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zoux posted:In what way did the TNG characters change and grow from 1 to 7 (apart from weird idiosyncrasies where they hadn't quite figured out characters) Data has growth in understanding humans and the human condition. Picard is less frosty through the series. Riker becomes more assured of himself and finds the balance of when to take risk. Worf learns to integrate his human and Klingon upbringing over time. I'd also argue that Wesley learns that he doesn't have to live in the shadow of his family.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:11
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Mooseontheloose posted:Data has growth in understanding humans and the human condition. Troi is replaced by Marina Sirtis.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:28
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zoux posted:A lot of the famous terrible Voyager eps/scenes are in the first two seasons. Threshold was ep #31. "Outrageous Okona" was TNG ep #30. I think Okona is way worse. 11:59 would unironically be one of my top ten voyager episodes. it's really good, imo. like yeah, it's got basically nothing Trek about it but it's a good story that talks about the themes and meaning of the franchise and that's enough for me.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:35
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Mooseontheloose posted:Data has growth in understanding humans and the human condition. I think that the incidences of other characters saying "That's very....human of you Data" accumulate but I don't think his behavior changes much. To the point that he feels it's necessary to install the emotion chip in Generations after not getting a joke. Picard is more or less the same from s3 on You'd have to give me examples for Riker, XO is a really tough position on a show because they're basically The Captain Jr. and Riker only works because Frakes rules. Worf is still regularly struggling with his Klingonness in DS9 I'll give you Wesley, ascending into the next plane of existence is a character change. Burning_Monk posted:Troi is replaced by Marina Sirtis. I was thinking about this the other day but the 3 instances in which major female cast members who normally wear space athleisure end up in uni's is a major upgrade. Troi, Seven and Kira all look so much better in regulation attire, Nana Visitor in the Best Uniforms when she got brevet commissioned into Starfleet at the end of season 7 is revelatory. zoux fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 21:36
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Riker grew a beard and continues to grow in every series he appears in
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Aug 9, 2022 21:45
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NikkolasKing posted:Star Trek is Reason TV's (a Libertarian magazine/organization) #1 most un-Libertarian show. I just always found that funny. I think it's for the reasons you listed and then some. I really like the season one finale, when Picard explains to the unfrozen businessman from the 20th century that they've eliminated want and greed, the need to accumulate things and prove one's worth with material and economic gains, that humanity had grown out of its infancy. Trek history proposes a final requiem, a nuclear world war that nearly blasts us into a total social collapse before we finally realize these things, but even if so, it ultimately does believe that it's possible. It's really these moments that keep me coming back to the classic Trek oeuvre, the little hints here and there that the future can truly be a better place, not just more of the same.
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Aug 9, 2022 21:46
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zoux posted:You'd have to give me examples for Riker, XO is a really tough position on a show because they're basically The Captain Jr. and Riker only works because Frakes rules. The XO is in charge of personnel matters like job assignments, promotions, and discipline. I think that those are things that don't get used enough for plots. For instance, Lower Decks used Riker's involvement in the first two for plot purposes. As far as discipline goes, though, it seems the writers can never resist having the Captain chew people out and hand out punishments.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:07
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https://twitter.com/alexsteacy/status/1556381939803627521?s=20&t=amTFwXuzykp5DqCDZ0DvFA
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Aug 9, 2022 22:13
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BattleMaster posted:The XO is in charge of personnel matters like job assignments, promotions, and discipline. I think that those are things that don't get used enough for plots. For instance, Lower Decks used Riker's involvement in the first two for plot purposes. As far as discipline goes, though, it seems the writers can never resist having the Captain chew people out and hand out punishments. Yeah. TOS didn't even have an XO after the pilot. I guess Kira was technically an XO but she was always doing Bajoran poo poo. Riker has some standout moments and we all love Frakes, but consider Chakotay. Robert Beltran is not as bad an actor as people say, but the material they gave him was absolute garbage. That second-in-command role is a tricky one to write stories for. If you're going to have an XO he needs to be the saltiest dude on the ship, and preferably a drunk, and even better: one-eyed.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:19
