|
YaketySass posted:I don't remember this being stated anywhere. Some of the other posters here got to it before I did, but I actually have a new mystery! It is common knowledge, evidently, that Abbadon once said that Zoss "could suplex Jagganoth off the edge of Throne." Some people claim that it was stated on his formspring, others, on his Twitter, but I can't find the original statement anywhere! Or maybe I'm just very bad at looking for things. Niavmai posted:he was forced to his knees. they didn't do any damage to him, and there was no hint that he was actually on the verge of defeat. it also doesn't say that his war form is time limited, i'm not sure where you got that from Breaker of Infinities, Chapter 3, page 109. Incubus says "That war form of his is impressive... but he clearly can't maintain it for long periods of time." And I'll come back to him being on the verge of defeat soon! Sorry, it's just structured like this because I am bad at writing. Niavmai posted:nor was he in that form while gog is present. Breaker of Infinities, Chapter 2, page 55. Solomon specifically swallows his pride and demands that Gog "honor the pact" by joining their fight against Jagganoth's war form. She engages Jagganoth in his war form on the following page and forces him to his knees on page 65. Niavmai posted:he was also sad that allison couldn't see how awesome his point was, that's his whole deal, he's the thinker, he tries the easy way with words first. Jagganoth's tragedy is that his previous experiences have left him unable to ruminate on anything other than death. He writes poetry, yes, but Aam'ya'ke, death poetry, because to him, all roads inevitably lead back there. It would have made his life easier if Allison had surrendered the master key, but he was beyond words and the easy way when he ignited Rayuba. He was there to bring about slaughter and ruination, one way or another. Niavmai posted:i also do not recall it being said anywhere that zoss could defeat him. jagganoth is both the literal and metaphorical embodiment of the end of reality, if zoss could defeat him directly, why would he be turning the wheel back? why would he have done it the first time? We don't know what Zoss's win condition is, or what he's really after. Jagganoth is the wheel turning king, and Zoss seems okay with the wheel turning. If he wanted to defeat Jagganoth, I have no doubt that he could. I could be wrong, though! Anyway, the crux of the matter here isn't Allison, but the word you keep coming back to. I think it's the word that makes this conversation hard to have, because Jagganoth objectively occupies a very lofty and noticeable position due to his invulnerability. But that's not the word I'm thinking of either! Defeat. What is defeat when it comes to Jagganoth? Is it not being able to prove himself to be invulnerable and beyond death in a way that matters? If so, he certainly has won! He could become a truly immortal and unkillable ramen seller in Throne if he wanted to do so, and I'm sure the other demiurges would rest easier if he had. But he is not Jagganoth because he is invulnerable. He is invulnerable because he is Jagganoth, and what Jagganoth is goes far beyond the feathers he nailed into his body. Jagganoth heads to Rayuba to face the other demiurges and get the master key for a reason. So he may destroy the world's slaver, Metatron, and cut the true world from this corpse reality, in doing so, correcting god's work and setting all things free. This is not the purpose he was given, which you were 100% correct about : Jagganoth knows he is left to clean up. It all ends in him. When he says he has never lost, he means that it has always ended in him - not because he is alive, unkillable, and that alone is enough to ensure his victory - but because he cleans everything up and ends it. Victory for him isn't living, quite the contrary, he'd probably be pretty happy if he was able to find some way to die! When I say that he was on the verge of defeat when he was forced to his knees, it's not because I thought they were about to kill him. Rather, they were all working together against him, forcing him to take an attack empowered by the very thing he sought to empower him to end the cycle creation was imprisoned by, and thus prevent him from achieving either his given purpose or his chosen purpose. One cannot destroy corpse realities or clean anything up if they are unable to move/act and buried underneath billions of tons of organic horror, after all! Sorry that got so long, I started rereading the comic and got really into it all again. I agree with you that, unless something big changes, Jagganoth is indeed unkillable. But he's not undefeatable. One does not have to die or even be hurt to lose everything they once pursued, and what greater defeat is there for someone like Jagganoth than that?
