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CitizenKeen posted:I was asking if there are other conventions that are equal parts "industry networking" (you're there to socialize with people in your industry) and "hobby conventions" (you're there to buy stuff and check out vendors you like, and the vendors are just there to sell poo poo to you). As far as I can tell, the nerd industries seem to be a little unique in that aspect. I'm pretty sure AVN AEE is a really messy cocktail of "professional networking", "pros selling stuff to fans", "fans trying to endear themselves to pros", iffy parasocial expectations, and borderline-to-outright predation. That's a special case for obvious reasons, though.
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Aug 12, 2022 22:35
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CitizenKeen posted:Sorry, that's not what I was asking. I opened my previous post acknowledging there being a lot of drinking at the conventions of other industries. I've been to conventions in other industries and people get absolutely blasted; I know this. Sea Otter is an outdoors expo that is exactly like this but add in a lot of dangerous things like mountain bike racing and a lot more drugs and alcohol. Same with a number of consumer electronics niches like photography and wedding photography/vendors. Those all happen in Vegas to boot. NAMM is the same for musical instruments and production. Etc etc. The Vegas wedding ones are by far the most toxic and self destructive displays I've ever seen from adults, for what it's worth. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 22:40
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Most cons are transactional. Nerd cons are just B2C instead of B2B. The major difference is that nerd cons have a much higher concentration of people who are extremely socially awkward and either can’t read or wildly misinterpret social cues.
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Aug 13, 2022 00:39
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I only went to a couple microbiology conferences during my disastrous time in grad school but yeah there was a concerning amount of drinking at the after parties, and my awful advisor was especially bad about that. I think Leperflesh has the right read on exactly why nerd cons are significantly worse than professional/academic ones. The few official events I went to that served alcohol had 1-2 drink maximums. Doesn't help if your alcoholic boss buys round after round at the hotel bar after and mocks you for not partaking, though. 
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Aug 13, 2022 01:44
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CitizenKeen posted:Sorry, that's not what I was asking. I opened my previous post acknowledging there being a lot of drinking at the conventions of other industries. I've been to conventions in other industries and people get absolutely blasted; I know this. Grad school/academic conferences have been brought up but yeah, chiming in about the times I’ve seen field luminaries too drunk to ride an elevator. But also a lot of music festivals in my experience, or at least bluegrass, Irish, New England, French Canadian, other various acoustic folk poo poo I listen to. It’s a mix of professionals networking and running workshops and performing mixed with fans coming for shows or taking classes or going to dances. And with big chunks of the people camping on site. There’s a LOT of drinking in my experience, even by my standards, as it’s basically at least 3 days, often in the sun, of laid back socializing, playing music and giant dances where no one’s driving. And now that I’m thinking about it, they’ve all either been pretty safe or were secretive enough I didn’t know while being various kinds of volunteer or organizer. There’s dumb poo poo people do, of course, but it’s always been like a bullshit argument over a bazouki or something. Certainly never heard of a sexual assault (note phrasing). No idea if that’s a true and real accounting or just my impression, but like I was helping security and stage crew while my then-girlfriend was on first aid so it’s not like I had no sources of information.
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Aug 13, 2022 03:23
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Just occurred to me this is all somewhat familiar to the stories my best friend told me about the summers he worked Faire. After the gates close, Ren Faire workers cut loose to an absurd degree, at least the ones working southern Faire in California in the late 90s through early 00s did. Lot of drinking, lot of sexual escapades, lot of drama, lot of cheating on spouses and abruptly detonated relationships. He didn't tell me about any assaults but I didn't ask about it either. And I guess I'd put Faire solidly into the "nerd con" category - mix of the public there to have fun and the "professional" crowd working as vendors and entertainers whose reputations actually matter in terms of keeping their jobs, supposedly.
