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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The answer I give to "what was Gene's vision?" is that Gene Roddenberry wanted the second Star Trek movie to be a retread of Tomorrow is Yesterday and City on the Edge of Forever, in which John F. Kennedy comes aboard the Enterprise and is figuratively blown by Captain Kirk, and the climax of the movie - after realizing the tragic truth that Kennedy must die - is Spock on the grassy knoll shooting JFK. Maybe this would explain the "duality of Picard" I read a long time ago. When comparing Picard and Kirk, someone told me "it depends on which Picard. TV Picard would make a great, inspiring speech. Movie Picard would smash his teacup and scream a lot." I do remember seeing random Trek stuff on SyFy a long time ago and one them was TNG movie with Picard with a tommygun going apeshit on Borg I think. That would be very much against Genes wishes or vision while TV Picard is closer to what he wanted. nine-gear crow posted:Voyager was like the #1 most popular Trek show on Netflix before it was yanked away for Paramount+ exclusivity. It has accumulated quite a large number of new fans purely off of streaming, so it has slowly been Overton Window'd into being a show that stands shoulder to shoulder with TNG and DS9 in a lot of peoples' consciousnesses moreso than it was received on while it was on the air in the late 90s. That's interesting to hear. I'm sure I'd like it well enough. My only regret is the only scifi TV show I've watched all the way through was Stargate SG-1. I REALLY regret this by the final two seasons but even before that, looking back, I'm not a fan. I wish I had watched...I dunno, everyone tells me Babylon 5 is the best thing ever. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 05:33
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babylon 5 is about two seasons of incredible TV crammed into a five season show
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Aug 9, 2022 05:40
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Tunicate posted:Just watch the actually good one, Farscape That's not how you spell Red Dwarf
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Aug 9, 2022 06:37
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God I love Argyle
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Aug 9, 2022 12:32
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Halfway through E S3 and I'm gonna come out and say it. I think Enterprise is better than Voyager (so far). Both are at that 6/10 level, but E just feels more compelling. Here's what Voyager kind of suffered from in my opinion: Bland enemies. I get that we can't just always have Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians, and logistics of distance don't line up, but ... just about every race they introduced that was supposed to be a key element in their stories felt like "oh we can't have one of the good enemies so let's just put a crazy wig on someone and give them a melted-face look, or let's use our 1999 era CG to come up with a body horror clownshow. I dunno how to explain it any better than that, but none of the core races of Voyager really captured my imagination. I know we got episodes with the classic race enemies in Voyager, and those always felt like a treat, but then we were back to the dregs. I'm sure someone will now list all the ways I'm wrong that I'm just not remembering, and there WERE some GREAT one-off races which I will freely admit, but the whole vibe of that show felt very "B-list enemies" to me after the last re-watch a few months ago.
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Aug 9, 2022 12:53
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some kinda jackal posted:Halfway through E S3 and I'm gonna come out and say it. I think Enterprise is better than Voyager (so far). Both are at that 6/10 level, but E just feels more compelling. It's been years since I watched Voyager but the only enemies that had potential from the early seasons were vidiians. I get the nature of the show was that a permanent enemy was going to be hard but the Kazon were just less techy Klingons and the Viidians were legit scary but they used them what? twice?
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Aug 9, 2022 13:02
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I definitely agree that Voyager had kind of a second-rate feeling about the whole aesthetic, though I can't really pinpoint why. Presumably not the budget. It just, I dunno, wasn't designed as well somehow. It looked more "TV" than its predecessors.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:07
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The late 90s early 00s CG has a lot to do with taking me out of it in that way. I’m seeing the same in Enterprise — exterior shots definitely date the shows much more than TNG’s practical models. DS9 somehow managed to avoid the “it’s Lightwave again  ” feeling for me, somehow, though.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:11
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Sir Lemming posted:I definitely agree that Voyager had kind of a second-rate feeling about the whole aesthetic, though I can't really pinpoint why. Presumably not the budget. It just, I dunno, wasn't designed as well somehow. It looked more "TV" than its predecessors. A fish rots from the head down, the head in this case being the apathetic writers room who were basically writing auto-pilot TNG Season 8 episodes most of the time from the start of the show
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Aug 9, 2022 13:16
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Tunicate posted:babylon 5 is about two seasons of incredible TV crammed into a five season show Well let's not get too extreme here, it's about two seasons of incredible TV and about two to two and a half more seasons of good TV.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:27
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some kinda jackal posted:The late 90s early 00s CG has a lot to do with taking me out of it in that way. I’m seeing the same in Enterprise — exterior shots definitely date the shows much more than TNG’s practical models. DS9 somehow managed to avoid the “it’s Lightwave again DS9 was mostly models and kept using them for most closer up and less complex shots all of its run, and when they did use CGI it was often intermixed with the model effects and they'd be using those as reference for lighting and materials and tune it to match.
