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I started searching for new job couple of weeks ago and I managed pass all stages and negotiate pretty nice package in corporate world for Senior Developer position. But one thing is bothering me. They want references, but only after I started working in new company. I asked them if we can solve references before signing the contract but they kept insisting it should be done after start date. I replied that I would prefer clear all requirements before signing the contract after which they finally agreed we can do them before signing contract. I asked them in which way would they like the reference (Email, LinkedIn, phone call), to which they replied "Just attach it to this email". Now, the person who im talking to is not from HR, but its internal company recruiter, so I don't know if actual HR will consider reference copied to email valid and asking for reference after contract signing is rubbing me in wrong way (I honestly don't know why). Now the reason why I want to solve references before signing contract: I'm going to leave in middle of complex project, with no replacement (at least not in time frame for project) and couple of management guys will/might lose part of their bonuses. Similar situation happened in past with another guy who left in middle of project, and management held enough spite to screw with his security clearance for other job. So I want to give them contact info to guys I worked in past, so I don't risk "no comment" or negative reference. Am I overthinking it or should I just roll with it? By the way, this is in Europe in case it matters.
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Aug 10, 2022 12:15
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| # ? May 15, 2024 05:42 |
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How would references after signing the contract work? One of your references said they don't like you, so the contract is void?
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Aug 10, 2022 12:46
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SEKCobra posted:How would references after signing the contract work? One of your references said they don't like you, so the contract is void? Thats my main cause of concern x.x
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Aug 10, 2022 12:58
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That's just a matter of reading the contract. If they would seriously try to put "$COMPANY reserves the right to unilaterally terminate this contract if we get a negative reference" I can only imagine what other poo poo might be in there. That is overall such a bizarre thing to do that I don't even know what to make of it.
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Aug 10, 2022 13:15
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Failbaddon posted:So I want to give them contact info to guys I worked in past, so I don't risk "no comment" or negative reference. that's all you gotta do bro
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Aug 10, 2022 16:08
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Eric the Mauve posted:That's just a matter of reading the contract. If they would seriously try to put "$COMPANY reserves the right to unilaterally terminate this contract if we get a negative reference" I can only imagine what other poo poo might be in there. Yeah, it's either a "rando HR drone wants references so we have to check the box we don't care" to "We want an easy out so we can ignore a contract when we feel like it". Given the current labor market I feel like the latter is unlikely but no idea.
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Aug 10, 2022 16:25
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Failbaddon posted:Now the reason why I want to solve references before signing contract: I'm going to leave in middle of complex project, with no replacement (at least not in time frame for project) and couple of management guys will/might lose part of their bonuses. "I'm going to ditch them in the middle of the project, so I know they're going to be super mad and blacklist me. So I want to give them my references before I'm hired, and then they'll...be chill when I quit?"
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Aug 10, 2022 16:51
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i like nice words
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Asymmetric POSTer posted:that's all you gotta do bro Hard to do it if they contact my company directly. Anne Whateley posted:This is even more confusing to me. No, I never intended to give anyone related to project as reference, nor do I plan to ask people who might hold grudge against me give me reference. I have already talked to some people who know about my plans and they have agreed to be my reference.
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Aug 10, 2022 17:16
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If you're planning to leave the new company in the middle of a project, why would their reaction be any different because of your references before getting hired?
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Aug 10, 2022 18:10
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Anne Whateley posted:If you're planning to leave the new company in the middle of a project, why would their reaction be any different because of your references before getting hired? I think what they're saying is they're leaving their old company in the middle of a project for this new company. Since they're doing a bit of bridge burning, they want to make sure the new job is a sure thing. If the new company doesn't check references until after the contract is signed, OP is afraid something in the references (unrelated to current job) will cause them to back out, and then OP has to find another job with a now pissed-off previous employer. At least I think that's what's happening? Personally I think leaving in the middle of a big project is fine and you don't owe your current employer. If they want to make sure you stay to see the project through, they should offer a retention bonus.
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Aug 10, 2022 18:19
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yeah i guess if you're not getting references from any immediate people involved in your current project who cares?
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Aug 10, 2022 18:20
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Failbaddon posted:Hard to do it if they contact my company directly. I think you’re vastly overestimating the amount of effort some corporate drone (or an outsourced corporate drone) is going to put into a reference check, this isn’t a government security clearance investigation. They’ll just call who you give them, reference checks are just to make sure you didn’t blatantly lie about your experience They might not even call at all
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Aug 10, 2022 18:36
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Erwin posted:I think what they're saying is they're leaving their old company in the middle of a project for this new company. Since they're doing a bit of bridge burning, they want to make sure the new job is a sure thing. If the new company doesn't check references until after the contract is signed, OP is afraid something in the references (unrelated to current job) will cause them to back out, and then OP has to find another job with a now pissed-off previous employer. Thats exactly it. Thanks guys, this puts my mind at ease a bit, but Im still gonna think about it a bit. EDIT: I would also not like them to call now pissed off current employer directly as well Failbaddon fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 18:53
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I usually just don't put anyone from my current company as a reference unless they're a trusted person who qualifies as "a friend outside of work" (or close to it). For example, I had a manager at a previous job that I knew outside of work before I even had that job. At one point she actively told me that she'd help me find other jobs if I wanted because the execs had gotten really stingy with pay lately (startup). I used her as a reference and it was fine, but I'd never put someone who was just a coworker/manager from my current job as a reference without knowing they were trustworthy (which to me means "if I don't have an outside-of-work relationship with them, they are not trustworthy").
