|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:Yeah I can’t imagine being the poor sap who believes Trump or any politicians that break laws to further the march towards fascism will face consequences ANY DAY NOW. I've noticed for a while the common refrain on the left to do nothing when fascists act, otherwise they might act more. It's interesting to hear "don't resist let them do what they want" as a strategy to beat them, but it seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation to me with that framing
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
The president prison thought experiment gets trickier if a state locks him up and he can't self pardon. What happens when an emergency occurs and SoP states that he needs to take to air force one or a bunker? Does the secret service get to spring him from jail?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:41
|
|
|
You might be able to legally run for president from jail, but I don't think you can run as the republican candidate.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:42
|
|
|
cr0y posted:The president prison thought experiment gets trickier if a state locks him up and he can't self pardon. What happens when an emergency occurs and SoP states that he needs to take to air force one or a bunker? Does the secret service get to spring him from jail? No. Presumably, the VP and cabinet would have to admit that he can't serve and 25th him. Either that, or president jailbird designates people to act in his place for things that require the physical presence of someone with presidential power outside of state prison. edit: This gets funnier if the state insists that he follow all jail policies including a strict limit on visiting hours. 3 times a week, everyone who needs his time gets 1 hour. Rigel fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
Mulva posted:The argument is "We're Christian, not Jewish, and Jesus rejected Leviticus and it's tribal bullshit openly and clearly.". It's not a new one. It's older than, you know, every single nation on the Earth today. I don't think that holds up. If you want to use Jesus as an example, I've yet to see a reasonable interpretation where his statements on marriage and sexual immorality could be read as anything other than man and woman being the only acceptable pairing, no matter if I personally disagree with that, as I do. (I'm happy to take this discussion elsewhere if it's cluttering up the thread btw)
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
Crespolini posted:I'd love to read it, if so. The rough outline: First you toss out biblical literalism as idolatry as Jesus is the Logos not the Bible. Then you interpret, more literally and biblically that God is Being-itself. Then you argue for the Courage to Be. The affirmation of ones being in the face of , in spite of, nonbeing. The you apply the argument of the courage to be to the specific existence and experience of being queer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 18:53
|
|
|
Apparently, right before Garland had his press conference, someone working for Trump informally reached out to the DOJ to convey a message from Trump, which was basically a veiled threat to unleash his murderous MAGA horde. Basically saying that Trump noticed that the nation was becoming enraged by the search, and "the country is on fire. What can I do to reduce the heat?" On another note, now that I've got something of substance in this post, I think I've decided that one of the biggest reasons I want to see Trump go to jail, is to see what the hell he does with his hair. There's no way a prison is going to tolerate the high-maintenance and expensive nonsense he currently does with it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:07
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:The rough outline: Thank you, that's interesting. Perhaps I'm misreading you, but are you using a somewhat more stringent definition of biblical literalism than is usually employed in these cases? I'd like to see it defined in your own words if you wouldn't mind, just so I don't misunderstand.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:10
|
|
|
I'm not shooing the religion discussion out of this thread, but the A/T thread is a very good place to discuss things in more detail if people are interested in the theological bits: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3955347 (fwiw it's not "my" thread I'm promoting, I'm barely active in it for the last year, it's just a good place to talk religion stuff)
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
Thank you, I'll take a look.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:20
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Apparently, right before Garland had his press conference, someone working for Trump informally reached out to the DOJ to convey a message from Trump, which was basically a veiled threat to unleash his murderous MAGA horde. Basically saying that Trump noticed that the nation was becoming enraged by the search, and "the country is on fire. What can I do to reduce the heat?" I saw that statement too. "What can I do to reduce the heat" honestly sounds more like a veiled question about a bribe to me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:27
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:The rough outline: Doesn't this work as an argument for anything typically considered sinful or contrary to Christian ethics? Like can you apply the 'argument of the courage to be' to the experience and existence of being a Hindu, or a rich person?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:29
|
|
|
BTW, the 'Levitcus says so' argument about homosexuality doesn't hold a ton of water because Reform* Jewish people - who do follow Levitcus - think that claim is bullshit. *I've felt out Reform Judisim only, so I don't know what Orthadox and Ultra-Orthadox Jewish people think on the matter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 19:41
|
|
|
