|
The best reason to watch the dub is that Void sounds incredible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdp3auoZ-Ds Void you might look like the Martian from Mars Attacks! but not moving your mouth let's the dub cast go wild. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 14, 2022 |
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 17:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 10:42 |
|
|
Good soup! posted:I really really wish they didn't recast the Japanese voices for the movies and 2016 because I loving love the original voice for guts and I had gotten so used to it from 97, the Dreamcast game (imported version hell yeah) and the PS2 game which did a bunch of scenes better than the most recent series which is embarrassing as hell lol Wtf yes it is
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
Berserk ending is lame if it does not involve Guts murdering the poo poo out of Griffith
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 21:24
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:Wtf yes it is lol yeah I love it and all, but there's still the occasional hammy delivery or situation like Sean Schemmel who sounds like he's playing every other background soldier so they all sound the same Given the time period it's still impressive they found a good range of actors, as Void sounds great (really all of the Godhand are cast well), Adon Coborlwitz, Foss, a bunch of other supporting characters are cast well at a time when they could just get any person to just disguise their voice and try to sound old/young and it comes off unintentionally funny or just bad That being said, Godo doesn't sound nearly old enough imo and it always bothered me somewhat
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:02
|
|
|
it is loving insane how many times sean schemmel shows up in that dub
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:25
|
|
|
And how little he varies his performance. Dude is so high on doing his Goku voice he can't do anything else.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:48
|
|
|
Good soup! posted:lol yeah I love it and all, but there's still the occasional hammy delivery or situation like Sean Schemmel who sounds like he's playing every other background soldier so they all sound the same And yet Sean Schemmel was also Godhand member Conrad so you’ve already admitted he was well cast no takebacks
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
I'm just saying if he's capable of voicing a giant demon thing with a unique voice he could put more effort into not half assing it with Gaston sounding exactly like Goku.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2022 23:06
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:And yet Sean Schemmel was also Godhand member Conrad so you’ve already admitted he was well cast no takebacks *breathing anxiously* ff...fuckin....
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 00:22
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:I'm just saying if he's capable of voicing a giant demon thing with a unique voice he could put more effort into not half assing it with Gaston sounding exactly like Goku. Tbf he probably was told to do the Goku voice by the voice director.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 07:51
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:Tbf he probably was told to do the Goku voice by the voice director. Be thankful the voice director didnt say otherwise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxOCmTs__Uk
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 10:13
|
|
|
Berserk still good, dear god the look on Guts' face. Wonder how pissed Casca is going to be when she's alert again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 16:33
|
|
|
I get the feeling that when Griffith returns to his kingdom, he'll leave Casca under the watch of Charlotte. Casca will attempt to escape, but the mere sight of the monsters roaming around guarding the castle will put her into panic attacks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 19:19
|
|
|
Mraagvpeine posted:I get the feeling that when Griffith returns to his kingdom, he'll leave Casca under the watch of Charlotte. Casca will attempt to escape, but the mere sight of the monsters roaming around guarding the castle will put her into panic attacks. Hoping for this, honestly. She deserves to eventually be able to power through her breakdowns on her own, and confront her own victimhood with a clear head -- which the Golden Age demonstrated she's strongest while maintaining. Bottom line: Berserk as a whole, in order to maintain the story, needs her to be as important as Guts and Griffith, and no longer a perpetual damsel without agency. If Berserk goes for another 10 years but it's 80% Casca's perspective, that'd be fine. Very interested in what kind of chemistry she's hopefully going to have with Sonia and the various "noble" apostles in their circle. She should, for certain, have a chance to form an opinion of the latter aside from "you're a victim of their kind." Meanwhile, as heartbreaking as Guts' situation now is, he's now in the precise spot where we discover if his found family and the self-actualization he's experienced over his journey are enough to keep him from going pure rage monster. In a way, this new conflict is what the story since the ending of the Conviction arc has all been for.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
The Notorious ZSB posted:Wonder how pissed Casca is going to be when she's alert again. Perhaps Griffith turning into the child will awaken her, but it was never enough before. The greater change mentally might be the absence of Guts. Though she always had an animalistic fear when he was near, there was still a pillar/guide for the group, and the group did support her. That's been lost. I don't see her just sitting down with Griffith for tea and saying, "Well I was greatly enamoured with you until Guts saved my life in the river, then the hundred men, then before we rescued you he brought me back emotionally, and I pitied you before you weNT AND hosed US OVER... you big meanie.  "
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 22:43
|
|
|
What's going to be interesting to me is that she's branded and being brought to a kingdom of Apostles- even if the normal Apostles can restrain themselves by pain of Griffith, there's loads of spiritual nastiness that's going to be all over her now that she's unprotected.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 23:04
|
|
|
Burkion posted:What's going to be interesting to me is that she's branded and being brought to a kingdom of Apostles- even if the normal Apostles can restrain themselves by pain of Griffith, there's loads of spiritual nastiness that's going to be all over her now that she's unprotected.  Godhand carryout, may I take your order? I'd like one Casca sandwich with a side of Guts please. That'll be three behelit, slide around to the dimensional window. Happy Chomping!
