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mobby_6kl posted:Should probably just tax ICE more instead but Unless you mean “above a certain value” this would be a hideously regressive tax.
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Aug 13, 2022 16:53
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Those people are gonna buy the EVs anyway. The pouty “fine I was gonna buy an EV but I’m going to buy an Escalade now” is a farce. You can tell because enough of them are paying ridiculous dealer markups anyway. Anyways there’s probably a better use of 7500 of tax money to help climate than getting a dentist to buy a taycan e2: I don’t think the old subsidy was evil, nothing is perfect and it helped jump start the industry. The new one isn’t perfect either. Such is policy. It’s amazing they loving passed anything honestly Infinotize fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 16:57
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When does the new credit go into effect?
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Aug 13, 2022 17:07
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I think as soon as it’s signed? It’s kinda confusing because the current credit does not last until EOY so probably a lot of people are gonna be buying stuff this year and getting stiffed. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136801_claim-the-7500-federal-ev-tax-credit-now-before-it-expires-for-2022
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Aug 13, 2022 17:11
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Infinotize posted:Those people are gonna buy the EVs anyway. The pouty “fine I was gonna buy an EV but I’m going to buy an Escalade now” is a farce. You can tell because enough of them are paying ridiculous dealer markups anyway. “They were going to send their kids to college anyway, why shouldn’t they pay for it!” There are far better ways to spend money to combat climate change even within the context of personal transportation like a massive investment in public transit and making large swaths of cities no car zones and the government directly investing in battery research rather than outsourcing it to the private sector so they can effectively monetize it and so on and so on…. But none of that is remotely possible and tax credits are and there’s no point in building in limits that will have absolutely no effect on anything other than making EVs slightly less attractive to well of buyers. The money saved is a tiny fraction of the overall budget and won’t be reallocated to anything else. It’s pure posturing.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:13
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Nobody needs a subsidy because nobody needs an EV. The subsidies exist to make EVs more attractive to buyers by closing some of the gap in cost between an EV and its gas based competitors, thus getting more EVs on the road to mitigate climate change. Whether the car in question costs 35k or 100k the purpose is the same, to provide some additional incentive to purchase the version that’s less terrible for the environment. Any government action to redistribute wealth upwards is inherently bad no matter what good it may also accomplish. The impact of a few hundred "dentists" as you put it buying an electric pickup instead of gas is negligible either way.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:47
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Why do the car price thresholds matter when no cars are going to be eligible because of the other requirements anyway? The CBO scoring estimates that only ~11k cars sold next year will be eligible for the new credit/subsidy/whatever it is. Seems like it’s pointless to bicker about the price ceiling when it doesn’t matter anyway.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:53
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Zauper posted:Why do the car price thresholds matter when no cars are going to be eligible because of the other requirements anyway? Agreed, this is the real issue.
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Aug 13, 2022 17:57
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So the new tax credit is a refundable credit?