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 03:19 |
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:I think that is the belief of the characters in the comic who are aware of the cycle, but that belief has already become false. Zoss didn't choose the boy this time, and he didn't spin the wheel back this time. Events have already changed. abaddon is on record that K6BD’s universe is deterministic and that jadis’s omniscience is flawless. you can’t rules-lawyer it or find loopholes in it, and you can’t speculate on her intent because she doesn’t have any beyond “it’s what I do” the conflict Alison has to resolve here isn’t against Jadis, it’s against herself. Jadis is just the looking-glass that reflects and magnifies her own inner turmoil Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Aug 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 22:57
|
|
|
seriously Jadis is just Nietzsche's eternal recurrance packaged in a rad looking form for webcomic readers. It becomes even more obvious when you read what ol' Fred had to say about amor fati:quote:What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine."
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 23:19
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:abaddon is on record that K6BD’s universe is deterministic and that jadis’s omniscience is flawless. you can’t rules-lawyer it or find loopholes in it, and you can’t speculate on her intent because she doesn’t have any beyond “it’s what I do” I largely agree, and yeah there's no question the author intends for the magic of determinism to work in his universe I still think there's the outstanding question of what to make of the agency if characters that are possibly outside that universe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Allison has consistently uprooted every Demiurges' sense of self and suplexed it into the ground. But Jagganoth is definitely for real invulnerable this time, for sure. The big difference is, I don't think being invulnerable is really the base of Jagganoth's personality. He doesn't make a big deal of how powerful he is, talking himself up. Everyone else talks about how invulnerable he is, but Jagganoth doesn't need to. Why would he? It's self-evident. When his opponents manage to slow Jagganoth down or strike a blow against him, he compliments them. It's not a blow to his ego. As Dammerung's very thorough post mentions, he's downright happy when David goes all-out against him. So if he found out he wasn't totally invulnerable, he'd be pleasantly surprised if anything. I don't think there's any way to lay Jagganoth low, not in the same sense as the other demiurges. He knows the most of the situation out of any of them, he agrees that it sucks and is awful. His outlook is profoundly nihilistic as a result - he argues that killing people is doing them a favour, because they're free of this "corpse reality". I guess if Allison's final victory means that she stops the wheel from being turned back again and lets this iteration of the multiverse continue, Jagganoth might feel like an rear end in a top hat for killing all those people? But that seems a bit trite. Overall, it comes down to this: the other demiurges are trapped in prisons of their own making. Jagganoth, by and large, is trapped in a prison of Metatron and Zoss's making. Wherever his arc is going, it's not gonna look like the other demiurges'.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 00:55
|
|
|
The only way to defeat a jaggahog is to deploy a leviathog
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:07
|
|
|
Otherkinsey Scale posted:Overall, it comes down to this: the other demiurges are trapped in prisons of their own making. Jagganoth, by and large, is trapped in a prison of Metatron and Zoss's making. Wherever his arc is going, it's not gonna look like the other demiurges'. Jagganoth's prison is Sword Law - as the Blade demiurge, he's incapable of conceiving any reality outside of the conflict and annihilation inherent to the Cut. trying to out-violence him is basically equivalent to stepping into his prison cell and locking the door behind you
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:19
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Jagganoth's prison is Sword Law - as the Blade demiurge, he's incapable of conceiving any reality outside of the conflict and annihilation inherent to the Cut. trying to out-violence him is basically equivalent to stepping into his prison cell and locking the door behind you On the other hand, what if Allison merged with even more ladies, like six or seven
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:20
|
|
|
its almost as if the answer to this problem might involve some sort of action.............done collectively.....