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 23:09
|
|
|
Burkion posted:What's going to be interesting to me is that she's branded and being brought to a kingdom of Apostles- even if the normal Apostles can restrain themselves by pain of Griffith, there's loads of spiritual nastiness that's going to be all over her now that she's unprotected. Also Sonia is slightly telepathic no? Casca going through Griffith related trauma around Sonia may sort of blow Griffith's cover with her at least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 23:38
|
|
|
Burkion posted:What's going to be interesting to me is that she's branded and being brought to a kingdom of Apostles- even if the normal Apostles can restrain themselves by pain of Griffith, there's loads of spiritual nastiness that's going to be all over her now that she's unprotected. I imagine night time in particular is going to be horrific.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2022 23:45
|
|
|
Mraagvpeine posted:I imagine night time in particular is going to be horrific.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 03:16
|
|
|
Housemate came back and we finished watching the third movie and its Eclipse scene. The dip into horror got a fun reaction, the rape not so much. That whole part of Casca's character arc has never ever sat well with me and it's hard to talk about because the few times I've brought it up in conversations about Berserk and how I feel it's gratuitous and in extremely poor taste I've always gotten back lovely responses arguing about "realism" and how being upset at the depiction means it sucessfully got the right emotional response. So it was nice to talk to someone else who agreed that that whole part of the eclipse was juvenile edgelord material. There's plenty of juvenile stuff in earlier Berserk where it's violence for violence sake but I can do without the constant sexual assault that veers into spank bait and borderling fridging hiding behind flimsy justifications for why it's an important bit of character growth. Is seeing your entire adopted family butchered by cosmic horrors not enough?
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Aug 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 13:18
|
|
|
Lucasar posted:Also Sonia is slightly telepathic no? Casca going through Griffith related trauma around Sonia may sort of blow Griffith's cover with her at least. I don't know if we'll get this, but I would not be surprised if Casca at least tried to shatter Charlotte's perspective of Griffith The Perfect Boy. In bringing Casca back to Falconia, Griffith may have committed a major mistake in letting his abuse victims talk to each other instead of keeping his deeds compartmentalized.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 15:03
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFkUvvTtlPg
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Housemate came back and we finished watching the third movie and its Eclipse scene. The dip into horror got a fun reaction, the rape not so much. That whole part of Casca's character arc has never ever sat well with me and it's hard to talk about because the few times I've brought it up in conversations about Berserk and how I feel it's gratuitous and in extremely poor taste I've always gotten back lovely responses arguing about "realism" and how being upset at the depiction means it sucessfully got the right emotional response. So it was nice to talk to someone else who agreed that that whole part of the eclipse was juvenile edgelord material. There's plenty of juvenile stuff in earlier Berserk where it's violence for violence sake but I can do without the constant sexual assault that veers into spank bait and borderling fridging hiding behind flimsy justifications for why it's an important bit of character growth. Is seeing your entire adopted family butchered by cosmic horrors not enough? I don't know what to say that isn't what you've already heard. it is supposed to be horrible. it's supposed to be the most horrible thing that could ever happen. I havent watched the movies, so I dunno how it goes, but it's like complaining about the scene in irreversible. how could it have been done differently, or more tastefully? done off screen? that would ruin the point. I do think berserk has a lot of pointless edgelord stuff, especially early on. then again, historically, that poo poo happened literally all the time. it still does. But I'd never say the eclipse was that. there's a reason that if anyone knows anything about berserk, it's the eclipse, because it's masterful storytelling.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
Nah the Eclipse definitely veers into the pornographic in its framing and it didn't have to. It's a choice, let's not pretend it couldn't have been done differently and achieved an equivalent result.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
In the Eclipse's case I do think a more 'tasteful' portrayal of the scene would have been less impactful, the entire sequence from the start is a no holds barred nightmare scene from everyone being murdered and eaten alive through to the rape scene. It's the reason I basically never recommend the manga to anyone but I do think the shockingly direct depiction is what makes it such an effective piece of horror too
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
Also more than just acting as a trauma point for Guts and Casca, everything about the Moonchild is intrinsically linked to that moment of rape.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 18:30
|
|
|