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Aug 13, 2022 18:03
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mobby_6kl posted:Should probably just tax ICE more instead but My personal stance is to have anything that is not Euro5 or US equivalent taxed in draconian way. Like value of the car bad. Otherwise you will never remove those vehicles from the roads.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:00
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SlowBloke posted:My personal stance is to have anything that is not Euro5 or US equivalent taxed in draconian way. Like value of the car bad. Otherwise you will never remove those vehicles from the roads. You can pry my Euro2 1999 Miata from my cold, dead hands.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:09
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SlowBloke posted:My personal stance is to have anything that is not Euro5 or US equivalent taxed in draconian way. Like value of the car bad. Otherwise you will never remove those vehicles from the roads. Sounds like a super good way to simply keep a large proportion of the populace carless. You a millionaire, drive around in your 1982 Rolls all you want tho. The problem of all the old cars still on the road is why I think we still need to invest in renewable fuels for them to replace what we got even tho its not "as good" of a solution as getting everyone into EVs, cause they ain't going away for a long time unless we simply ban old/or ICE cars.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:43
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Zauper posted:Why do the car price thresholds matter when no cars are going to be eligible because of the other requirements anyway? The real goal is to incentivize manufacturers to make electric cars that are made with mostly American components with batteries that are assembled in America. It's an American manufacturing bill first and foremost, they want to kill two birds with one stone because a separate universal EV credit would never ever pass
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Aug 13, 2022 19:43
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Infinotize posted:Those people are gonna buy the EVs anyway. The pouty “fine I was gonna buy an EV but I’m going to buy an Escalade now” is a farce. You can tell because enough of them are paying ridiculous dealer markups anyway. Flat price cutoffs are a mess. The Scottish government used to offer a £3k grant and £25k of interest free credit (not means tested) on any EV under £35k, but that gets you a very nice Zoe, a mediocre Leaf or an absolutely bottom of the barrel short range Niro. Nothing I can put a family in, and nothing long ranged. 0% finance would have made a base model long range Enyaq affordable to me, but instead I bought a petrol Superb. I really wanted the Enyaq. If you want to means test your EV grants you need to find a way to subsidise low spec, larger, longer ranged vehicles for those who need them without paying for ventilated seats and panoramic moon roofs in small hatchbacks. The best argument for subsidies for all EVs though is to seed the second hand market. Luxury cars make up a disproportionate number of used cars because they tend to last longer, and the new features that make them expensive make them more attractive second hand as they trickle down to cheaper vehicles. Most of the MGs the UK government has been subsidising for the past year are going to rust apart minutes after their warranty expires.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:03
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Nidhg00670000 posted:Sounds like a super good way to simply keep a large proportion of the populace carless. You a millionaire, drive around in your 1982 Rolls all you want tho. A 2019 euro6 208 is 2800€(source https://www.autoscout24.it/annunci/peugeot-208-puretech-82-stop-start-5-porte-allure-benzina-grigio-1cb89b7c-e1bc-4f6d-b544-d74b402e04c8 ), which will get also a 1000€ clunker bonus discount if you scrap a old car. The fairy tale that making old cars more expensive will make poor people unable to get a modern one is nonsense. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 20:18
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SlowBloke posted:A 2019 euro6 208 is 2800€(source https://www.autoscout24.it/annunci/peugeot-208-puretech-82-stop-start-5-porte-allure-benzina-grigio-1cb89b7c-e1bc-4f6d-b544-d74b402e04c8 ), which will get also a 1000€ clunker bonus discount if you scrap a old car. The fairy tale that making old cars more expensive will make poor people unable to get a modern one is nonsense. Maybe I’ve lost the narrative somewhere, but you know the car you linked is totaled right 
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Aug 13, 2022 20:39
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One simple trick to save on gas!
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Aug 13, 2022 20:42
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That’ll buff right out
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Aug 13, 2022 20:42
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SlowBloke posted:A 2019 euro6 208 is 2800€(source https://www.autoscout24.it/annunci/peugeot-208-puretech-82-stop-start-5-porte-allure-benzina-grigio-1cb89b7c-e1bc-4f6d-b544-d74b402e04c8 ), which will get also a 1000€ clunker bonus discount if you scrap a old car. The fairy tale that making old cars more expensive will make poor people unable to get a modern one is nonsense. The solution to this problem is to make sure the person shopping for a 3+ year old car has the option of getting an EV that meets their needs, and the only way to make that happen is to convince as many people as possible buying a car right now to get an electric one, regardless of what it is or how much it costs. There are people who trade in one 10 year old ex-luxury Mercedes for another one every 5 years, and the best way to get them in an EV is to sell lots of luxury Mercedes right now, so in 10 years time they can have an electric one.
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Aug 13, 2022 20:48
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Any government action to redistribute wealth upwards is inherently bad no matter what good it may also accomplish. The impact of a few hundred "dentists" as you put it buying an electric pickup instead of gas is negligible either way. It’s not redistributing wealth because taxation is entirely divorced from spending. It’s just creating money out of thin air and using it to make EVs cheaper across the board. The only government programs that have a staying power in the US are non means tested. We don’t means test Medicare and Social Security and those are the two most popular government programs in America. It’s pointlessly complicated and antagonistic bill, at least if you view the purpose as increasing EV adoption across the board and not bolstering American manufacturing jobs.
