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I’m going to have to hard disagree with y’all - Saturnine was the best of the Siege books, followed closely by Warhawk.
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Aug 12, 2022 13:36
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I’ll have to chime in with team Saturnine. Although I’m also someone who enjoyed first wall because it featured iron warriors winning out through sheer bloody mindedness which is always fun.
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Aug 12, 2022 13:54
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lenoon posted:I’m going to be extremely 
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Aug 12, 2022 14:30
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about this but Gorkamorka released with white dwarf 214, and the base book contains at least one drawing of a necron skull, then the necrons themselves were white dwarf 217 - digganob is a month later and makes it very explicit that necrons are on Angelis, with some excellent art. They don’t have rules in the supplement though, unless you count your diggas occasionally going missing when hunting for archaeotech under the pyramids.
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Arquinsiel posted:I respect this level of grog 
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Aug 12, 2022 14:43
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The Heresy books for me have always been a bit of a letdown because they too often end up with the mythic becoming mundane. The ones I've liked best are the ones that have more personal stakes and examine certain characters in a more grounded way. Betrayer isn't a good book because it's about an angel falling into darkness, it's a good book because of how it looks at a broken man unable to cope with the cruelty handed to him in life while the world around him collapses and he finally falls as well.
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Aug 12, 2022 15:09
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I guess Im just a contrary rear end in a top hat because I loved The lost and the damned, and the First wall. Warhawk was also good but again, to me, it seemed obvious this was something the author wrote while working on his better book(s).
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Aug 12, 2022 15:23
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Biplane posted:I guess Im just a contrary rear end in a top hat because I loved The lost and the damned, and the First wall. Warhawk was also good but again, to me, it seemed obvious this was something the author wrote while working on his better book(s). Weren't those two books focused more on the "mere humans" rather than Astartes or Knight/Titan pilots? I wasn't the biggest fan of them, and I haven't re-read them more than once, but I remember them being less Bolter porn than some of the others.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:57
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I'd like to see a Titan story ala Pacific Rim where a new Moderatus has to join a crew and learn to sync up with the rest of the Moderatii and the Princeps and overcome past trauma. Put it on a Reaver Titan kitted out for melee combat.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:06
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thats a subplot from titanicus, i thought?
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Aug 12, 2022 17:10
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Broken Record Talk posted:Weren't those two books focused more on the "mere humans" rather than Astartes or Knight/Titan pilots? I wasn't the biggest fan of them, and I haven't re-read them more than once, but I remember them being less Bolter porn than some of the others. Lost and the Damned for sure, yeah. I'm not inherently against bolter porn, but IN MY OPINION, most of it is just plain badly written. Wraight, ADB, Ferrer definitely nail it, but Abnett (again, just my two imperial credits) especially loving sucks at it. Everybody loves the Camba Diaz bridge scene, I guess as a concept it could be cool but god drat all his "combat dialogue" is so embarassing. Let him write Bequin full time Games Workshop.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:13
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Yeah but it's not Pacific Rim style and I don't recall any Reaver Titans using elbow rocket power fist punches.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:13
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Arc Hammer posted:I'd like to see a Titan story ala Pacific Rim where a new Moderatus has to join a crew and learn to sync up with the rest of the Moderatii and the Princeps and overcome past trauma. One of the Titanicus story arcs is this. Hotshot (simulated) princeps fresh out of training joins up with a grizzled moderati crew whose boss got turned into a popsicle.
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Aug 12, 2022 17:14
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My SoT rankings Saturnine Lost and the Damned Solar War Warhawk First Wall Mortis
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Aug 12, 2022 17:48
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Arc Hammer posted:I don't recall any Reaver Titans using elbow rocket power fist punches. I can't see us ever getting that out of an Imperial Titan. That sounds like some Xeno heretek or something. Please report to the Inquisition for uhhhhhh... stuff...
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Aug 12, 2022 17:51
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a lovely king posted:You'd probably like Dan Abnett's Titanicus a lot then. Ordo Sinister is not in Titanicus?