Mirello posted:I don't know what to say that isn't what you've already heard. it is supposed to be horrible. it's supposed to be the most horrible thing that could ever happen. I havent watched the movies, so I dunno how it goes, but it's like complaining about the scene in irreversible. how could it have been done differently, or more tastefully? done off screen? that would ruin the point. It's the gendered violence of Casca's rape specifically. Guts and Griffith have both been raped and it's treated as a horrible moment in their lives but not a defining moment for them in the way it is for Casca. The films up until that point had been surprisingly even-handed in its depiction of nudity and sexuality. Then the eclipse happens and Casca gets full tentacle and birdman rape with dramatic piano and a ground view of dick thrusting and its suddenly every other lovely fantasy story that treats raping women as a common means of motivating a male protagonist to kill the bad dudes. It sucks doubly for Casca because of the "raped to insanity" part of the affair. Guts and Griffith can get raped and move on with being control freaks or rage machines, but a woman getting raped and it ends up infantilizing her for a decade's worth of story updates. She suffers a huge loss of agency while acting as a vengeance motivator for a main male character who can shrug off being sodomized because he's so single-minded to not let it define him. Every person Casca ever cares for gets horribly mutilated and eaten and that's it, but no we have to rape just the woman at the eclipse because women have to get raped haven't you seen all the times before now where Casca was nearly raped well now here she is actually getting raped and you get to see it in all its gruesome detail for five pages or a grossly elaborate animation sequence that either works as a bitter conclusion to a 90s TV show or as a male revenge motivation for a film. Berserk had already shown multiple ways in which Casca has to deal with gender based violence and discrimination for taking on a male profession in a patriarchal society on top of also being a colored minority. What does the rape say to that struggle that isn't already implied? Like you said, the Eclipse is supposed to be the worst thing imaginable happening to the protagonists, but what does the rape part of that have to say about the story, the setting, or about us as people? Presenting it as historical and saying "that's just how things were back then" is a poor excuse to put rape in your story and without further context or exploration the lack of examination leads to conclusions like "Guts and Griffith can shrug off sodomy but a woman like Casca goes crazy from it." I honestly have no idea how you would change that particular part of the Eclipse and achieve the same intent but to me it feels like Miura was trying to tackle an extremely serious subject and missed the mark on execution and his early Berserk edginess really damages one of its best characters. It's like how Kojima flubbed super hard on the sexual violence against characters like Paz and Quiet in Metal Gear Solid 5. You can see what he might have been trying to accomplish but in the wider context of his body of work it comes off as ill informed, excessive and even sexist in its execution. And I don't believe that the argument of "that's the whole point!" should be used as a shield against any and all criticism. It's as if the mere discussion of a heavy topic like rape discounts any counterpoint. Now this isn't directed at you, personally. Those previous times I mentioned about this particular conversation WRT Berserk are from about ten years ago and with people who were pretty clearly into Berserk for the sex, violence and badassitude and because dark clearly equals mature. The kind of reading that a twenty year old would make versus someone at thirty with a lot more reading experience. So I don't like the defense that it couldn't be done differently or the "that's just the way things are" because it reminds me of those old conversations where I still wasn't comfortable with how Berserk handled rape and sexism. Watching the eclipse for the films was like opening an old wound and it got me thinking about how I feel the whole handling of rape in early Berserk (and even into later stuff) is not done particularly well, even if I don't really know how you could do it better.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 18:53
|
|
|
Again though, I think it comes back to the child. It's created through an act of loving sex, but then its nature is corrupted by Femto recreating that moment in a twisted mockery -- this leads to its peculiar existence which is also what leads to Griffith reincarnating himself, and everything that's come from that. I won't disagree about Casca being insane for a decade being a major misstep, although that's as much an issue of output as it is story pacing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:08
|
|
|
If art was made in a vacuum and we didn't have to wait so long for updates it wouldn't be as big an issue but because it did end up happening that way and taking ten years it's part of the conversation and it's frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
I definitely think there's a lot of validity in the argument that you can't really equate the sexual violence done to Casca to that done to Guts/Griffith. Not just because it doesn't wholly come to consume their characters in the way it does for Casca, but because Griffith and and Guts both actively work to get cathartic revenge by personally killing their respective rapists. Casca meanwhile just got abducted by hers - again - and even after having her sanity restored still can't so much as look at Guts without regressing to an incoherent mess. I'll reserve judgement on the recent plot developments until we see where Mori and company are going with it, but at least initially the whole thing is kinda gross and just smacks of Casca being an agentless damsel again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:22