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Aug 13, 2022 21:12
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Social Security is kind of reverse-means tested, since it has a cap on contributions. Food stamps are means tested and are as old as social security. They went away for a short time because the US food market was hosed by World War 2 breaking out, not because they were means tested
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Aug 13, 2022 21:35
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QuarkJets posted:Social Security is kind of reverse-means tested, since it has a cap on contributions. The food stamp program had its budget cut severely in the 80s, partially restored in the 90s before again being effectively cut due to being turned into block grants for the states which imposed stricter limits, and has been subject to all sorts of since then like the nonsensical restrictions on “hot food” and so on. “Welfare” programs, of which SNAP, TANF and WIC are basically the only ones remaining are constantly under fire because they are viewed as being for poor people and poor people deserve to be punished for poverty, otherwise how else will they learn not to be poor. The Trump administration attempted to tighten eligibility rules and kick hundreds of thousands off the food stamps roles and fought liberal states in court over their attempts to expand benefits during the pandemic. His proposed 2021 budget would have cut funding by 30%. Newt Gingrich derided Obama as the “food stamp president.” Food Stamps have been a political football since at least their modern incarnation as a free benefit in the 70s and they’re constantly being cut or in danger of being cut any conservatives take office. Edit: And yes, the yearly cap on social security taxes in a year is very stupid and should be done away with. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 21:57
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bird with big dick posted:Maybe I’ve lost the narrative somewhere, but you know the car you linked is totaled right It was a summary search during a restaurant outing, the first pic looked fine  Using a more accurate search criteria (aka not totaled while marking it as used, loving scamming dealer) and a computer with a screen big enough to show the whole pic gallery rises the price to 4000-6000€, which is a doable price for a low income family. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 22:02
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The food stamp program had its budget cut severely in the 80s, partially restored in the 90s before again being effectively cut due to being turned into block grants for the states which imposed stricter limits, and has been subject to all sorts of since then like the nonsensical restrictions on “hot food” and so on. “Welfare” programs, of which SNAP, TANF and WIC are basically the only ones remaining are constantly under fire because they are viewed as being for poor people and poor people deserve to be punished for poverty, otherwise how else will they learn not to be poor. Social Security faced cutbacks in the 80s and 90s, too. It seems that a lack of means testing didn't help
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Aug 13, 2022 22:21
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Gee I wonder why the two most "popular" govt programs also happen to be the ones that provide the most critical use
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Aug 13, 2022 22:40
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QuarkJets posted:Social Security faced cutbacks in the 80s and 90s, too. It seems that a lack of means testing didn't help The 1983 reform act is the only time benefits were reduced and even that was relatively minor, with the full retirement age being increased by two years for future cohorts and taxation of a portion of benefits. It also decreased early retirement benefits I believe, though those were themselves a later addition to the original legislation. Otherwise the program has been expanded for almost 100 years to cover more people and provide higher level of benefits. This despite Reagan wanting to kill it, Bush wanting to kill it, Clinton wanting to kill it, W Bush wanting to kill it, etc. Politicians since Goldwater have been railing against social security but it’s so popular across a large cross section of the population that nobody has ever managed to do more than modest adjustments in the midst of a manufactured solvency crisis. Meanwhile Clinton absolutely gutted welfare, completely doing away with with new deal era AFDC and instantiating the much worse TANF because nobody gives a poo poo about poor people.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:12
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THE BIG DOG DADDY posted:Gee I wonder why the two most "popular" govt programs also happen to be the ones that provide the most critical use Medicare and Medicaid serve the same function but the one that only helps poor people is less popular, shows a much stronger partisan divide and is much more likely to suffer benefit reductions. Housing is a critical need but I wouldn’t say section 8 and public housing are popular initiatives. Food is a critical need but that doesn’t stop food stamps from being hosed with constantly. Even school meals are a hot button issue and surely “kids not starving” should be a “critical use.” You’ve got to be willfully dense to argue that the unique staying power of SSRI and Medicare has nothing to do with them being universal benefits. 
YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 23:25
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So can I get money back if I preorder an R1S? 😂
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Aug 14, 2022 00:26
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YOLOsubmarine posted:“They were going to send their kids to college anyway, why shouldn’t they pay for it!” Hello, I'm a person with a kid going to college. My state has free in-state tuition. I told my kid that if they went in-state, we could take all that tuition money we'd saved, and put it toward a house: my kid decided to go in-state. Here's what this is like for me: Jr applied to college and was accepted. Next year she will show up at college, provide an ID, and then she's in. We still have to buy books, and pay for room and board, but getting free tuition really was as simple as Jr filling in a form and clicking submit. When I met ms cruft, she was living by herself trying to pay her way through community college and keeping down a 40-hour job, because her rear end in a top hat parents refused to sign the FAFSA, and so she was unable to get any financial assistance at all. I don't think it mattered that she was over 21, they still required financial information from her parents. The simplicity of free in-state tuition is just amazing. There are no forms, no information to provide to prove you qualify, no loans, no big scary tens-of-thousands-of dollar amounts that could cause your skittish parents to lose their poo poo and pull you out. You just apply to college, and then you go. I'm really hoping this works to get tons of kids through college. I'm tired of being the second worst state in the country at basically everything. (At least there's Mississippi still making us look good.)
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Aug 14, 2022 13:28
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The 1983 reform act is the only time benefits were reduced and even that was relatively minor, with the full retirement age being increased by two years for future cohorts and taxation of a portion of benefits. It also decreased early retirement benefits I believe, though those were themselves a later addition to the original legislation. I don't call screwing younger generations out of 16% of their social security benefits "relatively minor."
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Aug 14, 2022 14:19
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MrLogan posted:I don't call screwing younger generations out of 16% of their social security benefits "relatively minor." Relative to the massive detrimental changes to other social programs like Medicaid or TANF it’s minor. Social Security is not even close to sufficient but it’s frankly miraculous that it still exists at all in a recognizable form.
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Aug 14, 2022 17:06
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cruft posted:I'm tired of being the second worst state in the country at basically everything. (At least there's Mississippi still making us look good.) Whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn't aware you lived in Arizona.
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Aug 14, 2022 20:10
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Peanut3141 posted:Whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn't aware you lived in Arizona. He’s in store brand Arizona. New Mexico. i love and live in the southwest
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Aug 15, 2022 06:59
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wolrah posted:For comparison: OK, so the H-EV is roughly the same size as the original. Interesting. It was by no means *small*, just smaller than I expected, for some reason. I did note that it was pretty wide compared to the F-250 in front of it. R1T isn't "small" either, but slightly more compact compared to the other pickups listed. Thanks for the research to correct/collaborate my seat-of-the-pants impressions. Evil_Greven posted:Thanks for the chart. I knew the Lightning wouldn't really fit in my garage, but I didn't realize it was so much longer than the rest (aside from the Silverado). I was trying to price out an F-150 hybrid "Powerboost" the other day, and that option was only available on the crewcab, as far as I could determine. Is that the case on the Lightning as well? I haven't looked. That would account for the length.
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Aug 15, 2022 22:30
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Darchangel posted:I was trying to price out an F-150 hybrid "Powerboost" the other day, and that option was only available on the crewcab, as far as I could determine. Is that the case on the Lightning as well? I haven't looked. That would account for the length.
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Aug 15, 2022 22:35
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EV truck conversion start up I think that was posted about a couple of years ago still about and converting trucks now https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/entrepreneur-big-trucks-big-savings-big-electric-plans-20220811-p5b91o.html 3 minute battery swaps, 400-600 kms range. Given the number of trucks that just do the Brisbane - Sydney - Melbourne corridor, this could be viable
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Aug 16, 2022 13:21
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Anyone have an i4 and have thoughts about it?
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Aug 16, 2022 13:27
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TwoDice posted:Anyone have an i4 and have thoughts about it? I do, it's amazing
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Aug 16, 2022 18:31
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I do not but I saw one on Sunday and it looked great. The nostrils were not too dominant, despite the bright blue body colour.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:39
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I’d be interested in hearing from some more i4 owners.
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