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Aug 13, 2022 04:00
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Leperflesh posted:Just occurred to me this is all somewhat familiar to the stories my best friend told me about the summers he worked Faire. After the gates close, Ren Faire workers cut loose to an absurd degree, at least the ones working southern Faire in California in the late 90s through early 00s did. Lot of drinking, lot of sexual escapades, lot of drama, lot of cheating on spouses and abruptly detonated relationships. He didn't tell me about any assaults but I didn't ask about it either. That matches my experience. And unfortunately assaults and predation happen too, and there is still a tendency to circle the wagons and protect victimizers because they're long-standing members of the community. And mix in an astonishing quantity and variety of mind-altering substances to impair the ability to consent. There are faires that I will never stay on site overnight. There's a lot of overlap in the two communities as well. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 04:04
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it's people being away from home and away from the usual eyes watching them, but with a group having common interests or backgrounds. that's all. cf. study abroad, exchange programs, extended work travel, reality TV shows, Antarctic science posts, spring break, and and and. No, not everyone does this, but it is extremely common.
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Aug 13, 2022 05:05
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Leperflesh posted:Just occurred to me this is all somewhat familiar to the stories my best friend told me about the summers he worked Faire. After the gates close, Ren Faire workers cut loose to an absurd degree, at least the ones working southern Faire in California in the late 90s through early 00s did. Lot of drinking, lot of sexual escapades, lot of drama, lot of cheating on spouses and abruptly detonated relationships. He didn't tell me about any assaults but I didn't ask about it either. I was also in faire during that time period and in those locations, and yeah, I can confirm those stories and then some. Faire culture was (probably still is) extremely toxic, and the alcohol is a big part of that. Sexual assaults did happen on a fairly regular basis, exaggerated by a culture of sleeping around that makes some people believe everyone secretly wants to gently caress them, and are just playing hard to get if they say no. The other folks in my friend group who joined up at the same time were a bit older than me and got into that culture hard, and to this day I can see repercussions of it on their lives; being near the blast radius of faire went a long way toward making me a teetotaler. I will never forget having a faire mom try aggressively to get me to hook up with her 16 year old daughter. I was 13 and looked younger. Faire people are loving weird and you should not trust them farther than you can throw them.
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Aug 13, 2022 05:16
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Eastmabl posted:A professional acquaintance was assaulted at Gen Con, which is obviously unfuckingcool. Con Behavior is just such a hosed up and nearly universal phenomenon, what is it with people who think that going to a big event for an interest that makes them just flick off the switch that controls behavior they'd normally fully (or at least partially) repress because they know it's wrong
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Aug 13, 2022 06:01
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sportsgenius86 posted:Most cons are transactional. Nerd cons are just B2C instead of B2B. I've been saying for years that a lot of the central problems with nerd cons are that they are major social events for people who for the most part do not attend social events. Similar to how a lot of problems with traditional games is that they are social hobbies favoured by people who have poor social skills. Though I have to say, the Geek Social Fallacies are not and never have been exclusive to geeks. You seriously notice the same thing in anything from close-knit families to minority communities to social justice activists.
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Aug 13, 2022 06:22
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Every professional gathering outside of work hours I have ever been to has included drinking. Hell, until a couple years ago the beer taps in my office were open 24/7. We had a work gathering a couple months ago and the drinkers from my team and another closed the bar. Alcohol as a social event is not going away. Hopefully, sexual assault with drunken camouflage is. Toshimo posted:TL;DR: Everyone, everywhere is still getting wrecked when they travel to events, full stop. Not sure how unbiased you are. You brought a blender to GenCon.
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Aug 13, 2022 12:02
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Bottom Liner posted:They're not sitting in a room drinking by themselves. They're doing it over dinner, at events, etc. That's why they call booze a social lubricant. I think that metaphor got away from me. Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Aug 13, 2022 |
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Aug 13, 2022 12:20
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Nessus posted:I'm not a drinkologist for obvious reasons but if you're getting blackout drunk does it not kind of spoil the experience? I'm a recovering alcoholic and while 'yes' is basically the answer to your question, certainly one of my problems, which I think is true for a lot of people, one drink almost always tasted very much like another, and 'do you want another round' became a question with an increasingly inevitable answer. Part of how I eventually accepted that I had an addiction where nights when I went in intending to have a pint or two and ended up getting absolutely wrecked anyway.
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Aug 13, 2022 13:26
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Yarp. I think a lot of drinking is done to try and get away from oneself. On the topic it's funny reading this and realising that I may have been a little bit assaulted by someone back in early 2018 and 2021.
