bit too 4chan for me to take at face value for now. (Admittedly it's easy for me to feel that way when I haven't spent any money on the new stuff yet.) I'm enjoying pulling my Protectorate out of storage and building armies with the beta cards, and at this stage am still planning on picking up one of the new starter sets in October.
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Aug 6, 2022 23:07
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moths posted:It's unsettling just how well that strategy works for PR. There are shitloads of people talking about the uncured resin issue, but all of it seems to trace back to that one Facebook post. Has anybody yet found a second example? There's a difference between a widespread problem and a problem that's being discussed widely, and I love more evidence that this is the first and not the second. And yeah, Privateer Press is going really heavy-handed deleting posts, and that's obviously a mistake, but that's a separate issue from the resin.
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Aug 6, 2022 23:16
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smug jeebus posted:That's what I would expect too but Broken Anvil appears to be seeing STLs for their Rivenstone game. Their FAQ just says you're 'not allowed' to share them, so I'm not really sure how they're pulling it off. AFAIK, that is a FAQ about their normal business of selling generic STLs like all this stuff: https://www.brokenanvilminis.com/collections/dungeon-delvers From what I've heard about Rivenstone, it's going to only be purchasable through normal retail channels (they haven't actually launched this game yet, just the initial KS that did not have any STL rewards)
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Aug 7, 2022 01:21
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Yeah, Privateer being poo poo at communicating is scarcely a shock.
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Aug 7, 2022 01:21
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rydiafan posted:There's a difference between a widespread problem and a problem that's being discussed widely, and I love more evidence that this is the first and not the second. This is where I am at, at least for now. The post identifying the problem was not nearly as alarmist as the people reacting to the post. It's totally plausible that Privateer Press has not actually ironed out all of its processes. Assuming they never will is quite the take. I think I will be waiting before buying any of the new stuff, but that's not really much of a change for me since it looks like there will be no Hordes side releases until summer of 2023.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:03
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rydiafan posted:There are shitloads of people talking about the uncured resin issue, but all of it seems to trace back to that one Facebook post. Has anybody yet found a second example? There's a difference between a widespread problem and a problem that's being discussed widely, and I love more evidence that this is the first and not the second. Procedurally, there's no way to gently caress up only one figure. Most people don't realize what uncured resin even is, and Adam's alternate facts from the screen caps imply that it's not happening or possible. If he cheaped out and is using water instead of alcohol (per manufacturers suggestions) like he said he's doing, what would happen is that old resin would break down, becoming incurable but stick to the figure. If you read his big statement thoroughly, it has the dual thesis that nothing is wrong and thanks for standing by us while everything goes wrong. Specifically, he talks about adjusting the cure times to solve the resin contamination that isn't happening. If one guy got and recognized uncured resin, that's "just one" rat turd in the soup. Other people might think it's capers, but you can't just tell everyone it's capers and offer a different serving from the same pot. Adam acknowledged that they increased cure times, which means uncured resin was going out. But this isn't a cure time issue. The problem is that their cleaning process - as they've described it - is causing degraded resin is floating in the wash. It's too broken down to cure, but will cling to figures and fingers and food and pets. There is a chance that they're actually using water washable resin though. I don't have experience with it because it costs ~40% more than the regular stuff. Using water washable in manufacturing might have made sense at the start of the pandemic, when alcohol was at a premium. But today it's on the same dumb with using prototyping equipment for this scale of production anyway. I'd REALLY love a chance to look at their setup. I'll probably summarize the last few pages and take it over to industry chat next week; I'm getting the impression that Privateer betting the farm on Red 31 might be a sore subject. Maneck posted:Assuming they never will is quite the take. Nobody is saying never, but they realistically have one month to figure it out. That leaves another month to fill preorders and generate an entire launch wave using equipment never intended for any of that. At best, they'll figure out they shouldn't be doing this and cut their losses. Either getting out of manufacturer all together, partnering with Shapeways, investing in Silocast, or monetizing the files. moths fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 03:31
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moths posted:Procedurally, there's no way to gently caress up only one figure. Most people don't realize what uncured resin even is, and Adam's alternate facts from the screen caps imply that it's not happening or possible. From my understanding, even water-washable resin should still be washed in IPA for best results. Just because you can wash with water doesn't make it effective.
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Aug 7, 2022 03:46
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moths posted:I'll probably summarize the last few pages and take it over to industry chat next week; I'm getting the impression that Privateer betting the farm on Red 31 might be a sore subject.
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Aug 7, 2022 04:23
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i mean it definitely is but nobody's going to turn up their nose at wargame news either
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Aug 7, 2022 04:27
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I have no clue what Red 31 is
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Aug 7, 2022 04:58
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I think it's a roulette reference.