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:24
|
|
|
Kei Technical posted:On the other hand, what if Allison merged with even more ladies, like six or seven Alison’s glimpse of the Wheel will let her Voltron with every other lady in the sevenfold world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:37
|
|
|
quantum mechanical processes aren't deterministic (except when they are) (?), Allison needs an Ant-Man suit strap homeboy to a decaying atom, I'd like to see ol Jaggy wriggle his way out of THIS jam
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:41
|
|
|
Oh well never the less
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:43
|
|
|
Lunatic Sledge posted:quantum mechanical processes aren't deterministic (except when they are) (?) Technically, if locality doesn't hold up, it's possible for us to live in a universe that is entirely deterministic, with quantum mechanics still as is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 01:45
|
|
|
It seems to me that determinism can be broken by someone who knows what their future actions will be, in specific detail. At least as long as there's no active metaphysical force stopping you going off-script. But it would require you to very specifically decide to defy the future. If you're basing the decision on anything else at all then you're just making a decision, the same decision you were always going to make, and if knowing what that decision is changes the outcome it only changes it to whatever you are ultimately going to do - and therefore, what you were always going to do. But to specifically not do what you know you're going to do? That's a paradox. Something has to break.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
Presumably, perfect foresight would have predicted that anyway. Maybe the causality gets a little squiggly, but that's why Jadis is the expert.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 02:07
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Jagganoth's prison is Sword Law - as the Blade demiurge, he's incapable of conceiving any reality outside of the conflict and annihilation inherent to the Cut. trying to out-violence him is basically equivalent to stepping into his prison cell and locking the door behind you Now I'm just imagining Jagganoth as the guy from the goon prison stories who would set up his cell as the oil-drome and it seems somewhat appropriate. Re: Jadis. Just because she is omniscient doesn't mean she's not going to lie about what she sees. Telling Alison she's going to die in 35 years might be the lie necessary to get her to do the crazy thing she needs to do which will kill her shortly. I agree with the poster way up there - Jadis is building to a pitch, the nihilism is just a philosophical door-in-face sales technique.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 02:41
|
|
|
Listen I've seen too much shonen anime to believe that you can't alter even a deterministic future by focusing really hard and stating that you are really really serious about changing the future. Possibly add some screaming for extra effect.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:It seems to me that determinism can be broken by someone who knows what their future actions will be, in specific detail. At least as long as there's no active metaphysical force stopping you going off-script. But it would require you to very specifically decide to defy the future. If you're basing the decision on anything else at all then you're just making a decision, the same decision you were always going to make, and if knowing what that decision is changes the outcome it only changes it to whatever you are ultimately going to do - and therefore, what you were always going to do. No active metaphysical force is required to stop you going off-script. The thing that keeps you on script in determinism is the fact that you are you. The sum total of your experiences and environmental factors. This isn't even mutually exclusive with the concept of free will. You are still making decisions, but you were always going to make the same one because of who you are and what you've experienced. If it is simultaneously possible to see the future in specific detail, and have a deterministic universe, as is evidently the case based on uncited word of god in this thread, then your knowledge of the future in specific detail is in fact why you are going to remain on script. Or rather, part of why. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 03:50
|
|
|
Elissimpark posted:Now I'm just imagining Jagganoth as the guy from the goon prison stories who would set up his cell as the oil-drome and it seems somewhat appropriate. She could be lying, but with as far down the nihilism hole as she's gone she'd probably consider lying to have no utility (since nothing has any utility at all) and so she wouldn't bother. She's just expressing her point of view to one of the few beings in the multiverse who might be able to survive knowing it. Unless her perfect future knowledge tells her that What She Does is lie to manipulate Allison into behaving in a certain way so that a specific event can come to pass. But that wouldn't be very... slothful.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 04:43
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:I think that is the belief of the characters in the comic who are aware of the cycle, but that belief has already become false. Zoss didn't choose the boy this time, and he didn't spin the wheel back this time. Events have already changed. They're saying that it's possible that all the cycles as a whole are deterministic when laid out one after another, that Jadis has seen all of the wheel spins.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 05:29
|
|
|