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:If art was made in a vacuum and we didn't have to wait so long for updates it wouldn't be as big an issue but because it did end up happening that way and taking ten years it's part of the conversation and it's frustrating. On the other hand that should mean it's less of an issue on re-read and for those just getting into the series. But that's a whole other conversation about completed works vs ones still in progress and all that, I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:23
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:But that's a whole other conversation about completed works vs ones still in progress and all that, I suppose. Welcome to my number one hangup with serialized storytelling. The waiting, the waiting, the waiting, and all too often a conclusion that doesn't live up to the promises made. Here's hoping this one lands. Some day. A decade from now. Maybe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:25
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:Again though, I think it comes back to the child. It's created through an act of loving sex, but then its nature is corrupted by Femto recreating that moment in a twisted mockery -- this leads to its peculiar existence which is also what leads to Griffith reincarnating himself, and everything that's come from that. The issue is less the rape (it's problematic in isolation but serves a purpose within the story, though it's not like Miura couldn't have handwaved the corruption of the fetus and Casca's insanity as the product of non-specific demonic influence) and more the depiction. Miura managed to make Guts' rape horrific without several pages of graphic detail. It's gross like intended, yes, but I'd go so far as to say it is liable to overshoot and take the reader out of the moment. It might have been better, handled differently.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 19:26
|
|
|
The Casca rape is extremely super bad and the #1 reason that I and my friends who have watched it don't recommend Berserk to other people. As has been discussed above, it's not one thing, it's multiple things about it. It's execution, it's misogyny, it's the aftermath compared to other manly men who handle it like manly men, etc. Compare it to Game of Thrones, that series has like five rapes per season, they are central to characters arcs, but it's just depicted better on many levels. It also has a man getting tortured and mutilated for an entire season and it completely destroys him physically and mentally. GoT succeeds in showing that it is the world and the culture that is hosed up, and succeeds in showing that being a woman in this world sucks and it is wrong that this is the case. The Casca rape has a place thematically and it can be executed well, but it is not executed well in Berserk the Anime, Berserk the Manga, or Berserk the Trilogy Movies. To execute it well it would need to be less graphic, and avoid the three central problems of "Main female character existing only to get raped in order to progress the two lead male's arcs", "It's just needless edgelord stuff" and "Men handle rape by becoming badass berserkers, women handle rape by becoming mindless drooling babies". The third can be handled by not raping women all the loving time, and making men suffer similiarly and reacting similiarly - show that it's the world that's broken, not the gender. The needless edgelord issue is just presentation/execution, show less dickthrusting and get rid of the tentacles is a good start?? Maybe?? And keep at least some clothes on maybe?? The first I don't know how to handle but executing the eclipse differently would help - clearly show that Casca gets broken from the murder and sacrifice of all her friends, perhaps she is already more clearly 'gone' by the time Femto awakens. The actual scene itself maybe have Femto stare exclusively into Guts' eyes to show it is a pure revenge/hatred act. It's still problematic but less. To summarize it does makes sense in the plot but it is also extremely badly executed and is massively misogynistic and problematic in all the wrong ways as is. Your friends aren't reacting because it's "too edgy" they're reacting because it's childish and dumb and silly as is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 20:26
|
|
|
Depiction is a major element of it, as well as the quantity; sexual menace of a female cast member is nearly the norm, and when it occurs it is depicting more titillating than brutal, even if, narratively, it is supposed to be brutal and grotesque. We have the supposed depravity of the Eclipse, but the only character implied to have suffered in that way by the demonic hordes in any way is the lone woman, who is then barely-blemished and throwing back her head in moans. Farnese is stripped and nearly raped by a horse in her first appearance, and eventually learns that she doesn't want to be a knight and would rather take care of someone (...not a bad arc, but maybe emblematic). The women being assaulted by trolls are given a big needless splash panel of them being raped in various positions before we're given the horror of the situation as their stomachs split open. The demon womb exists, and that's all I need to loving say about that. Berserk as a series has some issues with women. I enjoy the series, I like its story arc, the way its characters develop, and the dark fantasy world. But it's telling when me and a friend were watching the movies we made bets with each other how many minutes Charlotte and Casca's scenes would go on, and from how many angles, and were very disappointed how close our estimates were.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