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Aug 12, 2022 17:52
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Biplane posted:Lost and the Damned for sure, yeah. I'm not inherently against bolter porn, but IN MY OPINION, most of it is just plain badly written. Wraight, ADB, Ferrer definitely nail it, but Abnett (again, just my two imperial credits) especially loving sucks at it. Everybody loves the Camba Diaz bridge scene, I guess as a concept it could be cool but god drat all his "combat dialogue" is so embarassing. Let him write Bequin full time Games Workshop. I hope you're not throwing shade at the Diaz Bridge Fight scene, because it's awesome and we'd have to fight and I'm not taking one step backwards and I will die on this hill in the name of my Lord Dorn. Saturnine posted:Diaz stood, in the name of his Lord Dorn. He brought his siege shield up. It held firm, absorbing the first impact, demolishing a roaring face. His sword swung, carving a World Eater through the chest and throat. A chainaxe struck his shield in a welter of sparks. He cleaved the face and shoulder of its owner. He hooked a keening goat-thing off its hooves, and cast it tumbling through the air. Blood sprayed. Torn meat spattered. In the name of his Lord Dorn, he shield-smashed a World Eater aside so hard it broke neck bones. His longsword speared into a howling maw, punching through the back of the skull. It tore free through cheek and ear and mastoid and occipital bones. Metal fragments spalled, glittering. A falx tore a chunk off his vambrace. A blade cut his ribs. He took a head off its shoulders, and sent it spinning like a ball. A piece of severed horn bounced off his visor. He broke a World Eater’s jaw with his shield rim, and gutted him as he staggered aside. He split a head down to the lower teeth. In the name of his Lord Dorn. A beam of pink plasma screamed past his ear. A Gehenned fell against him, his face bitten off, and slid down his hip and leg. Diaz kicked. He disembowelled. He broke a power lance with his shield, and scythed off the arms wielding it. Diaz hacked. He carried a charging World Eater over his head on his shield, and cast him off the bridge rail. He impaled. He chopped a darting witch-dog through the neck and spine. Blood and black ichor filmed his plate. He barely noticed the chainsword gash across his right thigh, or the broken spear-tip protruding from his hip. Focus. Maintain focus. Diaz swung. In the name of his Lord Dorn. Broken teeth flew up, a cracked tusk, a whole eyeball ejected by crush-force. Chainblades screeched. Cinders. Arterial jets. A hoplite thrashed, burning alive. A plasma gun overheated, detonating. A dozen figures in the blast zone vaporised, or staggered, ablaze. Diaz struck off an arm. A face, on a downswing. Another head. A grasping hand. In the name of his lord. His Lord Dorn. Focus. A mist from steaming innards. Corpses lolled, still upright, unable to fall in the density of the press. An Excertus trooper flew overhead, flailing, eviscerated. Diaz swung. Blood erupted. The concussion of a mace. Unremitting impacts. Bleumel, at his side, mashed faces with his power hammer, swinging like a smith. Feet caught on unseen corpses. A carpet of bodies and parts of bodies. Diaz ripped his sword through ceramite and meat. Split a skull. Sliced a throat. Thijs Reus, in the name of his lord, struck with a captured falx, another falx impaled clean through his torso. The reek of death. Broken chainblade teeth pinged out like bullets. The stench of blood. The cloud of rage. A frenzy in him that matched the frenzy he fought. In the name of Dorn. Blurring violence. Diaz struck, sword buried deep in plate and black carapace. Thijs Reus on his knees, stabbing. A Gehenned screamed. A rotary cannon fired blind, point-blank. Blood on everything. Bleumel, one pauldron gone, drove his hammer into a monster twice his size, hair braids whipping and snapping at the impact. Diaz struck. He struck. Again. In the name of his Lord Dorn. Again. More. His longsword snapped. He drove the broken blade into a throat, to the hilt. He punched, empty-handed, breaking face bones. He killed a World Eater with his shredding shield, wrenching the purring chainaxe from the traitor’s hands, rotating it, making it his own. He swung. He struck. Thijs Reus knelt, headless. Diaz drove the squealing chainaxe through World Eaters plate. A fountain of gore. Thunder. Carnage. Time rushing, headlong. In the name of his lord. Blood flying. Bone snapping. Flesh tearing. Impacts. Collapses. Swinging. Striking. Pinned. The name of Dorn. Frenzy. Glory. Diaz. Smoke blind. Blood blind. Striking. Again. Camba Diaz. Thrusting. Cutting. Gutting. Striking. Slaying. In the name of his lord. Pinned. Unmoving. 
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Aug 12, 2022 21:35
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Aug 12, 2022 22:21
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Yeah, that scene is incredibly cinematic and absolutely one of the best of the entire series so far. Definitely felt some real emotion when it ends.
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Aug 12, 2022 23:43
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Abnett's done sequences like that a few times. A lot of the Gaunt books can go there with how hectic the virtually medieval space lasergun fights get, and there's a bit near the end of Know No Fear that seems like a prototype for the Diaz bit
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Aug 13, 2022 00:09
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Biplane posted:]Abaddon breaking down weeping was one of the worst parts of that book, which I already rate low in the Siege series. It feels like Abnetts siege books are just whatever drivel he manages to pump out between the books he writes good, Bequin, Eisenhorn etc. ] I disagree.
