|
Niavmai posted:i dont think so. would sorta undermine the stated concept of complete invulnerability. the most they were ever able to do was delay and contain him. that's kinda the point. he won't ever be defeated by strength. Our favorite multi-armed fellow had been forced to his knees in his limited time war form's limit break talking about how sad it was that Gog couldn't see how awesome his point was. Ironically enough, despite their strength potentially matching or surpassing Jagganoth's, it still didn't matter because it alone wasn't the answer to the problem. Niavmai posted:again, the core theme of the comic is that strength cannot solve every problem. the entire point is that there has been an infinite number of gokus thrown at him in every previous iteration, and still he comes out victorious. it's antithetical to the stated concepts in the comic to even consider that they could have won. Zoss explicitly could win against Jagganoth. The point of the comic is that strength cannot solve every problem, not that Jagganoth is the strongest character in the setting!
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 04:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:01 |
|
|
Oxxidation posted:well, except for gog. her weak point is the non-human the... worman
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 04:54
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:well, except for gog. her weak point is the non-human worms don't care about feelings but Gog does.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 07:42
|
|
|
In the previous cycles, they didn't have enough Gokus to beat Jagganoth, but one key difference in those cases is that the heir killed all the Gokus before the big showdown with Jagganoth. I think that there is a finite number of Gokus which would be sufficient to subdue Jagganoth by force. However, he is still the endpoint of what can be accomplished by strength alone. All those Gokus could work together to beat the strongest guy, but beyond that, the most they could do with their combined strength is what strength can do - and the most that strength can do is turn a lot of people into corpses, which is what a victorious Jagganoth would already do to the greatest extent possible. So when it is said that strength cannot solve a problem like Jagganoth, it doesn't mean that no amount of strength could defeat him, but rather that using strength to defeat him does not solve the problem that he personifies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 08:04
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:it occurs to me that Metatron must love Jadis' worldview I'd go so far as to say in some form Metatron is that same inevitability Jadis is talking about. Dammerung posted:Zoss explicitly could win against Jagganoth. I don't remember this being stated anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 08:29
|
|
|
I believe Operant said at one point that Zoss could defeat the Seven barely trying, he's beyond their ideas of power and fighting. Whether or not he could kill him is another matter because the immortality is a gift from Metatron, but he could certainly wipe the floor with him and imprison him. But Zoss is currently fighting to prevent the wheel from turning towards ruin, not to just beat up the Seven. He's battling the inevitable tide of history. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 09:16
|
|
|
In a way Zoss is doing the same thing Solomon was doing, trying to find a successor so he can finally gently caress off and do whatever he likes with no responsibility. The difference being that Zoss can see his candidate in action before rewinding time and trying again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 13:28
|
|
|
nimby posted:In a way Zoss is doing the same thing Solomon was doing, trying to find a successor so he can finally gently caress off and do whatever he likes with no responsibility. The difference being that Zoss can see his candidate in action before rewinding time and trying again. Maybe, but I get the impression with him it's less that he wants to gently caress off and not have responsibility, and more that he's realised that he's incapable of solving this himself. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 13:31
|
|
|
Buschmaki posted:Nihilist? Allison's fighting the guy from kotor 2...? 0___o She's fighting the dread Jobu Tupaki.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 13:46
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:none claimed omnipotence? certainly not in the traditional sense. Oh my god I was being flowery, I don't think Jagg is actually invulnerable, just really really really really resistant.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 14:11
|
|
|
I think he is actually invulnerable
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 17:14
|
|
|
His invulnerability is a status effect that can be removed with the right action
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 17:16
|
|
|
You can only cast the giga-dispel ninefold-art when all of your party members are in full synch. See it was allisons fault she spent her time grinding instead of doing the other demiurges social links
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 17:24