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Aug 13, 2022 14:30
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CitizenKeen posted:And more importantly, I don't think there are many people going to those corporate software conferences on their own dime for funsies, just hoping to get invited to an after-party with Scott Hanselman or Joel Spolsky or to pitch their idea to Adam Selipsky in his hotel room (to borrow your work). My job is lumber-adjacent, and lumber brokers absolutely get together every year, and drink, and drink on the company dime, but drinking and networking is the point of the event. They're all there to better their job prospects. People get drunk, and sometimes people do dumb stuff, but everybody there is in the industry, and anything you do at an afterparty is presumed to be a part of your job. You can have fun while you work but everybody knows they're at work. Same, I know film industry people and they do big time parties but it's generally expected you act like a loving tool while drunk at your own peril
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Aug 13, 2022 16:07
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I'm not sure I buy the 'all nerds don't know how to behave in social situations so sexually assault each other' idea. I do think that nerd events are a bit different to most other big social events and that may shift things a little. If you go to a work conference, you are probably going with some people you know at least a bit from work. If you go to a music festival you are most likely going with friends. A lot of people go to conventions by themselves to meet other people with the same niche interests which they are all very passionate about. You might encounter people who you have heard of or interacted with through online communities. It creates a common ground and introduction that encourages interaction with strangers that can bypass some of the awkwardness of meeting someone for the first time. People are more inclined to be openly friendly because everyone is in the same wavelength here, right? I think that could be something that leads to things getting more personal more quickly in an environment where nobody who knows you is watching. Often in a party atmosphere. For the vast majority, all is fine and a good time is had. But when you get a predator in the mix you have an environment of people who came by themselves, putting them out there more than they normally would (socially, not necessarily sexually) and so would be easier to separate from the herd and targeted individually.
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Aug 13, 2022 18:13
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Lemniscate Blue posted:That matches my experience. And unfortunately assaults and predation happen too, and there is still a tendency to circle the wagons and protect victimizers because they're long-standing members of the community. And mix in an astonishing quantity and variety of mind-altering substances to impair the ability to consent. There are faires that I will never stay on site overnight. That's probably one of the biggest things that has allowed abusers to target people repeatedly at convention settings.
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Aug 13, 2022 18:54
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Ugleb posted:I'm not sure I buy the 'all nerds don't know how to behave in social situations so sexually assault each other' idea.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:42
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Who expects that everyone gets blackout drunk? That's a pretty big jump from "people like to drink while hanging out with friends/acquaintances/coworkers/networking targets". Plenty of people don't drink at these things. Plenty of people do.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:53
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Ego Trip posted:Who expects that everyone gets blackout drunk?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:08
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Nessus posted:If you're in the industry, does not drinking affect your material prospects (networking etc.) or present the pretty reasonable chance of doing so? It kind of sounds like it does, from what's being said about unsafe con afterparties etc. being a major networking thing for trad games people. stop talking about the industry and human beings in general as a monoculture please. this is exhausting.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:10
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Drinking or at least alcohol-adjacent events being a mainstay of networking and socialization is a general problem across American (and probably most Western) cultures. It’s not universal but not is it isolated to gaming or nerd-adjacent industries.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:33
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Splicer posted:And maybe you also shouldn't pair all of this with an expectation of everyone getting blackout drunk. I don't think I did?
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Aug 13, 2022 23:56
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Ego Trip posted:Who expects that everyone gets blackout drunk? Nessus posted:I'm talking about the kind of second thread, which I think reinforces the first, which is social acceptance and toleration of binge drinking as a cool, awesome, fun, perhaps even somehow necessary thing to do. And I will be explicit that I am not talking about three beers at a long party, I mean stunt drinking. This doesn't even seem to be that fun if you're not an alcoholic already; and it also seems to give cover to the first set of people. Toshimo posted:A lot of people have unhealthy relationships with alcohol/drugs and their portrayal in media and political demonization often mean that they really don't ever meaningfully examine this in any way. So, they just are flatly unaware that having moderation is even an option. CitizenKeen posted:Sorry, that's not what I was asking. I opened my previous post acknowledging there being a lot of drinking at the conventions of other industries. I've been to conventions in other industries and people get absolutely blasted; I know this. Ugleb posted:I don't think I did?