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Aug 9, 2022 13:36
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I'm not a big believer in the total St Roddenberry hagiography of the 70s and 80s. The man had flaws, and a lot of people contributed to what made Star Trek. But no matter how hard revisionists try, they can never escape the indisputable fact: TOS and TNG would not exist without him. "He was a drug addict! He was a pervy sex addict! He did shady things to profit off his television show! (Unlike the altruistic corporate overlords at Disney?) He let his skeevy lawyer run things!" All that is true, but he also had the core of the vision. Not all the vision, because many contributed, but it's also notable he let them contribute. Try as you might to imply it, there is no way Star Trek would have risen up in some gestalt of 60s network tv where Gene Coon, Fred Freiberger, D.C. Fontana, Wah Ching, Alexander Courage, Matt Jeffries, and Bill Theiss came together like the Cylons in BSG, hearing All Along The Watchtower and walking into the Desilu and CBS offices with a vision and got handed a budget and timeslot. Sometimes it feels that the more people seethe about Roddenberry, the more they wish it was so. And same too, for all the deeper and more obvious flaws of TNG S1-2, it wouldn't have come back and certainly not in the form it did without Gene's vision. You might also make the argument that it was in reaction to Gene's flaws that things changed and the shows developed into what they are--and a strength came from those flaws.
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Aug 9, 2022 15:55
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I like the red panels on the bridge, but I do appreciate the aesthetic of what they changed it to
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Aug 9, 2022 16:07
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Tighclops posted:I would like to know more https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Earth_(film) Contains the immortal line “women’s lib? Or women’s lib gone mad?” But it’s clearly somebody’s fantasy. I wonder what the effect on science fiction has been of the internet allowing everyone to get infinite amounts of any kind of fetish pornography instead of sublimating it into what is ostensibly an action adventure. There’s definitely a lot of pervy stuff in nerd media I just did not pick up on as a kid, though I would have known something was weird with this one.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:14
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I AM GRANDO posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Earth_(film) Lol Diana Muldaur is in that
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Aug 9, 2022 16:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Has time been kind to Voyager? I always love seeing these shifts over time. In my own fandoms I've seen it happen with Metal Gear Solid 2 but this feels like it might be a bit more like the shift in opinion on the Prequels. After the Sequels, people are like "maybe those weren't so bad" so maybe after the new Trek stuff people look back and say "Voyager wasn't so bad." Because my memory is people haaaaaaaaaaaaaated VOY with a passion back in the day. Feels to me like SA is a place that hates Voyager more than average. Elsewhere it's easier to discuss Voyager. Voyager will always be my default Trek, it's the one that lured me into Trek, has my favourite captain and some of the best Trek characters, and conceptually it's the most interesting Trek show concept even though they didn't go very far with it.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:41
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When Voyager is good, it's great! When Voyager isn't good, it's merely meh. Even with an infamously bad episode like Threshold I don't feel as though Voyager sinks to lows like Turnabout Intruder or Code of Honor. But I do think that Voyager is bland with occasional moments where it transcends the ennui to really great episodes (e.g: Year of Hell).
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Aug 9, 2022 16:47
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Khanstant posted:Feels to me like SA is a place that hates Voyager more than average. Elsewhere it's easier to discuss Voyager. Voyager will always be my default Trek, it's the one that lured me into Trek, has my favourite captain and some of the best Trek characters, and conceptually it's the most interesting Trek show concept even though they didn't go very far with it. Even with me calling it a 6/10, I don't think it's bad. It's nice. Comfort food you know? Sure I wish it was better, but I'm doing a rewatch and enjoying myself. Granted I'm also someone who did not enjoy SNW, so I do view it high as just it's part of old Trek which I love. Speaking of, I rarely see Blink of an Eye mentioned and it might be my favorite episode on this rewatch so far.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:48
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Yeah, I say things like "6/10" too, and "worse than enterprise", but also during my last rewatch I thought it was "fine". Like it wasn't offensively bad, it just kind of melts into that whole late 90s bland TV feeling I get when I think of shows from that era. It may just very well be a mix of being a product of the times, and a product of where I was in life when it was airing. Fully appreciate that others thing it's good or great, and it's not for me to tell anyone they're wrong. On my last rewatch I'm pretty sure I posted in here saying it wasn't as bad as I remember, but the "meh" feeling still permeates.