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Aug 10, 2022 20:19
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m0therfux0r posted:I usually just don't put anyone from my current company as a reference unless they're a trusted person who qualifies as "a friend outside of work" (or close to it). The issue for me is this sentence in formal offer: quote:...and your employment will be conditional upon successful reference checks (two professional references from former employers will be required), successful medical checks, and you...
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Aug 10, 2022 20:40
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that seems like very standard reference check text; what makes you think that they will contact your current employer if you have specifically asked them not to and you have not included them as a reference?
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Aug 10, 2022 20:59
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I would be completely fine with them asking me for references before signing the contract. The issue is this happens after I sign the contract. The second issue is wording of text. If it said two professional references required, I could give them the previous manager or coworker. But their version adds additional words "from employer" which to me indicates they would like to contact my current employer directly (who at this point would be less than pleased about me leaving). I tried getting more info from the recruiter about this, but he is dodging the question. I may be overthinking this, but then again I might lose my new job in the first month as well if they contact my current employer and he sees this as a way to punish me.
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Aug 10, 2022 21:21
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For what it's worth my reading of that language matches yours and I have the same concerns you do, beginning with "what the gently caress is this". The recruiter is "dodging the question"??? They need to answer the question super clearly or I wouldn't sign on with them. That language makes me leery that giving themselves an out to unilaterally terminate the contract at any time is exactly what they're doing here. Who in the gently caress wants references from your previous employer, who has reason to resent your having left and lots of managers are lovely, vindictive people, and makes the job conditional on positive such references after you've started the job? What the gently caress??? You need to have a "is this just HR box checking or are you actually trying to make my job here conditional on a positive reference from the employer I just left AFTER I start here?, no don't change the loving subject answer the question" conversation with them, yesterday. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Aug 10, 2022 |
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Aug 10, 2022 21:25
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You do realize that “HR” includes things like Payroll, recruiters, immigration, organization etc. When a recruiter tells you he wants references AFTER that’s sketchy af
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Aug 10, 2022 22:40
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Failbaddon posted:I tried getting more info from the recruiter about this, but he is dodging the question.
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Aug 11, 2022 01:27
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I've said it before in this thread, this is why I collect written references from previous employers and horde them for future use. What this? You need two professional references? Sure here is one from when I was a paperboy..... Also you know exactly what those slimy bastards will say in advance - no I don't give phone numbers ever.
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Aug 11, 2022 13:12
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In the modern world, can you just refer people to the 'Recommendations' on your LinkedIn page? I just wrote a few for my fellow employees, some of whom kindly reciprocated. However, I have no earthly idea if anyone actually uses that feature.
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Aug 11, 2022 13:41
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Failbaddon posted:The issue for me is this sentence in formal offer: I read this as the opposite. You're actually talking to the company, so you have more info than me, but in my personal experience "former employer" would mean anywhere I've worked for before. On applications/during the hiring process I'm used to the job I'm leaving being referred to as my "current employer". Again, might be splitting hairs here, I'm just saying if I read that sentence you pointed out I would in no way think they were demanding a reference from the job I'm currently about to leave. I would proceed with giving references from two former jobs that aren't the one I'm about to leave.
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Aug 11, 2022 14:46
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deported to Canada posted:I've said it before in this thread, this is why I collect written references from previous employers and horde them for future use. What this? You need two professional references? Sure here is one from when I was a paperboy.....
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Aug 11, 2022 15:02
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They probably mean any former employer. I'd tell them they need to finish that before I agree to anything first if my offer is contingent on it.
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Aug 11, 2022 17:46
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That's not any less weird because for a lot of people "two former employers but not the one you just left" means you're going back a decade or more in which case how the gently caress can it even matter. Some bizarre poo poo.
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Aug 11, 2022 18:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:That's not any less weird because for a lot of people "two former employers but not the one you just left" means you're going back a decade or more in which case how the gently caress can it even matter. Some bizarre poo poo. I don't think it's excluding the one you just left, I think it just means you don't need to use the one you just left.
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Aug 11, 2022 19:24
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Okay. Sure. It's not material to the issue, which is that making your employment conditional on getting positive references from multiple previous employers after you've already terminated your previous employment and started working for them is outrageously weird and totally unacceptable.
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Aug 11, 2022 19:50
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Employment in the US is typically at-will anyway. If they want to get rid of you you're going to get gone.