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Maybe, but I get the impression with him it's less that he wants to gently caress off and not have responsibility, and more that he's realised that he's incapable of solving this himself. imo he has utterly, utterly failed if that was his intent. no, he's doing the same thing he's always done - his first (?) attempt was to personally fix break whatever the wheel and he realized he absolutely can't do that for whatever literal or metaphysical reason, which imo we haven't yet seen. he's presented it as a metaphysical one, he who masters the wheel cannot break it etc, but it may be something more literal - maybe it involves doing something he absolutely refuses to allow happen. so he starts setting up the heirs and the time cycle, who are ultimately proxies to achieve whatever outcome he desires but cannot cause. we have absolutely no idea what happens at the cycle moment - maybe zoss has to kill the heir to revert the cycle and has some motivation to keep spinning the wheel, like he failed to achieve the thing he wants or maybe that his heir is unworthy or some other evil reason. but this doesn't get around the paradox, if the guy who masters the wheel can break it by getting some rando to do it they're still causing that outcome. that's why imo zoss and alison have to come into conflict somehow - alison will want to do something zoss does not or vice versa, which means that the master of the wheel and the person who would break it must be in opposition.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
Dammerung posted:Our favorite multi-armed fellow had been forced to his knees in his limited time war form's limit break talking about how sad it was that Gog couldn't see how awesome his point was. Ironically enough, despite their strength potentially matching or surpassing Jagganoth's, it still didn't matter because it alone wasn't the answer to the problem. he was forced to his knees. they didn't do any damage to him, and there was no hint that he was actually on the verge of defeat. it also doesn't say that his war form is time limited, i'm not sure where you got that from, nor was he in that form while gog is present. he was also sad that allison couldn't see how awesome his point was, that's his whole deal, he's the thinker, he tries the easy way with words first. i also do not recall it being said anywhere that zoss could defeat him. jagganoth is both the literal and metaphorical embodiment of the end of reality, if zoss could defeat him directly, why would he be turning the wheel back? why would he have done it the first time? this comic has a habit of saying exactly what it means. when it says he is invulernable to all harm, i believe it. there is no reason to think "well actually, under the right conditions, this particular strong guy could totally just win with strength." it is antithetical. Who What Now posted:Oh my god I was being flowery, I don't think Jagg is actually invulnerable, just really really really really resistant. but that's wrong, he literally is invulnerable. your words seem to conflict with themselves. invulnerability is not akin to omnipotency, and your initial point was "they were lying about their powers," which once again, not one of them has done so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
i mean he's literally not invulnerable in the text given we know he experiences pain when injured. his physical body can't be destroyed but presumably he could be rendered catatonic by infinite pain or something.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:29
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:i mean he's literally not invulnerable in the text given we know he experiences pain when injured. his physical body can't be destroyed but presumably he could be rendered catatonic by infinite pain or something. he ate a PERISH from the most powerful black art wielder in the universe without flinching. i say once again, he is invulnerable. the comic has explicitly stated so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
how does that demonstrate anything other than "his mcguffin was stronger", ki, karate energy, mana, essence whatever. we don't know that is even painful - now to contrast, explicitly in the text we are told that he is behaving like he experiences pain (which is harm).
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:34
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:how does that demonstrate anything other than "his mcguffin was stronger", ki, karate energy, mana, essence whatever. we don't know that is even painful - now to contrast, explicitly in the text we are told that he is behaving like he experiences pain (which is harm). pain is not harm. they are not interchangable. he feels every bit of the pain, and his body remains intact. that's his schtick. hurt him all you want, he feels every bit of it, it does not cause him damage. i felt that the comic communicated this very clearly. he is untouchable. probably because it's not as easy as "just pull them out" or it would have been done already. vvvvv Niavmai fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:37
|
|
|
He's invulnerable because he fashioned feathers from Metatron into nails and then hammered them into his body, so it stands yo reason you'd just need to be fast enough and strong enough to pull em out. Though Solomon David is fast as gently caress and he didn't even bother
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:44
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:pain is not harm. they are not interchangable. he feels every bit of the pain, and his body remains intact. that's his schtick. hurt him all you want, he feels every bit of it, it does not cause him damage. i felt that the comic communicated this very clearly. he is untouchable. which is also a large part of why he's unbeatable, because as white chain observes, he's able to bear the psychological burden of combat as well. you can't just give him owies until he surrenders from sheer attrition, he has pain tolerance enough to outfight the universe
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:44
|
|
|