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Aug 9, 2022 16:53
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Also and this maybe a tad unfair to the Voyager crew but there is maybe 4 actors of the main cast that were generally good actors, in my mind anyway. (Mulgrew, Russ, Picardo, Ryan) Pairing McNeil and Dawson worked eventually and I think helped them feel more natural in the roles so maybe they could of been better with competent leadership. Compare that to TOS, TNG, and DS9 where there were relatively few holes in terms of acting/talent.
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Aug 9, 2022 17:06
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D'you suppose "groppler" is a title or a function? Are there sub-gropplers and great gropplers? Or is it more of a nickname, like Spacker Dave? "You run a whole rear end colony built on an alien jellyfish you enslave, but you gropple one fargnart..."
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Aug 9, 2022 17:53
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:When Voyager is good, it's great! When Voyager isn't good, it's merely meh. Even with an infamously bad episode like Threshold I don't feel as though Voyager sinks to lows like Turnabout Intruder or Code of Honor. But I do think that Voyager is bland with occasional moments where it transcends the ennui to really great episodes (e.g: Year of Hell). I think alot of it depends on what your impression on 'bland' is. Like I think Threshold is one of the better episodes for being so boldly weird and stupid, but I can't forvive half the episodes every season being called something like Recessions about Voyager encountering a subspace anomaly and then something bad happens that's 25% technobabble by dialogue volume or the crew encountering the universe's most annoying aliens of the week who are antagonistic in a really stupid and self-defeating way
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Aug 9, 2022 18:27
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My favorite part of ENT is how they just didn't try at all with the episode titles. Hey here's a story about how the ship runs out of gas called "Gas"
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Aug 9, 2022 18:32
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Tighclops posted:My favorite part of ENT is how they just didn't try at all with the episode titles. Hey here's a story about how the ship runs out of gas called "Gas" There was a trend at the time for ultra short simple episode titles. At least Smallville committed and gave every episode a single-word title. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 18:33
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MikeJF posted:There was a trend at the time for ultra short simple episode titles. At least Smallville committed and gave every episode a single-word title. I loved the dichotomy going from Stargate: Atlantis with titles like "Be All My Sins Remember'd" to Stargate: Universe with episode titles like "Air".
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Aug 9, 2022 18:40
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Astroman posted:I'm not a big believer in the total St Roddenberry hagiography of the 70s and 80s. The man had flaws, and a lot of people contributed to what made Star Trek. Yeah, that's true, and as much as I roll my eyes at some of his concepts, and as much as I lay the chaotic mess of TNG's early years at his feet of clay... I do genuinely appreciate that he tried pushing to show that 24th century Earth/Federation mores would be different, perhaps even a bit shocking to the sensibilities of 1980s viewers. An example that comes readily to mind is a throwaway line in the first season where Deanna Troi tells her mother that "humans no longer own each other like that," essentially saying that monogamous marriage is obsolete in the 24th century, and even though nothing really came of that line... I still appreciate that deliberate attempt to tweak the audience's (and studio's) nose a bit. I also think it was valuable to insist that Our Heroes are people we should want to be more like, that they aren't consumed with petty jealousies or rivalries. And the insistence that 24th century Earth is a peaceful and profoundly more just place than the society we live in today is, in my opinion, a non-negotiable foundation of the Star Trek setting.