Dammerung posted:Some of the other posters here got to it before I did, but I actually have a new mystery! It is common knowledge, evidently, that Abbadon once said that Zoss "could suplex Jagganoth off the edge of Throne." Some people claim that it was stated on his formspring, others, on his Twitter, but I can't find the original statement anywhere! Or maybe I'm just very bad at looking for things. It was an ask on his tumblr, which is absurdly full of power-level questions: https://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr.com/post/151669192535/did-zoss-used-to-keep-jagganoth-in-check-or-was Anonymous asked: Did Zoss used to keep Jagganoth in check, or was Big J in a better place emotionally when Zoss was in charge? Answer: Little bit of both. Zoss could probably pick Jagganoth up and German suplex him off the edge of Throne or something
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 06:15
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Maybe, but I get the impression with him it's less that he wants to gently caress off and not have responsibility, and more that he's realised that he's incapable of solving this himself. That wheel obviously has 8 spokes, hosed up that god would lie about the shape of reality.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 07:13
|
|
|
Algid posted:That wheel obviously has 8 spokes, hosed up that god would lie about the shape of reality. Reality is just missing 111,111 universes and nobody knows why, or even that they're missing. This is what happens when you believe God.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 07:26
|
|
|
again paratext is interesting and can be enriching (and kind of awkward to talk about because i guess his posting ITT counts lol), but i am pretty sure it's been contradicted by the text at least once. i didn't even think jagg and zoss as leader existed concurrently, i thought jagg only became superjagg well after zoss bounced?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 12:24
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:again paratext is interesting and can be enriching (and kind of awkward to talk about because i guess his posting ITT counts lol), but i am pretty sure it's been contradicted by the text at least once. i didn't even think jagg and zoss as leader existed concurrently, i thought jagg only became superjagg well after zoss bounced? He got the nails after the Universal War, which I assumed happened after Zoss's disappearance.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 13:07
|
|
|
i feel like there's a big misunderstanding of how omniscience and determinism would interact here. it's not necessarily that she's "following the script" as it were, but rather every action that she could take is already not leading to an ending that she cares about. her nihlism doesn't necessarily have to come from simply being overwhelmed with the unchanging enormity, but it could be because every action that she might consider taking is already not an outcome she desires. even things like attempting to 'go off script,' have already been determined. there is no such thing as off script. her actions are still by definition 'free will,' as in she's able to choose which timeline to follow, but she must see herself as impossibly limited by the bounds of her physical reality. even if she can see a clear path to a certain outcome, in the overwhelming majority of those infinite possibilities, it's either too late, or impossible to achieve through means that she is capable of. e: the entire idea of being able to go off script is a misnomer. timetravel in a deterministic universe doesn't look like back to the future's Y shape, where you can jump back to timeline A after doing something in timeline B. every moment that passes is a new branch on the timeline that you and your conciousness happen to be experiencing. Niavmai fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
Free will is an incoherent concept on a universal scale. You are who you are, and your actions could only have ever led to one outcome
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Free will is an incoherent concept on a universal scale. You are who you are, and your actions could only have ever led to one outcome no. not one outcome. infinite outcomes. infinite possibilities. even one molecule out of place is a new timeline with different possibilities. technically her free will is actually more real than anyone elses, as she's able to make her choices very informed. everyone else is just guessing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 19:11
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:no. not one outcome. infinite outcomes. infinite possibilities. even one molecule out of place is a new timeline with different possibilities. That doesn't seem to be what she's experiencing? She's gone outside of the book and saw that the book is already finished from this absolute perspective. Characters in the book are making "free will" choices, but in a perspective outside of time those choices are already made and it's all already determined. She's broken herself because she's seen everything her character does in the future pages, including the reasons that caused her to do the things she's going to do. You take Hamlet out of the book and show him the ending and the beginning and put him back in the book, except the book is also written so that this is also part of the plot and Hamlet sees his own madness from knowing what he's going to do is already part of the story already written for him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 20:26
|
|
|
What if the universe is deterministic but it's only the existence of the computer that allows Jadis a constant feed of what's going to happen next
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 20:40
|
|
|