how on earth is pain not in the set of harm is this some mind body dualism poo poo lol. pain is a physiological reaction, if i had a drug that had no effect other than racking anguishing full body pain i feel giving it to other people would be harmful. it would meet the criteria for harm. wtf.Oxxidation posted:which is also a large part of why he's unbeatable, because as white chain observes, he's able to bear the psychological burden of combat as well. you can't just give him owies until he surrenders from sheer attrition, he has pain tolerance enough to outfight the universe that he's singleminded and loving crazy in this way is irrelevant. he would have these personal qualities regardless of if he was indestructible or not, it's just more convenient this way. i'm really trying not to get into the arguing about the dictionary definition of words here but i strongly strongly disagree you are supposed to take all the descriptive text like this completely literally; eg:  which describes something we know didn't happen and is in fact literally not happening, in this set of panels.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:56
|
|
|
nimby posted:In a way Zoss is doing the same thing Solomon was doing, trying to find a successor so he can finally gently caress off and do whatever he likes with no responsibility. The difference being that Zoss can see his candidate in action before rewinding time and trying again. MikeJF posted:Maybe, but I get the impression with him it's less that he wants to gently caress off and not have responsibility, and more that he's realised that he's incapable of solving this himself. The reason Zoss struggles is that he is on the path to royalty, and has not yet achieved it. We can compare him to vivec, who has fully achieved CHIM. What holds him back is he still remains attached to this world, unlike Vivek who has shown he can and will completely gently caress off if things aren't pleasing to him. It is this attachment that shows how far he has to go to achieving true royalty A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:00
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:how on earth is pain not in the set of harm is this some mind body dualism poo poo lol. pain is a physiological reaction, if i had a drug that had no effect other than racking anguishing full body pain i feel giving it to other people would be harmful. it would meet the criteria for harm. wtf. I agree. It's completely ridiculous. No one can simply sunder the veil of willpower through sheer willpower, and everyone sane knows that there aren't any horse dragons walking around acting like weird butlers. This whole story is ridiculous and I demand a full refund!
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:03
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:how on earth is pain not in the set of harm is this some mind body dualism poo poo lol. pain is a physiological reaction, if i had a drug that had no effect other than racking anguishing full body pain i feel giving it to other people would be harmful. it would meet the criteria for harm. wtf. 'harm' is defined as physical injury. there can be pain without injury. when i drink cold water my teeth hurt. did the water harm me? it is a simple and direct response to input from your nerves, and sometimes they are wrong. in this case, all of the pain he feels is wrong. CoolCab posted:that he's singleminded and loving crazy in this way is irrelevant. he would have these personal qualities regardless of if he was indestructible or not, it's just more convenient this way. i'm really trying not to get into the arguing about the dictionary definition of words here but i strongly strongly disagree you are supposed to take all the descriptive text like this completely literally; eg: there's a clear difference between the intentionally embellished and artistic (men and horses, 108 stars, etc), and the in-universe stated facts. the stated fact is that he has been through an uncountable number of spins of the wheel, and comes out victorious every time. once again, if zoss could just punch him real good and win, why would he not have done it already? Niavmai fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:05
|
|
|
I can't find the original source of this other than, sigh, tvtropes, but I believe that Abby has stated that "even YISUN would not be capable of harming Jagganoth". at the very least I have been able to find one thing Abbadon has said: ""Nah, this is a straight up invulnerability deal. He cannot be killed or harmed" which seems pretty clearcut.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:24
|
|
|
a computing pun posted:I can't find the original source of this other than, sigh, tvtropes, but I believe that Abby has stated that "even YISUN would not be capable of harming Jagganoth". this makes absolutely no sense. yisun is the omnipotent, they literally are all of existence. the secret name is "I" because you, me, that rock over there, because everything, in the most literal sense, IS yisun.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:32
|
|
|
i strongly disagree with your read of the existing text, imo. it is entirely possible zoss literally can one punch him, or maybe could if he still had his heir power or some other reason. i have no idea, legit i am not confident making assumptions about that motherfucker. we do not know his motivations except what has been stated with the huge caveat that he's been less than completely honest or truthful with alison and allegedly is working with metatron - the guy who allegedly gave jagg invulnerability btw (putting aside the pain thing because i am, again, not dictionary arguing with you, if metatron can negate it in any way jagg was never invulnerable btw). we have no idea what the end of a loop looks like nor whatever criteria zoss seems to apply to reset time. i think my current read is that uh blue ghost witch knows but doesn't seem enormously forthcoming at this point for whatever reason. or looking at the wording here: he doesn't even know himself he's just gradually developed an awareness. he is explicitly an unreliable narrator by his own admission he doesn't know poo poo he's making reasonable assumptions. maybe jagg can only and can only finish clearing up the universe when zoss jumps (?) back and it's a timeline thing, i don't think so. we also know in a sense "it all ends in me" is not correct given it has thus far not ended - if it's not a timeline thing and the whole universe getting reset completely it's zoss ending it not him, jagg has yet to end poo poo. now, i think it's fair to say jagg's ultimate plan - end creation and recreate it perfect - it seems like either must not happen or must i guess so radically fail that he perfectly recreates the existing universe, which would be funny but i don't think that's where the story goes. he wins against the heir each time but the heir also always fails so far, and zoss seems to think it's possible something else might and is desirable to happen. also i think the q and a paratext has been directly contradicted at least once. it might have been what operant originally intended in 2016, he also thought the comic would be finished a book ago.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:40