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Aug 11, 2022 19:56
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OP said a contract is involved so I assume it's not the US, or is some super specific industry where there are employment contracts
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Aug 11, 2022 20:05
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pretty sure OP said they were in Europe
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Aug 11, 2022 20:15
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Eric the Mauve posted:Okay. Sure. It's not material to the issue, which is that making your employment conditional on getting positive references from multiple previous employers after you've already terminated your previous employment and started working for them is outrageously weird and totally unacceptable. Sometimes I forget that people might have been in a job for a long-rear end time. I'm so used to people working for like 2-5 years places and then moving on. Yeah, reaching back like 15 years would probably be weird. It also might not be if you keep in contact with that person (especially if you've only changed employers but not industry), but it depends.
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Aug 11, 2022 21:20
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Quick update on my situation - I got the moving extension without any issues! My Dad was impressed, he said that I had balls to not just accept it, but I figured (and still figure) that I do kinda need the time to settle all my affairs here. Definitely exciting stuff!Anne Whateley posted:Moving in NYC happens really fast. Like if you did get them to extend it to 8 weeks, you won't find any October apartments listed yet anyway. I mean you could use the additional time to pack on your end, but finding an apartment is almost always within a month of the moving date here, so be prepared for that. Thank you again for your post, it really did help! I just wanted to focus on it a little bit because family/friends I have in the city disagreed with this and said that October apartments were already being listed, and I'm not entirely sure if that's the case because I haven't seen any. It's a bit outside the purview of the thread, so I'm gonna keep asking/checking around, but seriously, thank you all so much! At best, I have time to get everything set and relax a bit before starting, and if worst comes to worst, well, I'm in a much better spot to get everything worked out.
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Aug 11, 2022 23:44
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I heard an interesting piece of advice today: being with a company roughly 10 years makes you nearly unhirable in the open market. Is this true? Not me, obviously, but an interesting component for BATNA, I guess?
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Aug 12, 2022 06:02
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I think it's either horseshit or extremely company/field specific. 1) Don't job-hop because employers don't like job hoppers, but don't stay anywhere either because they don't like people to stay in jobs? So what's the magical sweet spot these advice-givers think is a reasonable amount of time to stay at a job? 2) If you're working at a well-respected company in your field and progressing your career, who wouldn't want to steal you away from them? 3) There are skilled roles that benefit from more years of experience, where it doesn't matter where those years were, necessarily. Equipment operators in my field, for one - I'd kill for some 10+year veteran operators in my department right now, and if I could lure them away from other companies, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Aug 12, 2022 08:29
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Sundae posted:I think it's either horseshit or extremely company/field specific. in silicon valley it's supposedly exactly 2 years 😛
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Aug 12, 2022 09:33
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I heard an interesting piece of advice today: being with a company roughly 10 years makes you nearly unhirable in the open market. Is this true? Not me, obviously, but an interesting component for BATNA, I guess? Yeah this is stupid. Staying that long is probably non-optimal for most jobs unless you're making some big steps/switches. But someone who has stuck around for a long time at one job is almost always a positive whenever I've interviewed and other interviewers also almost always see it that way. 10 years in the same role with no promotions? That's probably bad, though depends on the role I guess. Like a union railway worker probably has the same job that long.
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Aug 12, 2022 13:42
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Lockback posted:
I'd agree with this and I'm certainly mindful of it in my own life, I think it reflects on the changes in employment over the last 50 years - there are no jobs for life anymore! You don't leave school, line up a job and work your way up to the boss over a lifetime. That poo poo happened for my parents but not for me. These days it's all transactional baby and the moment one of us doesn't meet the others business needs then the relationship is over. With that being said the same role for 10 years with no promotion or movement tells me you lack ambition and are happy to just be what you are in life - which is fine of course, each to their own, but it isn't a quality I would want to see in a self starting go getter if you catch my drift. For me, move often and don't get comfortable is better than blind loyalty and lack of drive.
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Aug 12, 2022 13:58
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I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I'm currently in a job that pays *very* well for my job title/duties (and that would likely be the case most places in the country aside from NYC or the bay area). I've been here for a little over 4 years. There's basically one step up I could take at some point promotion-wise, but then after that I'd basically be required to move into a management role to get any significant pay increase (here or at any other company) because I've looked around and almost everything with a similar job title/function to my current role that exists outside of this company is a pay cut. I reaaaally never want to manage anyone and my current work/life balance is the best I've ever had, so it'd be tough for me to move on unless it was for crazy money that I'm probably not gonna get. But then I do worry about staying in a role too long and stagnating (though at least I do have a track to one sort of promotion eventually). Worried it'll bite me in the rear end like 20 years down the line but I also don't want to give up what I have. Though I guess if I'm paid enough and happy then it might not matter- still a gamble to count on things staying the same here for that long though.
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Aug 12, 2022 14:17
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i think sundae hit the nail on the head. it's really job-dependent. if i'm hiring like, a mechanic or a equipment operator, frequent job hopping would probably indicate that the person is at best a little mercenary (not necessarily a bad thing), and at worst that they are actually incompetent.
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Aug 12, 2022 14:21
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