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A Buttery Pastry posted:A colleague of mine looked at the cost of batteries for a client, IIRC it was closer to 250k DKK to store enough electricity for a 200m2 house for one winter day, electricity for the heat pump included. My brother in law used to sell solar panels so I have had some discussions with him regarding the possibilities of being self sufficient (to prep for when Putin invades) and the whole concept falls on the batteries. As we have an electric car ( a fancy Zoe), being able to charge with your own electricity sounds attractive, but given that the car gets used for work commuting, it is never home when it needs charging and batteries won’t suffice. The 10-15 years of break even on solar panels is of course without a battery, and would rather be 20 years with a battery. The issue with solar is of course that you are not using the electricity you produce because you are not home when it is produced. Best use case I figured out for solar would be if one combines it with AC (which is kinda needed in a well isolated house during warm summers). A diesel generator is the cheap option here.
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Aug 15, 2022 07:32
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McCloud posted:If anyone cares about V's approach I'm sure it goes against some EU directive against the free market and will be wildly opposed by all non vattenfall companies.
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Aug 15, 2022 07:34
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McCloud posted:If anyone cares about V's approach If I understand what they're suggesting correctly, it would require some Light Swexit and would definitely require blowing up our agreements within Nordpool. Some people I work with claim that France more or less gets away with something similar, but Continental electricity markets are a mess.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:05
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Groda posted:If I understand what they're suggesting correctly, it would require some Light Swexit and would definitely require blowing up our agreements within Nordpool.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:10
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The whole integration and marketization of the european grid feels like a big rear end misstake. Also promotes quarterly thinking when we need quater-century thinking. The only real solution I see is firewood. And that's gonna get expensive if you buy it too since it will increase in popularity. Ideally you'd own a few hectares of forest and get your own firewood with an old tractor. Far from a solution for anyone, not me either. The best I can go is buy a tractor load, 10-12m3 of whole logs, fresh and unsplit, then process and dry the firewood myself.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:11
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His Divine Shadow posted:The whole integration and marketization of the european grid feels like a big rear end misstake. Also promotes quarterly thinking when we need quater-century thinking.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:24
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Cardiac posted:So we agree then, the issue is lack of production in southern Sweden. There will be a test SMR reactor in the coming years. I think we agree. Cardiac posted:So what is your solution then? Wind is too volatile and needs to be stabilised by other means, so what other means? Also requires an absurd amount of space. And solar have similar issues. More of everything, basically. Cover every cost efficient surface in solar panels, wind farms all over, especially sea-based (even if the claims that they wreck the sea-life are true, our current ways will kill it all pretty soon). Create an absurd amount of excess and export it or use it to store energy as hydrogen or molten salts. The conversion losses are nothing compared to literally millions of years where nothing could convert biomass to carbon dioxide. Fill the government coffers with cash from the rest of Europe. The government could do a studielån for solar panels to make it afordable for anyone. Bip-bop, so simple.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:29
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Aside from storage as energy, there is also the possibility of storing as processed goods/materials. Sufficiently automated factories that can be spun up/down based on energy production could do a lot to offset variability, given that industry is responsible for about a third of electricity demand in Europe. The embodied energy of say a brick for example is far higher than the energy density of batteries of the same weight, plus they're safer to store, so in that case it wouldn't even require more storage than the battery solution.
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Aug 15, 2022 08:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Aside from storage as energy, there is also the possibility of storing as processed goods/materials. Sufficiently automated factories that can be spun up/down based on energy production could do a lot to offset variability, given that industry is responsible for about a third of electricity demand in Europe. The embodied energy of say a brick for example is far higher than the energy density of batteries of the same weight, plus they're safer to store, so in that case it wouldn't even require more storage than the battery solution. And with smart technology you could schedule your dishwasher and other appliances to start running only when the price of electricity goes down enough. *at work* "Sorry but I have to run home. I just got a message that wind power is producing super cheap electricity right now so my sauna will be ready in 30 minutes. Tjänare!"
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Aug 15, 2022 09:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Integration would make sense if it was run as a pan-national state-owned organization from North Africa to the Arctic, with just the mandate of delivering the most reliable, least polluting, most consistently priced, and cheapest electricity for the entire "electricity union". eh that is basically what the whole ACER/nordpool/etc conglomerate is - it's a means of homogenising electricity prices as far as the grid will allow through market intervention - and if this is your priority, a market is realistically the best tool to use given our institutional context. the problem is that this homogenisation is obviously not in the interests of people with a higher baseline power consumption, such as countries with a large electrochemical sector who use electricity for heating, and it's also not in the baseline interest of the people suddenly paying ten times as much per kWh as they used to. as higher prices become normalised the outrage will slowly die down, but the net effect will be the closure of a bunch of industries, extremely costly investments in non-electric heating systems (realistically lots of people will simply burn wood for a long transition period), and reduced purchasing power among "ordinary people" as the price of everything increases.
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Aug 15, 2022 09:40
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I would rather see a decentralized system where each country is nominally self-sufficient and cross border transfers are mainly for fine tuning and balancing rather than country A trying to power country B.
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Aug 15, 2022 09:41
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His Divine Shadow posted:I would rather see a decentralized system where each country is nominally self-sufficient and cross border transfers are mainly for fine tuning and balancing rather than country A trying to power country B. well, since the main cost of this kind of transition is necessarily eaten by the working classes in our present political economy, i tend to agree. under more ideal circumstances, it would be nice to have this stuff calibrated in a way which doesn't just translate to a transfer of funds from people to companies* however *yes yes, often state-owned, i know
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Aug 15, 2022 09:49
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V. Illych L. posted:eh that is basically what the whole ACER/nordpool/etc conglomerate is - it's a means of homogenising electricity prices as far as the grid will allow through market intervention - and if this is your priority, a market is realistically the best tool to use given our institutional context. V. Illych L. posted:the problem is that this homogenisation is obviously not in the interests of people with a higher baseline power consumption, such as countries with a large electrochemical sector who use electricity for heating, and it's also not in the baseline interest of the people suddenly paying ten times as much per kWh as they used to.