VUGDWELLER posted:Doesn't this work as an argument for anything typically considered sinful or contrary to Christian ethics? Like can you apply the 'argument of the courage to be' to the experience and existence of being a Hindu, or a rich person? If one takes seriously that the Logos was made flesh, then all truth wherever it can be found in humans is truth. This is super old, the apologists old. Crespolini posted:Thank you, that's interesting. Perhaps I'm misreading you, but are you using a somewhat more stringent definition of biblical literalism than is usually employed in these cases? I'd like to see it defined in your own words if you wouldn't mind, just so I don't misunderstand. A evangelical is going to interpret the Bible literally as they read in their context and language. One can instead interpret and draw from things like : I am that I am or The Word was flesh with a full understanding of the context and original language those things were said in. One can flip the threat of religious symbols by asking their participants what do you mean by the “Word was flesh” because when I say it I mean λόγος which is the Greek concept of... In other words one can undermine literalism as idolatry and then also one can be better at it than they are and that combination is a big problem for them to confront.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 20:08
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:I've noticed for a while the common refrain on the left to do nothing when fascists act, otherwise they might act more. It's interesting to hear "don't resist let them do what they want" as a strategy to beat them, but it seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation to me with that framing I think the implication on the Left is that you shouldn't platform them and escalate hastily to violence for which you are unprepared by engaging with them via the illegitimate capitalist government or media and instead should keep your powder dry, keep building alternative power, and keep getting ready for a revolution.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 20:48
|
|
|
Pleasant Friend posted:You might be able to legally run for president from jail, but I don't think you can run as the republican candidate. You don't think the GOP would change their own rules to accommodate Trump? Reminder that they changed the official Republican Party Platform to "we support Trump" (paraphrased)
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 21:09
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:BTW, the 'Levitcus says so' argument about homosexuality doesn't hold a ton of water because Reform* Jewish people - who do follow Levitcus - think that claim is bullshit. My understanding of it is, the text of Leviticus was either intentionally or accidentally mistranslated to read(and i am paraphrasing) " man who lays with men" instead of the more accurate "man who lays with boys".
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 21:19
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:Yeah I can’t imagine being the poor sap who believes Trump or any politicians that break laws to further the march towards fascism will face consequences ANY DAY NOW. I may be one of those people (maybe not because I totally see where you're coming from). Maybe you'll be right in the end, but it's not the time to go full nihilist. I'm not sure if this whole Trump nuclear secrets thing is going to help the fascist trend, even if it's inevitable that we're heading that direction one way or the other. I'm not even American (from Canada) so maybe I don't have the same view on these things, but for some reason I keep optimism around and some kind of hope that humanity can pull it's head out of it's rear end.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 21:29
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:You don't think the GOP would change their own rules to accommodate Trump? Iirc they went out of their way not to have a stated platform, to avoid drawing attention to how nakedly ghoulish it is
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:09
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:I've noticed for a while the common refrain on the left to do nothing when fascists act, otherwise they might act more. It's interesting to hear "don't resist let them do what they want" as a strategy to beat them, but it seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation to me with that framing That isn’t what I said. Just because something will embolden fascists doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If means it shouldn’t be half assed. But if there are 2 things liberals are great at: it’s attacking the left and delivering half assed measures that will eventually see the boot stomp on their faces. Example: praising a climate bill that does little for the climate but is a give alway to businesses and the oil, gas, and coal industries. The correct response to lovely half measure should always: “….and what else?” jmnmu posted:I may be one of those people (maybe not because I totally see where you're coming from). Maybe you'll be right in the end, but it's not the time to go full nihilist. I'm not sure if this whole Trump nuclear secrets thing is going to help the fascist trend, even if it's inevitable that we're heading that direction one way or the other. I'm not even American (from Canada) so maybe I don't have the same view on these things, but for some reason I keep optimism around and some kind of hope that humanity can pull it's head out of it's rear end. Optimism should come from complete pessimism. Assume the worst of the world and maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised when things don’t go completely to poo poo. But optimism for the sake of it is only useful to help family and friends, as well as for those who might take a darker path if they were to face reality. Pessimism is honestly the better path in the end because you’ll never be disappointed and will have a lot of laughs. For example: if you don’t think the absurdity of everything going on is hilarious but are instead holding out for justice that has never existed, you are missing out. When Biden is up for impeachment by a republican house, the circus will be hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:23
|
|
|
No thanks, even if hope was the cruelest gift of all, I'd rather have it than not.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:For example: if you don’t think the absurdity of everything going on is hilarious but are instead holding out for justice that has never existed, you are missing out. Ideals are real when we participate in them and make them real.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:32