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I remember at least one (perhaps the one? lol) time Chakotay handled a personnel matter, and it was the time when some Maquis guy was all "we should do things the Maquis way!"; Chakotay knocks his rear end on the deck and says "that's the Maquis way too, dumbass" (or something to that effect, anyway). Which was a neat moment since it gave Robert Beltran something to do, but also further entrenches the Maquis as a bunch of ineffectual dipshits if they had to resort to physical beatings to keep people in line lol
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Aug 9, 2022 22:27
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zoux posted:Yeah. TOS didn't even have an XO after the pilot. I guess Kira was technically an XO but she was always doing Bajoran poo poo. Riker has some standout moments and we all love Frakes, but consider Chakotay. Robert Beltran is not as bad an actor as people say, but the material they gave him was absolute garbage. That second-in-command role is a tricky one to write stories for. Chakotay really should have have a long running feud with their ace pilot, Tom Paris, which only very slowly matures into a grudging respect
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Aug 9, 2022 22:30
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Tunicate posted:Just watch the actually good one, Lexx
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Aug 9, 2022 22:41
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zoux posted:Yeah. TOS didn't even have an XO after the pilot. Spock is the XO in TOS, along with Chief Science Officer. There are a few (although not many) where he talks to Kirk about crew matters, including a funny scene in Shore Leave where he tells Kirk that a crew member is overworked and refusing to take recreation time, leading to a deterioration of his performance and his relationship with other crew members, and, when Kirk gets mad at the unnamed crewman and orders Spock to make him take recreation, Spock tells him the person he's talking about or Kirk himself.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:44
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If we're comparing Voyager and Enterprise for the TV Wallpaper awards, Voyager wins hands down for me. Some of the characters are one-note voids (Chakotay, Kim, Kes) and others not nearly as interesting as the writers think they are (Neelix, Paris, Torres), but between Janeway, the Doctor, Seven and Tuvok you have a core group that are almost always at least entertaining to watch even in bad stories. Enterprise, though, was mostly nothingburger characters who on the odd occasion they were given anything to do were let down by the scripts, and the captain was a dislikeable uptight prick. Basically you were left with T'Pol and Tucker to carry things, and the way the show openly leered over Blalock was embarrassing even at the time and kinda creepy and grubby now. On a sidenote, it must have been a gut-punch for Connor Trineer to go from 'one of the series leads in a Star Trek show' to 'random security guard' in 24 or 'generic cop/fed/spook' in various acronymic procedurals in just a few years.
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Aug 9, 2022 22:46
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Ironically, Chakotay is a multi-note void. The writers literally didn't know what to do with him, so every couple episodes "I'd studied *scientific field of study related to weekly problem* at the academy", or "My people once spoke of *issue relate to weekly problem*" Dude was a historian, anthropologist, diplomat, geologist, boxer, pilot, chef, leader of a group of rebels, mechanic.... oh and I heard somewhere he was a native american of the tribe [insert here].
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Aug 9, 2022 22:54
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Hadokken
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Aug 9, 2022 22:57
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Burning_Monk posted:Troi is replaced by Marina Sirtis. They didn't go far enough. By First Contact she was drunk and surly, but that needed to come in season 6 or 7 really. The viewscreen shatters after Troi whips an empty liquor bottle at it. "Yurrr all feckin' bellends!!!!" she slurs, and cackles.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:12
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zoux posted:I was thinking about this the other day but the 3 instances in which major female cast members who normally wear space athleisure end up in uni's is a major upgrade. Troi, Seven and Kira all look so much better in regulation attire, Nana Visitor in the Best Uniforms when she got brevet commissioned into Starfleet at the end of season 7 is revelatory. I agree that when Kira has the federation uniform on she looks way better, and I don't just mean attractive exactly, it just looks cool - but I think this would apply for a lot of characters who you aren't used to seeing in uniform suddenly start wearing it. The uniforms just look good generally and you don't appreciate it with the main cast who are always either in them or some bizarre space orgy costume.