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Aug 13, 2022 12:01
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saturnine and Warhawk are the only two readable SOT books. the solar war and lost and the damned are basically just middling to bad genre fiction while mortis and the first wall are actively hazardous to the parts of your brain that can do abstract cognition.
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Aug 13, 2022 13:15
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To be clear my problem with Saturnine isn't the writing it's the plotting, or rather, that it's a collection of things happening that barely intersect. That's not even Abnett's fault, it's the "hey here's a middle book in a too-long epic, you're writing this one" problem. Part of this is on me in that I only read GW books by authors I actually like and not every book in the series.
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Aug 13, 2022 13:34
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Funny that there's such a wide spectrum of differing opinions on the various novels. Of course, I, as the arbiter of what is good and bad, have the correct opinion 
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Aug 13, 2022 16:23
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Biplane posted:Funny that there's such a wide spectrum of differing opinions on the various novels. Of course, I, as the arbiter of what is good and bad, have the correct opinion But can you see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch? No seriously I need someone to tell me. This might be the only chance I get to win custody
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Aug 14, 2022 01:03
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Biplane posted:I guess Im just a contrary rear end in a top hat because I loved The lost and the damned, and the First wall. Warhawk was also good but again, to me, it seemed obvious this was something the author wrote while working on his better book(s). I was mostly unimpressed with Saturnine, and First Wall was only a bit better. I've always dislike dthe whole Perpetuals angle to the setting, bit it was one of the few good parts of Saturnine. The arcane duel between the White Scars and the 1k Sons was dumb, the Night Lord angle is really substandard, and the whole big gambit was underwhelming. I appreciate that the series has been giving the Imperial Fists some long-deserved spotlight, but just having their new guys beating berserkers like they were power ranger puddies grows old after a while. I guess it was inevitable. The first phase of the Heresy brought a lot of new lore and character arcs that dilluted the 'certainties' of the setting (since we have a pretty good idea of how it -ends-). But now that everything is narrowing down to the finish, the surprises have already happened, we know who matter and who doesn't, what attacks will fail and which will succeed. We know that no matter how many times Primarch/Captain X fights his hated rival Primarch/Captain Y in the siege, it will end in a bit of a draw because both are still around later on, and there is less meat around the skeleton of the slugfests to distract from that fact the longer we go on.
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Aug 14, 2022 05:43
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Sephyr posted:I was mostly unimpressed with Saturnine, and First Wall was only a bit better. I've always dislike dthe whole Perpetuals angle to the setting, bit it was one of the few good parts of Saturnine. The arcane duel between the White Scars and the 1k Sons was dumb, the Night Lord angle is really substandard, and the whole big gambit was underwhelming. I appreciate that the series has been giving the Imperial Fists some long-deserved spotlight, but just having their new guys beating berserkers like they were power ranger puddies grows old after a while. This is true overall but I do expect that there are going to be some pretty big twists/revelations/changes to the traditional lore about what happened at the end of the siege. It was always going to be the case though because that's inevitable with this setup and I can understand that turning people off.
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Aug 14, 2022 07:11
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Sephyr posted:I guess it was inevitable. The first phase of the Heresy brought a lot of new lore and character arcs that dilluted the 'certainties' of the setting (since we have a pretty good idea of how it -ends-). But now that everything is narrowing down to the finish, the surprises have already happened, we know who matter and who doesn't, what attacks will fail and which will succeed. We know that no matter how many times Primarch/Captain X fights his hated rival Primarch/Captain Y in the siege, it will end in a bit of a draw because both are still around later on, and there is less meat around the skeleton of the slugfests to distract from that fact the longer we go on. That's exactly the problem with prequels of a story with known plot beats. It's basically filler content at this point, and it's difficult to write interesting filler if you stretch them for too long. The Heresy and the Siege of Terra series have dragged for an eternity and it's goddamn time it ends once and for all.
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Aug 14, 2022 11:46
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/14/sunday-preview-black-library-heroes-on-the-page-and-the-tabletop-amid-an-arcane-cataclysm If there's anyone here who likes Rogal Dorn then next week Gav Thorpe's book about him goes up for pre-order in a limited edition format.
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Aug 14, 2022 18:16
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bunnyofdoom posted:But can you see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch? Sugar and the contrast to the cinnamon flavor. It being airy and crisp helps too but it's mostly the sugar like any brand breakfast cereal.
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Aug 14, 2022 21:28
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Cooked Auto posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/14/sunday-preview-black-library-heroes-on-the-page-and-the-tabletop-amid-an-arcane-cataclysm nooo
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Aug 14, 2022 22:04
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MariusLecter posted:Sugar and the contrast to the cinnamon flavor. It being airy and crisp helps too but it's mostly the sugar like any brand breakfast cereal.