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:That isn’t what I said. Just because something will embolden fascists doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If means it shouldn’t be half assed. But if there are 2 things liberals are great at: it’s attacking the left and delivering half assed measures that will eventually see the boot stomp on their faces. Example: praising a climate bill that does little for the climate but is a give alway to businesses and the oil, gas, and coal industries. The correct response to lovely half measure should always: “….and what else?” I don't think fascism happening is hilarious actually. I don't know if that means I'm missing out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:That isn’t what I said. Just because something will embolden fascists doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If means it shouldn’t be half assed. But if there are 2 things liberals are great at: it’s attacking the left and delivering half assed measures that will eventually see the boot stomp on their faces. Example: praising a climate bill that does little for the climate but is a give alway to businesses and the oil, gas, and coal industries. The correct response to lovely half measure should always: “….and what else?” You said that all it would do is hasten fascism's inevitable victory in America and give them ammo and empower once they win. You neglected to ask that correct question as well. So, if that's all acting against them does, in your framing of this raid and investigation and Reality, should it be done, or should we step aside? Seems like a framing that encourages inaction to me. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:45
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:That isn’t what I said. Just because something will embolden fascists doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If means it shouldn’t be half assed. But if there are 2 things liberals are great at: it’s attacking the left and delivering half assed measures that will eventually see the boot stomp on their faces. Example: praising a climate bill that does little for the climate but is a give alway to businesses and the oil, gas, and coal industries. The correct response to lovely half measure should always: “….and what else?” Also, the ACA, which was a half measure at best, and embodies all the elements you just spoke to.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 23:21
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Except there are Hindua who are opposed to thr caste system, Christians who are fine with homosexuality, and Christians and Muslims who don't believe nonbelievers are going to hell. Well, this is kind of what I was getting at with my comparison to alcohol. Most people who drink alcohol don't abuse alcohol, or drive drunk, or get drunk and beat their spouse, or any of that really negative stuff. But some people take the drinking too far, and do that sort of thing! So it is with religion: for most religious people, religion is a positive force in their lives. But some people take it way too far, and end up doing heinous poo poo. Most don't... but some do. So we need to accept that it does have the potential for significant harm, and if it's a negative influence in your life, the people around you need to say "you need to chill."
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 23:43
|
|
|
Why the gently caress would we ever stop being dissatisfied, angry, engaged... why the gently caress would we stop demanding more and advocating more pressure... when we know we haven't done enough, and we know it's always taken a fight, taken sacrifice from mass people to change anything towards the better. I just don't understand pushback against leftist pressure, like if we don't appreciate and prostrate ourselves before the Just to be clear, I believe in society, collaboration, collective sacrifice. It's a question of power and capture. Edit: there are allies to be gained once we are able to buck our illusion of choice. As racist and misogynistic and backwards as US culture is, your neighbors are less the problem than our systems and status quo. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 23:47
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Well, this is kind of what I was getting at with my comparison to alcohol. Most people who drink alcohol don't abuse alcohol, or drive drunk, or get drunk and beat their spouse, or any of that really negative stuff. But some people take the drinking too far, and do that sort of thing! So it is with religion: for most religious people, religion is a positive force in their lives. But some people take it way too far, and end up doing heinous poo poo. Most don't... but some do. So we need to accept that it does have the potential for significant harm, and if it's a negative influence in your life, the people around you need to say "you need to chill." You don't seem to be making an argument against religion so much as an argument against going too far with literally anything, which is correct but not all that enlightening? Do you think there's any inherent quality to religion that makes it especially dangerous versus say alcohol, or smoking, or gambling, to pick a couple of examples that have zero positives and only negatives? Religion can provide a genuine sense of community and spiritual fulfilment that's insanely hard to replicate, what can we replace that with? Earlier you posted: PT6A posted:I agree that this can happen with any idol/ideology and religion isn't special in this regard, but the reason I want to compare this to substance abuse is that they're both trying to fulfil unmet needs, and we need to reach out and help meet those needs in a way that doesn't end in a tragic situation like this How? What's the replacement community we're offering here? The atheist community is a toxic stew of smug racists and habitual sexual harassers. The labour movement is decimated. Neighbourhoods are atomised and suspicious by default. Where do we try and divert people? apart, of course, from the eternal light of marxist-leninist thought. Never mind I figured it out