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Aug 14, 2022 00:27
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Splicer posted:And maybe you also shouldn't pair all of this with an expectation of everyone getting blackout drunk. Yeah like, most people don't get blackout drunk and even those that do there's a large part of them that don't do it regularly. Alcoholism is certainly one aspect but some people just don't know their limits right away, or have medications changed that reduce their tolerance without realizing, or just plain losing track. Now college kids who are heavy into drinking, I'm sure they have plenty of blackout drunk problems.
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Aug 14, 2022 00:54
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admanb posted:Drinking or at least alcohol-adjacent events being a mainstay of networking and socialization is a general problem across American (and probably most Western) cultures. It’s not universal but not is it isolated to gaming or nerd-adjacent industries. Many Eastern cultures too.
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Aug 14, 2022 03:19
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It sounds like Jonathan Tweet is going to be working on the core book for the 2nd edition of 13th Age. 
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Aug 14, 2022 03:25
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Welp, gently caress that.
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Aug 14, 2022 03:36
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Nuns with Guns posted:It sounds like Jonathan Tweet is going to be working on the core book for the 2nd edition of 13th Age. So why is this bad
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Aug 14, 2022 03:49
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Tweet posted some  bullshit a couple years back and Pelgrane distanced themselves from him soon after. Clearly that didn't stick.
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Aug 14, 2022 03:52
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Nuns with Guns posted:It sounds like Jonathan Tweet is going to be working on the core book for the 2nd edition of 13th Age. He's the one who got big into "race realism" and poo poo, right? That rear end in a top hat? Edit ; gently caress, answered, I guess?
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Aug 14, 2022 03:53
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:So why is this bad  He was posting stuff like this on twitter and Pelgrane Press previously distanced themselves from him in a way that sounded like they would not be working with him any longer: https://twitter.com/13thAge/status/1145801713292460033
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Aug 14, 2022 03:56
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Splicer posted:Which has also been my experience. I'm guessing there's some hyperbole going on, then. Because there's a long way to go from heavy drinking to blacked out.
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Aug 14, 2022 04:00
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Nuns with Guns posted:It sounds like Jonathan Tweet is going to be working on the core book for the 2nd edition of 13th Age. That is such a lovely cop-out. "Guys, we think it would be harder for us if we didn't rehire Tweet after implying that we wouldn't work with him anymore. But he will only be involved in the core product! You can trust us on that, right?"
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Aug 14, 2022 04:05
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Is there any indication that Tweet's views have changed between now and then? If so, this may be more forgivable, but if not this isn't a good look.
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Aug 14, 2022 04:21
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Slimnoid posted:Tweet posted some Gonna copy what came up in the 13th age thread, but he's not an actual believer in . He just has some head-rear end ideas for dealing with them.Basically, he thinks that it shouldn't be taboo to talk about race science so that we can fully and empirically debunk it instead of letting the alt-right have a monopoly on the conversation so that people are tricked into believing it. Which, uh, that's not really how you actually deal with alt-right chuds and his idea isn't really a good one, but you can see him elaborate on his position here if you've got some time to kill. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pelgrane-press-disassociates-jonathan-tweet-from-13th-age-pelgrane.848931/page-8#post-22694744
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Aug 14, 2022 04:26
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I mean, the thing about "have his views changed" is that Tweet has always been, according to him, anti-racist. The thing with him tweeting about the need for race science has a second layer where he's actually saying that we need to get past the taboo and talk about the real race science to combat the false, racist race science. The problem is that under that there's a third layer where people spend dozens of pages on RPGnet trying to get him to explain exactly what real race science we need to be paying attention to, and which parts of the actual scientific community have taboos against discussing that science, and him blithely ignoring the people who actually know what they're talking about to repeat his talking points over and over.
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Aug 14, 2022 04:27
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He does seem to keep stepping on the same rake though: https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1552315018359631872 https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1556048448717131777 https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1557460997266255872 BONUS EDIT: https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1558478780351451136
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Aug 14, 2022 04:32
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, the thing about "have his views changed" is that Tweet has always been, according to him, anti-racist. The thing with him tweeting about the need for race science has a second layer where he's actually saying that we need to get past the taboo and talk about the real race science to combat the false, racist race science. This second part is what had me concerned; it's one thing to keep going "trust the science bro" but when you don't include sources and peer-reviewed work on your end, it begs the question of where exactly you're getting your viewpoints from. And it's all too easy for people to read just about anything into such vague statements.
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Aug 14, 2022 04:33
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