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Aug 14, 2022 22:30
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Cooked Auto posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/14/sunday-preview-black-library-heroes-on-the-page-and-the-tabletop-amid-an-arcane-cataclysm Im a Dorn fanboy but im not spending my limited cash on a Gav Thorpe book
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Aug 14, 2022 22:46
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Speaking of Thorpe, I'm a third of the way into 'Luther', does it improve a bit or it's just more of the same till the end?
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Aug 14, 2022 23:03
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Angry Lobster posted:Speaking of Thorpe, I'm a third of the way into 'Luther', does it improve a bit or it's just more of the same till the end? I don't remember it not being more of the same, but I enjoyed it to be honest. I liked how it portrayed the evolution of the Dark Angels from the heresy to 40k with each successive chapter master asking Luther different questions and letting slip their outlook at their time and how things changed to get where we are now.
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Aug 15, 2022 06:07
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D-Pad posted:This is true overall but I do expect that there are going to be some pretty big twists/revelations/changes to the traditional lore about what happened at the end of the siege. It was always going to be the case though because that's inevitable with this setup and I can understand that turning people off. True, for good or ill. I mean, we have seen the whole event of the scattering of the primarchs retconned twice in the same series (First Heretic and Saturnine both give conflicting accounts), and this time there is no "well, it's just old degraded records and the fuzziness of time!" excuse. They are just going "um, gotta throw them a curveball for a twist, think of something!". A lot of the side-fluff from the early series was really good. The Imperius Secundus deal was an inspired idea, one I'd actually like to see revisited in the 42nd millenium if the writers have the guts. Lorgar going from flat fanatic to a well-intentioned, unstable leader manipulated by his foster parent(s) until he bloomed into full arch-villain. 'Angel Exterminatus' might be a terrible, terrible book, but the insight into Perturabo's lovely life was good. 'Scars' was a great book, perhaps the best loyalist-centered one, and did wonders to flesh out the legion beyong 'steppe barbarian go vroom'. 'Vengeful Spirit'....um....it certainly filled 300 pages? It seems the writers themselves are kind of tired at this point, and honestly I can't blame them. Having to walk on eggshells around so many set-in-stone storylines must be annoying. "Well, I need an epic duel on the walls of the palace. Can I use Sevatar as the bad guy? Ugh, no, he's with ADB and plus that's not how he dies, plus he has a fanbase and I can't just kill him like a chump. Same for Zso Sahaal. poo poo. Guess I'll make a new Night Lord commander, um, Zradu SpikeSword! People will surely care about him and it will mean something when he gets kicked off the walls!"
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Aug 15, 2022 08:38
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Sephyr posted:True, for good or ill. I mean, we have seen the whole event of the scattering of the primarchs retconned twice in the same series (First Heretic and Saturnine both give conflicting accounts), and this time there is no "well, it's just old degraded records and the fuzziness of time!" excuse. They are just going "um, gotta throw them a curveball for a twist, think of something!". Yeah the Siege has been weird in that they got rid of basically every heretic Legion. Alphas ducked out, Word Bearers ducked out (except a token force), Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children quit the field, Night Lords, token force, Thousand Sons, gently caress all of them there. Seems like its basically just World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard left. I see that it's a way of getting across that the tenacious defence plus the infighting led to the traitors running out of time and Horus doing his last ditch gambit, but in effect it makes the whole thing feel a bit anemic character wise. I guess some of it might be paying off in the next two books, or maybe they're laying the groundwork for Scouring novels (not unlikely).
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Aug 15, 2022 10:18
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Angry Lobster posted:Speaking of Thorpe, I'm a third of the way into 'Luther', does it improve a bit or it's just more of the same till the end? I have not read that book and indeed was not aware of it until reading your post, and I have no information about it that’s not contained in your post, but: no.
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Aug 15, 2022 14:10
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a lovely king posted:Yeah the Siege has been weird in that they got rid of basically every heretic Legion. Alphas ducked out, Word Bearers ducked out (except a token force), Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children quit the field, Night Lords, token force, Thousand Sons, gently caress all of them there. Seems like its basically just World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard left.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:48
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Plucky Brit posted:I'm okay with that, as otherwise it doesn't make much sense how three Legions could have held out against nine. The greatest fortress ever built?
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Aug 15, 2022 18:55
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Defended by the greatest living wall ever built (in a lab), defended by the greatest defenders ever built (in a lab). I mean look at how many Spartans it took to block the pass of Thermopylae.
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Aug 15, 2022 19:44
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