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:16
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Ideals are real when we participate in them and make them real. Sure. Let me know when that happens. Unfortunately you have folks, including on this very forum, who don’t consider liberals supporters of fascism. Hint: supporting the police in any capacity is supporting fascism. Jaxyon posted:I don't think fascism happening is hilarious actually. Probably shouldn’t vote Dem or support Dems then in any capacity (Per your posts, I don’t think you do). Obviously that doesn’t mean vote for republicans either but I have to say this for the decorum-brained. RBA Starblade posted:You said that all it would do is hasten fascism's inevitable victory in America and give them ammo and empower once they win. Don’t be purposely dense. I said half assed measures enable fascism. Biden should jail trump, the Republican Party that supported him, and judges that enacted his policies. Not doing so IS half assed. BiggerBoat posted:Also, the ACA, which was a half measure at best, and embodies all the elements you just spoke to. ACA is also a half assed measure as you correctly stated. It loving sucks and got my family and friends killed thanks to the lack of care, support, and allowing capitalists to run it. A proper single payer, non predatory system would have helped everyone an not allow a faceless corporation decide what treatment is and isn’t necessary at ridiculous markups. I understand it helped some folks but it got mine killed. To hand wave their deaths by saying “but it helped others” would be disgusting, especially when Dems dangled single payer in front of voters and quickly tossed it aside the second they took office. However the original point was to say don’t assume any justice will come for Trump or his cronies. Dems will decorum their way to fascism by allowing Trump and Co. to walk. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:18
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:Why the gently caress would we ever stop being dissatisfied, angry, engaged... why the gently caress would we stop demanding more and advocating more pressure... when we know we haven't done enough, and we know it's always taken a fight, taken sacrifice from mass people to change anything towards the better. Who did this in the thread? Can you quote them please?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:21
|
|
|
Pleasant Friend posted:You might be able to legally run for president from jail, but I don't think you can run as the republican candidate. I guess we'd just find out whether or not the RNC actually makes a difference. Maybe all that advertising poo poo is just bigger and bigger yard signs, and they don't matter. What if Trump tells Ronna to fire the entire board?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:29
|
|
|
Thread is giving me eye aids Though i enjoy the biden is a fascist if he doesnt jail all his opponents take (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:34
|
|
|
Despera posted:Thread is giving me eye aids “Jail political opponents” is a strange way to word Jailing those who compromised the Supreme Court and federal court, robbed the citizen’s treasury, sold state secrets to foreign adversaries, attacked and murdered innocent citizens, etc. I assume liberals would have gawked just as harshly at folks demanding Paul von Hindenburg take appropriate actions. vvvvv if it’s wrong then why have Dems and their supporters put any stake in the Jan 6 commission? Unless it’s all for show / fundraising and not about narrowly avoiding a fascist coup… (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
I'm starting to see where you're coming from with that framing VBC
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:46
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:“Jail political opponents” is a strange way to word Jailing those who compromised the Supreme Court and federal court, robbed the citizen’s treasury, sold state secrets to foreign adversaries, attacked and murdered innocent citizens, etc. Unless you want to clarify this to mean a very significantly smaller subset of people: quote:Biden should jail trump, the Republican Party that supported him, and judges that enacted his policies. Not doing so IS half assed. ...then your hot take was insane.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
Do we give people trials before jailing them or just sweep them all up and sort out the good ones later
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:55
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Unless you want to clarify this to mean a very significantly smaller subset of people: Subset of folks: those Dems and liberals accuse were about to destroy democracy on Jan 6. Unless all the rhetoric surrounding Jan 6 is bullshit. haveblue posted:Do we give people trials before jailing them or just sweep them all up and sort out the good ones later Do you trust the same justice system that stripped the rights of women to deliver just rulings if Trump was prosecuted? Don’t speak from opposite points of view. Either you trust and approve of the system we have or you don’t. Just to make it clear: any prosecution against trump and his cronies would go in front of the Supreme Court in one form or another. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
haveblue posted:Do we give people trials before jailing them or just sweep them all up and sort out the good ones later What "good ones" are you imagining exist among the republican party and the judiciary it installed?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:01
|
|
|
virtualboyCOLOR posted:Subset of folks: those Dems and liberals accuse were about to destroy democracy on Jan 6. Unless all the rhetoric surrounding Jan 6 is bullshit. ok, so Trump and the people who broke into the capitol. (none of whom included any judges to my knowledge)
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
Saying you shouldn't jail your political opponents is basically saying you can't goto prison is you are a politician. Everyone is someone's opponent.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:02
|
|