The rape is thematically relevant to the characters' arcs. Griffith appeared just when Casca was going to be raped as a child and threw her as sword, Guts learned how to allow the touch of other men after his rape thanks to the Bank of the Hawk (and Griffith never trying anything), and Griffith was willing to prostitute himself to get an army. It's intensely loaded that in this moment, Griffith says "I'm going to do this because I can, gently caress all of you." The depiction, however, is definitely pornographic and could have been handled better.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 21:35
|
|
|
Torquemadras posted:Legitimately one of the best scenes in the entire manga. Holy poo poo I only caught up to that scene this year and I actually teared up. Rickert fuckin went for it
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 22:13
|
|
|
I think the act itself was necessary in order to show how full of poo poo Griffith is. Prior to the rape we are shown how all of Griffith's life has led to the sacrifice - between causality, the manipulations of the godhand and just who Griffith *is* as a person the audience is shown that Griffith cannot possibly say no to the sacrifice. Between the year of nonstop torture breaking him completely and the sacrifice being presented to him neatly as a sunk cost fallacy it is almost tempting to empathize with Griffith - the rape, though, I always felt was supposed to roughly dispel that illusion and show how deeply hosed up Griffith is. One brief moment of tenderness spied between Guts and Casca drove him into such a fit of jealousy that he had to top off the cruelty of the sacrifice with even more cruelty just to make a point. Now the depiction and aftermath I 100% agree, there was absolutely no need to make it so pornographic and insufficient work was done to explain in any manner why Guts would leave the eclipse with a chip on his shoulder while Casca is mentally obliterated - especially since it was just shown how much grit and resolve Casca has. If the plot *had* to go in that direction fine, in fact I do think it did a decent job of contextualizing Gut's growth through the Black Swordsman arc, but at least show to us that it was the product of dark magic and not just rape - Casca deserved that much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 22:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 10:42 |
|
|
Super Rad posted:I think the act itself was necessary in order to show how full of poo poo Griffith is. Prior to the rape we are shown how all of Griffith's life has led to the sacrifice - between causality, the manipulations of the godhand and just who Griffith *is* as a person the audience is shown that Griffith cannot possibly say no to the sacrifice. Between the year of nonstop torture breaking him completely and the sacrifice being presented to him neatly as a sunk cost fallacy it is almost tempting to empathize with Griffith - the rape, though, I always felt was supposed to roughly dispel that illusion and show how deeply hosed up Griffith is. One brief moment of tenderness spied between Guts and Casca drove him into such a fit of jealousy that he had to top off the cruelty of the sacrifice with even more cruelty just to make a point. Doesn't really make it any less problematic from a storytelling standpoint or anything, but imo to Griffith the rape was never really about Casca, but Guts. Griffith's perceived "ownership" of Guts always had a sexual component to it, all but pushing the reader's face into it when Griffith's way of coping with being defeated in a duel and losing Guts is to seek out Charlotte - a woman he knows he can easily dominate - and have sex with here while thinking about Guts. Likewise Griffith was aware of Casca's affection and almost god-like reverence of him, and actively exploited those feelings when it was convenient for him. So to see Guts and Casca together romantically is yet another perceived loss of his dominance over Guts: that Guts was not only able to best him in combat, but also able to steal away the affections of a woman who had before literally worshiped the ground Griffith walked on. Of course in the eclipse, the script is flipped. Griffith and Guts' roles of crippled and healthy are reversed, Griffith's power has been multiplied to god-like levels that Guts stands no chance against, and Griffith makes a point of raping Casca directly in front of Guts. The whole thing is Griffith's way of taking back his twisted sense of domination over Guts in all facets. This is - and I cannot overstate this - supremely hosed up and speaks to just how warped Griffith was as a person even before becoming Femto. As for the actual depection itself - and the general willingness of Berserk to rather salaciously portray rape up to about the Troll cave stuff - yeah it's pretty gross and I've ultimately come to think it really drags the work as a whole down, even while it is undeniably a core part of Berserk's identity. I am really glad Miura seemed to drop that poo poo pretty much entirely after the Troll cave but man it sucks even from just a practical perspective because I wanna be able to recommend the series to people but know they're gonna eventually hit the poo poo like Wyald or the Eclipse or rape horse and come back to me with an honestly deserving "what the gently caress did you tell me to read?!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2022 22:45
|
|