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Aug 9, 2022 19:03
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Yeah, that's true, and as much as I roll my eyes at some of his concepts, and as much as I lay the chaotic mess of TNG's early years at his feet of clay... I do genuinely appreciate that he tried pushing to show that 24th century Earth/Federation mores would be different, perhaps even a bit shocking to the sensibilities of 1980s viewers. An example that comes readily to mind is a throwaway line in the first season where Deanna Troi tells her mother that "humans no longer own each other like that," essentially saying that monogamous marriage is obsolete in the 24th century, and even though nothing really came of that line... I still appreciate that deliberate attempt to tweak the audience's (and studio's) nose a bit. Star Trek is Reason TV's (a Libertarian magazine/organization) #1 most un-Libertarian show. I just always found that funny. I think it's for the reasons you listed and then some. For example, I mentioned earlier I watched random Trek stuff on SyFy forever ago. I remember a weird TOS episode with them at some space mine thing with an alien and they were trying to stop it and get profits back on track or something. (Sorry it's been a while.) Anyway, I then saw some TNG movies where Picard flatly says money just doesn't really exist in the Federation. I asked about these two things which seemed contradictory and was told the Federation's economy is totally inconsistent. But despite all that, I think I agree with you and the original person I quoted. A lot of times I feel like that Enterprise episode is more realistic and believable with the humans murdering and robbing the Vulcan. (I think Fallout would agree.) But lately, I wanna buy into First Contact's account of events and the ideas I've seen and read about in the earlier TV series. Humans hosed up royally just like Picard admitted to Q but we've gotten better. We can be better.
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Aug 9, 2022 19:14
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NikkolasKing posted:Star Trek is Reason TV's (a Libertarian magazine/organization) #1 most un-Libertarian show. I just always found that funny. I think it's for the reasons you listed and then some. I guess Neelix wasn't enough to bring in that demographic
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Aug 9, 2022 19:26
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Voyager is generic star trek. It's a white bag with STAR TREK stamped on it in black stencil. And it's perfectly fine.
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Aug 9, 2022 19:41
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No Dignity posted:I think alot of it depends on what your impression on 'bland' is. Like I think Threshold is one of the better episodes for being so boldly weird and stupid, but I can't forvive half the episodes every season being called something like Recessions about Voyager encountering a subspace anomaly and then something bad happens that's 25% technobabble by dialogue volume or the crew encountering the universe's most annoying aliens of the week who are antagonistic in a really stupid and self-defeating way This is true. Threshold is dumb as hell but it at least pushes the concept a bit beyond walls of Treknobabble  . I'd almost put Threshold in the same category as Spock's Brain: stupid concept but the execution is so-bad-it's-good.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:25
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We are forgetting Roddenberry's magnum opus... Earth: Final Conflict
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Aug 9, 2022 20:26
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Burning_Monk posted:We are forgetting Roddenberry's magnum opus... the "don't go back to front; Majel has a terrible infection" memo
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Aug 9, 2022 20:29
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A lot of the famous terrible Voyager eps/scenes are in the first two seasons. Threshold was ep #31. "Outrageous Okona" was TNG ep #30. I think Okona is way worse. Also real heads know the worst Voyager episodes are Chakotay episodes and the one where Janeway plays her ancestor and it's not an episode of ST at all.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:42
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NikkolasKing posted:For example, I mentioned earlier I watched random Trek stuff on SyFy forever ago. I remember a weird TOS episode with them at some space mine thing with an alien and they were trying to stop it and get profits back on track or something. (Sorry it's been a while.) It sounds like you're describing 'Devil in the Dark'.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:49
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Voyager is my fav trek, Janeway my fav captain, hell I love Little House on the Prairie and even I have to dip out on episodes where she's getting off on the holodeck.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:51
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The DaVinci stuff is dire
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Aug 9, 2022 20:54
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zoux posted:The DaVinci stuff is dire Nah that's a paradise compared to her weird Emily Bronte fan fic.
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Aug 9, 2022 20:57
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I've been skimming through Voyager recently and my main impression of it is that it's just exceptionally safe and bland, which is fine if you just want another hour of Star Trek every week but it completely blends together into a beige paste when I try to take it as a whole. Outside of the production-blessed characters like the Doctor and Seven who are allowed to have a discrete amount of character development every season, and the Paris-Torres romance, everybody in season 7 is essentially in the same place they were in season 1, which feels like a massive backwards step compared to DS9 and even TNG, especially considering the overall setting of the show.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:00
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Eimi posted:Nah that's a paradise compared to her weird Emily Bronte fan fic. Yeah, DaVinci is dire but at least it somewhat fits the character, the Bronte stuff just didn't mesh with Janeway at all.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:02
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In what way did the TNG characters change and grow from 1 to 7 (apart from weird idiosyncrasies where they hadn't quite figured out characters) Part of my dislike for the DaVinci stuff is that I think JRD is absolutely terrible in the role
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Aug 9, 2022 21:02
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