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:this makes absolutely no sense. yisun is the omnipotent, they literally are all of existence. the secret name is "I" because you, me, that rock over there, because everything, in the most literal sense, IS yisun. uh, it makes perfect sense? it just means that in the ksbd universe, god successfully created a rock so large that even they could not lift it. like all that means is: there's a thing in the universe that nothing else in the universe, even including every single other thing in the universe working together in tandem, can't harm. like even if Jagganoth himself worked, in concert and in perfect unison, with all other beings that exist in the universe, for ten or fifty or a million kalpa, on the undertaking of "harm jagganoth" they would not be able to. he's too unharmable. you can say that's not the case and call death of the author and say that the text of the comic disagrees with this, but at the very least i feel like you have to accept that authorial intent is that in the most literal sense jagganoth cannot be harmed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:40
|
|
|
a computing pun posted:uh, it makes perfect sense? it just means that in the ksbd universe, god successfully created a rock so large that even they could not lift it. that's fair, he is paradoxical. but the continuation to "could god make a hotdog so big that even he couldn't eat it?", is often "yes he could, and then proceed to eat it anyway." paradoxes work both ways, and neither way. thus my point is "it is completely irrelevant to even consider what omnipotence does or does not do."
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:44
|
|
|
Jaggs is invulnerable. That's it. That's all there is to it. There's no if's, and's, or but's. The plan all along was to bind him and toss him somewhere he can never escape from. That's why they made such a big deal that the initial binding still existed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:51
|
|
|
Who else is bound to Metatron exactly?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 20:21
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Who else is bound to Metatron exactly? There's at least one other, 6 Juggernaut Star Scours the Universe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 20:35
|
|
|
comic's gonna end with Zaid asking Allison out - the beginning, no moral
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 20:55
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:once again, if zoss could just punch him real good and win, why would he not have done it already? Because defeating Jagganoth is not his goal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 21:32
|
|
|
the whole predetermination thing is a joke in this universe anyway oh, you saw the universe? cool, good for you. there's forces steering and changing the wheel itself, so.... what gives, jadis? gonna pretend it's all predetermined despite being completely aware that Zoss stood astride that thing and that Metatron Lives?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 21:57
|
|
|
fucker is lying barefaced about "abloobloo what can you do" nah she should know better
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:the whole predetermination thing is a joke in this universe anyway Sort of. Right now there's an argument to be made that even all of that is still deterministic. Yes, Zoss resets the Wheel, but he was always going to do that. Is always going to do that. Is always doing that. What answer K6BD has to that, if any, is unclear at the moment. "Yes Jadis is factually correct about literally everything but we're just going to move on and shrug" is one answer. Allison superpowering her way through a fully deterministic universe is another. Neither seems overly satisfying but we will see.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:06
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:
Invulnerable people don't get swords stabbed into their breast. And yes, they have all lied or told half truths. Solomon and Mottom are not the god kings that they claim to be. Mammon is no king either, he is beyond broken before the comic even begins. Incubus is a rat both figuratively and nigh literally, Jadis is very obviously lying right now to Allison's face to try and get her to believe in Jadis's form of nihilistic existentialism. Allison has consistently uprooted every Demiurges' sense of self and suplexed it into the ground. But Jagganoth is definitely for real invulnerable this time, for sure. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:01 |
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Sort of. Right now there's an argument to be made that even all of that is still deterministic. Yes, Zoss resets the Wheel, but he was always going to do that. Is always going to do that. Is always doing that. I think that is the belief of the characters in the comic who are aware of the cycle, but that belief has already become false. Zoss didn't choose the boy this time, and he didn't spin the wheel back this time. Events have already changed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:43
|
|