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Aug 7, 2022 05:00
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Saying Privateer Press is taking a gamble is no doubt accurate but it's very tough to estimate how great a risk it is. I get where moths is coming from. The Privateer Press Facebook pages are overrun with people who have drunken deeply of the Kool Aide. A post saying that the $75 starter packs are good and should be permanent - is getting attacked. On what planet is having a starter box in the impulse purchase range a bad idea? Arguing that the new box sets are a good value isn't a counter to that. Those things are checking in at more than standard GW quarterly releases in my currency, and irrespective of value that means they're missing an important price point. See also, the post with the guy who had the sticky, uncured models has a demanding the guy with the sticky model paint it. And then the sticky model gets painted, and the defects are clearly visible - and the same guy claims he can't see it because the picture is of insufficient quality. It's like arguing with cult members. No room for rationality. On the other hand, Privateer Press sold out their full availability to print in days, so apparently there is enough enthusiasm for this to work, and if they are selling out their runs they can probably get more financing for more hardware which could fix the issues they're having (more capacity means more room to play with settings/wash cycles/cure times). Because the issues they have seem completely fixable.
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Aug 7, 2022 11:55
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As someone who's been 3D printing minis with resin since late 2020, I'll add my voice to the chorus of "I would not buy those minis". The quality looks bad in regards to layer lines/stepping/etc., the details look soft, and the fully cured resin figure should be matte and not tacky; being shiny and tacky means the resin has not been cured fully. I don't know what machines they're using to print with, what resins they're using, or what their cleaning and curing process is; but to me it doesn't bode well for this decision of theirs when I get better results with my Elegoo Saturn and Elegoo Mercury wash and cure station doing hobbyist stuff, than a company that's going to supposedly be doing this for mass production. Hard pass from me, which is a pity since I was hoping to start up a new Khador force, but not with what I've been seeing thus far. E: Serenade posted:My experience with 3d resin printing is only that of a hobbyist and thus is fairly limited but, To be fair, if they're splitting a warjack into multiple smaller parts, it would conceivably cut the print time down a fair bit; as you say, height is one of the factors in how long something takes to print, so the smaller of a profile you can make something (whether by angling it so it has a shorter profile, or by splitting it into smaller multiple pieces), theoretically it should take less time to print. That being said, 1.5 hours still sounds like it's way too far on the low end of the scale. Without going into a bunch of resin 3D printer nerd stuff, long story short is that even the fastest newer mono screen printers generally say that most prints will take on average at least 3-4 hours to do a print. There are settings and firmwares and whatnot that people say they use to speed up their print times, but in my experience cutting corners for speed usually means more failed prints that have to be cleaned off the printer's build plate and out of the resin vat before you can try printing again. Unless PP has access to some fancy new 3D printing tech that isn't at the consumer level yet, they're going to have so many wasted manhours just cleaning up all the failed prints because they were trying to make a warjack take less than two hours to print. I should add that I err on the side of caution, and have my print settings slowed down, so that way I can usually just fire off a print, make sure the first few layers print OK and that there aren't any problems with leaks etc., and then go to bed. One of the benefits to resin printing is that it is very much a "set it and forget it" kind of thing. 
Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 15:10
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From Facebook about an hour ago:Privateer Press posted:A quick update regarding Uncured Resin: The customer who purchased a preview battlegroup at Gen Con and believed they had received product with uncured resin was able to return to the Privateer booth Saturday with the model kit. After a thorough inspection of each part, we were able to determine that what was being interpreted as uncured resin was in fact, what we expected, residue from the ultrasonic cleaning process. The model parts were entirely cured, but detritus from the ultrasonic cleaning process had deposited a bit of chalky buildup. We have addressed this issue after noticing it during our original production run by increasing the frequency of cycling of our ultrasonic cleaning baths, but some earlier produced parts did make it through our packing process. While the residue can be easily removed with a little isopropyl alcohol and the abrasion of a soft toothbrush or even just covered with a coat of primer, if you encounter this issue with the models and don’t wish to clean them, you can contact frontdesk@privateerpress.com for a replacement. But most importantly, while we have taken many steps to ensure models do not possess this chalky residue from the cleaning process, if it does appear on a model it does not indicate uncured resin or make the models dangerous to handle. Always practice safety when working with resin, however, by wearing a respirator when sanding and using a wet sanding technique, and wash your hands and clean your workstation after working with resin, whether it’s 3D printed or cast.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:00
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Nah, absolutely not. The original poster had plenty of print experience and noted the tackiness of uncured resin and burning in his fingertips from handling it. The residue in the bath is uncured resin, and this is more gaslighting from Wilson.
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Aug 7, 2022 17:52
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Chalky residue is often the result of not waiting until your resin prints are 100% dry from their cleaning wash before curing them. This is why everyone recommends using alcohol to clean resin 3D prints, as it not only breaks down the loose resin, but it also evaporates faster than water. I generally let my resin prints sit and air dry for at least 20 minutes (though it usually ends up being an hour or so as I often forget and start doing other things while they're air drying). You can of course speed this up with a hair dryer or a small fan or something, but I'm fine with waiting. But I guess that's why I'm just a hobbyist and not trying to make 3D printed minis the business model for my wargaming company.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:03
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If Matt Wilson is lying, that'll come out pretty fast since the guy who bought it could still post.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:04
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