Niavmai posted:no. not one outcome. infinite outcomes. infinite possibilities. even one molecule out of place is a new timeline with different possibilities. You're fundamentally misunderstanding and/or not reading what she's experiencing here. This is Doctor Manhattan style "everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, forever". There are not infinite possibilities. There is one outcome and she is viewing it past present and future simultaneously at all times. It is deterministic because her knowledge of the future coupled with who she is as a person, the environmental factors at play, means she is going to do what she sees coming to pass. Free will does not necessitate infinite possibilities. Quite the contrary, if you've got a 50/50 chance of making two different choices at every juncture you're not actually meditating upon your options and making a choice. At that point you're a random number generator. In a deterministic model, your life experiences/personality/what's going on at the time of the choice means there can only ever be one decision. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:You're fundamentally misunderstanding and/or not reading what she's experiencing here. This is Doctor Manhattan style "everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, forever". There are not infinite possibilities. There is one outcome and she is viewing it past present and future simultaneously at all times. but this doesn't account for omniscience or time travel, both of which we know to exist in the universe. it does necessitate infinite possibilities, because it's accounting for every iteration of "but because i know that, i do this instead, but because i did that, i do this..." ad literally infinitum. e: your interpretation only holds true if the observer was already separate from the infinite from the beginning of their existence. another being on yisun's scale, but that can't be possible, or creates implications of another layer up that i wouldn't want to get into. FlocksOfMice posted:That doesn't seem to be what she's experiencing? She's gone outside of the book and saw that the book is already finished from this absolute perspective. Characters in the book are making "free will" choices, but in a perspective outside of time those choices are already made and it's all already determined. She's broken herself because she's seen everything her character does in the future pages, including the reasons that caused her to do the things she's going to do. the problem is that the observer is within the timeline. they have a fixed perspective from inside of time itself, a distinction of that which is experienced is a single slice of time. the implication (i think) is that jadis can no longer anchor herself to a single point in time the way we are, and thus loses the perspective. e2: essentially, because she has permanent omniscience without omnipotency, she feels completely powerless, hence the nihlism. if there's a loss of omniscience with only the simple (and likely very flawed) memory of the shape, normal existence is possible again, if kinda hosed. Niavmai fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 14, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 21:04
|
|
|
none of the rumination on what omniscience really matter until we know what jadis wants here. she's clearly putting this all on allison because allison has the master key, and jadis wants to have it or for allison to use it in some specific way. thats how the demiurges have worked so far, and jadis is no different. and its likely that somehow zoss' power changes the equation on the fixed world
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 21:07
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 21:43
|
|
|
Every time I see one of these I'm afraid the joke will stop being funny, but it never does.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:You're fundamentally misunderstanding and/or not reading what she's experiencing here. This is Doctor Manhattan style "everything that has happened, is happening, will happen, forever". There are not infinite possibilities. There is one outcome and she is viewing it past present and future simultaneously at all times. I agree with all of this as far as what we have been told. Things might change, Operant might change his mind, or something else might happen. Most people seem to think that Allison will somehow break the deterministic universe and create a new path, because "you lose, comic over" wouldn't be very satisfying. However, I've said it before, but another possible option, not saying it will happen, but it could, is that Allison and co. will beat Jag and Jadis knows it. Allison: "But you said we would lose, Jadis!" Jadis: "Yeah, I know, but I had to say that, it was predetermined. I knew you would win as well, but, I had to say you would lose because, well, I had to." Allison: "That's messed up!" Jadis: "Tell me about it..."
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
Also, lol, I love that a one-off basketball joke turned into a running theme of funny edits. isasphere posted:Every time I see one of these I'm afraid the joke will stop being funny, but it never does. I always think "oh yeah, this is gonna be good!" lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
isasphere posted:It was an ask on his tumblr, which is absurdly full of power-level questions: Oh goodness, thank you! My bad - one thing that I love about this thread is that we're approaching characters and their power from a story-telling perspective, rather than wondering if Goku's new transformation would be enough to let him cinch a victory over Superhero Jagganath in a pie-eating competition or whatever. Twenty Four posted:Also, lol, I love that a one-off basketball joke turned into a running theme of funny edits. There's another awesome series of edits that makes everything fishing-themed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 23:28
|
|
|
FlocksOfMice posted:You take Hamlet out of the book and show him the ending and the beginning and put him back in the book, except the book is also written so that this is also part of the plot and Hamlet sees his own madness from knowing what he's going to do is already part of the story already written for him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 03:19 |
|
|
CoolCab posted:
I mean, you'd have to be a pretty shoddy Demigod Of 1/7th Of All Creation to not be able to downgrade a "Kills Everyone Instantly" attack to a mere "Get Royally hosed Up" for you personally. Unfortunately for Grandpa Horse-Dog... 
Archenteron fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Aug 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 04:16
|
|