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Aug 9, 2022 23:33
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Bennifer (DS9 version)
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Aug 10, 2022 00:39
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roomtone posted:I agree that when Kira has the federation uniform on she looks way better, and I don't just mean attractive exactly, it just looks cool - but I think this would apply for a lot of characters who you aren't used to seeing in uniform suddenly start wearing it. The uniforms just look good generally and you don't appreciate it with the main cast who are always either in them or some bizarre space orgy costume. 
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Aug 10, 2022 00:48
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Even Neelix looks competent in a Starfleet uniform.
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Aug 10, 2022 01:28
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roomtone posted:I agree that when Kira has the federation uniform on she looks way better, and I don't just mean attractive exactly, it just looks cool - but I think this would apply for a lot of characters who you aren't used to seeing in uniform suddenly start wearing it. The uniforms just look good generally and you don't appreciate it with the main cast who are always either in them or some bizarre space orgy costume. It's a good theory but the flaw is that the non-uniform wearing crew member clothes were designed using the worst design ethos of the late 80s and entire 1990s.
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Aug 10, 2022 02:07
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Voyager had the same colour scheme as my public school in the mid 90s it was disconcerting even then
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Aug 10, 2022 02:34
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zoux posted:Lol Diana Muldaur is in that Majel Barrett as well.
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Aug 10, 2022 03:04
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Brawnfire posted:The viewscreen shatters after Troi whips an empty liquor bottle at it. "Yurrr all feckin' bellends!!!!" she slurs, and cackles. Somehow I see her as....ok so imagine if on The Inbetweeners, Jay's dad had a sister that showed up in one episode as Jay's Crazy Drunk Aunt.
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Aug 10, 2022 03:16
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Well my marathon of DS9 has ended and honestly I've warmed up to What We Leave Behind as a series ender because it doesn't wrap everything up in a neat bow, its a real bittersweet ending of a series and I think its interesting that it ends the way it does. I have decided my next marathon show will be... The Next Generation
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Aug 10, 2022 03:30
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roomtone posted:I agree that when Kira has the federation uniform on she looks way better, and I don't just mean attractive exactly, it just looks cool - but I think this would apply for a lot of characters who you aren't used to seeing in uniform suddenly start wearing it. The uniforms just look good generally and you don't appreciate it with the main cast who are always either in them or some bizarre space orgy costume. It even worked for Wesley in Yesterday’s Enterprise. And the cadet unis, but I think those unis are badass anyway, Sito Jaxa and Detective No. 27 posted:It's a good theory but the flaw is that the non-uniform wearing crew member clothes were designed using the worst design ethos of the late 80s and entire 1990s. We call this ensemble “Salmon Sunrise”
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Aug 10, 2022 03:39
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NikkolasKing posted:For example, I mentioned earlier I watched random Trek stuff on SyFy forever ago. I remember a weird TOS episode with them at some space mine thing with an alien and they were trying to stop it and get profits back on track or something. (Sorry it's been a while.) Anyway, I then saw some TNG movies where Picard flatly says money just doesn't really exist in the Federation. I asked about these two things which seemed contradictory and was told the Federation's economy is totally inconsistent. At least part of that probably comes down to TOS being produced in the late 60s and TNG being produced in the late 80s/early 90s, and also part of that would likely come from TOS being sold to the NBC network while TNG was sold as first-run syndication (i.e. sold directly to the myriad individual TV stations across the country). David Gerrold recounted in his book about the making of The Trouble With Tribbles that one of the early drafts had the antagonist as some big corporation - and he got back a note from producer Gene Coon saying "big business can't be the bad guy." I'm guessing Gene Coon knew that was something that wouldn't fly with NBC. I think starting with TNG, Trek is relatively consistent about there being no money in the Federation. The only two contrary examples that come readily to mind are a throwaway line in second season TNG Measure of a Man where Captain Phillipa Louvoir tells Picard "Call me. You can buy me dinner.", and an background graphic nearly illegible even at high-def in third season's The Price that lists a number of 'Federation Credits' as part of the Federation's offer for access to the Barzan Wormhole. Of course, money is just part of how an economy functions, and none of Trek even comes close to offering any sort of model or explanation as to how the Federation's economy works. Which, to my mind, is just fine; it's not like the warp drive is any more meaningfully explained on the show. Yes yes, we get technobabble about warp fields and subspace and dilithium crystals, but is that really any more useful an explanation than "people work to better themselves"?
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Aug 10, 2022 06:37
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Jake being unable to explain it satisfactorily to Nog is the best explanation we ever got.
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Aug 10, 2022 07:57
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I'm honestly glad they're vague on it, because I don't think they'd be able to satisfactorily design and depict such a system in depth without making the show about it and that's not what the show should be about.
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Aug 10, 2022 09:42
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Everyone on DS9 would look better in a Starfleet uniform because the Bajoran uniforms look like big adult onesies and I can't take them seriously. There, I said it.
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Aug 10, 2022 11:47
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MikeJF posted:I'm honestly glad they're vague on it, because I don't think they'd be able to satisfactorily design and depict such a system in depth without making the show about it and that's not what the show should be about. This is true, but I've also sort of settled on "Earth basically doesn't have money anymore, but maybe Starfleet kind of does" A human still wouldn't join Starfleet to "get rich" because that wouldn't even help them at all back on Earth. But other planets, even within the Federation, may still have something like that. They certainly never go deep enough into it to rule that out, I think.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:34
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some kinda jackal posted:Everyone on DS9 would look better in a Starfleet uniform because the Bajoran uniforms look like big adult onesies and I can't take them seriously. Kira's uniform (and hair) got better after they got rid of the integrated shoulder pads. And then again, on both counts, when they put her in a Starfleet uniform.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:11
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Sir Lemming posted:This is true, but I've also sort of settled on "Earth basically doesn't have money anymore, but maybe Starfleet kind of does" A lot of it comes down to replicators, right? The reason money exists is as a standard agreed method of exchange for goods and services. But if everyone has a magic box that will give them anything they want whenever they want it, a lot of money's use goes out the window. People don't need to exchange goods anymore.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:37
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The key scarcity of the Federation is Dilithium (I'm assuming they another essentially free energy source to run everything else but FTL drives)
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Aug 10, 2022 14:19
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Antimatter/Dilithium isn't actually an energy source, it takes as much energy to make as it releases on reaction. It's just the only way to store and produce energy at a high enough density to use as starship fuel. It gets produced in systems, where energy is plentiful; the main ways for really mass energy production we've heard about in trek are lots of fusion, huge-scale geothermal tapping, and solar energy (probably power satellites close to the sun). Stations and smaller-scale power generation needs in system are fusion.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 14:25
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Burning_Monk posted:We are forgetting Roddenberry's magnum opus... Earth: Final Conflict Honestly, Earth Final Conflict might have been decent if the lead didn't quit after the first season.
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Aug 10, 2022 15:05
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Remember how Spock said that "Vulcan has no moon", but the theatrical cut of TMP showed Vulcan's sky positively filled with moony things? The graphics nerds on SNW have squared that circle and made both facts technically correct - the best kind of correct! https://twitter.com/timothypeel1/status/1557360278773325824?s=20&t=au8buB2P0im3x-aCRenGVg (Check the 4th picture. Of course, now there will have to be new arguments about how come T'khut was always conveniently out of frame whenever we saw Vulcan in the past.)
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Aug 10, 2022 15:19
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Vulcan has no moon. Vulcan needs no moon.
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Aug 10, 2022 15:58
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It's been 'Vulcan is part of a double planet system' for a long time, and I think they named it T'Khut back in Star Charts in 2002? It might've predated that in novels. Anyway the new trek productions are using Star Charts as their sources for all their maps and stuff, although they do quite often leave in things that shouldn't exist yet in Disco 1/2 and SNW. That said this'd be the first canonisation of the Vulcan Double Planet thing. The fact that the circular part of the astrogator is positioned so that nobody can see it really bugs me. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 16:01
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