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Aug 15, 2022 09:55
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I'm disappointed that the state can't figure out a way to produce and export electricity that benefits the common people. We should be able to finance all kinds of wild common goods with the profits, if only there was a way of keeping the profits out of the hands of capitalists. Sadly that is not allowed.
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Aug 15, 2022 10:03
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Can't you have large scale energy storage by building a dam and by wind and solar pumping the water back into it even as you spend it? I'm sure I'm the first one to come up with this so it's my idea btw.
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Aug 15, 2022 11:03
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Crespolini posted:Can't you have large scale energy storage by building a dam and by wind and solar pumping the water back into it even as you spend it? I'm sure I'm the first one to come up with this so it's my idea btw. Yes, now find a place near the powerplants in southern Sweden with abundant water and no NIMBY locals where you can build this storage facility.
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Aug 15, 2022 11:14
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Zudgemud posted:Yes, now find a place near the powerplants in southern Sweden with abundant water and no NIMBY locals where you can build this storage facility. Vättern? Surely Motala will gladly sacrifice itself for the common good.
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Aug 15, 2022 11:20
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Arashikage would have loved the last few pages. RIP
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Aug 15, 2022 16:42
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I see the value of having of some export/import capacity. But the premise of a market model is that the other side does not catastrophically mismanage their own system. Otherwise there will never a upside to marketization. At some point it becomes a matter of not wanting to subsidize the shortsigthed decisions of other countries at the expense of your own people. We are getting close to that point. Certainly any nation should be allowed to take measures to prevent energy rationing by restricting export as and when necessary. We can debate what the treshold "necessary" should be but not the principle. Solidarity is nice but only when both sides act in good faith and never to the point of self-destruction. '
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Aug 15, 2022 17:05
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McCloud posted:If anyone cares about V's approach Price discrimination across electricity zones is a frequent topic in the latest revision (2019) of the relevant directives. It is not allowed, which is logical given that it goes the entire intent of the common electricity market. Going against the EU on this would also be tricky given that it involves non-Swedish organizations which could simply refuse to follow new laws until forced to do so by courts (which is unlikely to happen given what I mentioned before). The current pricing algorithm is also EU-controlled which would further complicate circumventing it by unlawful means. Groda posted:Some people I work with claim that France more or less gets away with something similar, but Continental electricity markets are a mess. They're wrong. The commission released a long list of approved and recommended measures to deal with the pricing-problem and many of the examples people list (Spain, Portugal) are from that very list of measures. To summarize, the EU allows a broad swath of measures that work around the pricing mechanism such as direct household aid, non-carbon profit taxes, carbon subsidies, non-discriminatory price limits and so on.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That is absolutely not "basically what it is". I'm talking large-scale deliberately designed integration on a continental scale, not the current system of having the biggest connections between areas operating under the same conditions where no producer gives a poo poo about the price because people can't just stop using electricity. well in that case i'd also like a pony and effective, concerted action against our disintegrating environment. there are conflicting interests here (not least a lacking will to completely overhaul the continent's electrical grid and production capabilities), and our mode of resolving those conflicts is to abstract them into financialised markets with consumers having to adapt. i do not think that this is a good way of resolving them, but what we've got now is in a very real sense an attempt at taking your suggestion seriously in the present european political-economical context. as of right now, we're in what i think it's fair to characterise as a minor crisis which could yet become a major crisis relating to the cost of electric power in norway and sweden. asserting some protectionist measures in order to avoid rationing - imo a country which is a clear and consistent net exporter of something should not be talking about rationing as a possibility unless something's prevented it from producing whatever it was exporting - is a proposed way out which it is very possible to imagine. ideas about a total infrastructural overhal are both far in the future and rather utopian and so do not seem terribly relevant imo
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Aug 15, 2022 17:45
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V. Illych L. posted:well in that case i'd also like a pony and effective, concerted action against our disintegrating environment. there are conflicting interests here (not least a lacking will to completely overhaul the continent's electrical grid and production capabilities), and our mode of resolving those conflicts is to abstract them into financialised markets with consumers having to adapt. i do not think that this is a good way of resolving them, but what we've got now is in a very real sense an attempt at taking your suggestion seriously in the present european political-economical context. In contrast, your suggestion is risking a trade war with the EU.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:03
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Speaking of protectionist measures, looking good so far: https://www.di.se/nyheter/norge-vill-sakra-elforsorjning-planerar-exportstopp/ Unfortunately I can only read the intro.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:28
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A Buttery Pastry posted:My suggestion is a reform that would support basically every industry in Europe, in a manner that is basically just a continuation of existing developments. Like, this is all stuff that is already happening, just way slower than anyone with a brain would like. Yeah, the end point might seem a bit utopian perhaps, but this is actually a thing where the interest of the populace, capital and even our imperial overlords can align, so the EU might eventually get there. yes, or they could simply dump some of the costs onto consumers and keep the public budget relatively balanced, a long-standing and very important policy commitment which is chronically difficult to achieve. i do not understand what in the EU's recent history makes you think that what's happening now wrt electricity markets is not happening as the EU basically wants it to - it's clearly not being held up by recalcitrant nordic countries. i remain confident that the EU will not start an all-out trade war with its biggest gas supplier in the run-up to its most difficult winter energy-wise in decades, especially not over something as manifestly understandable to most politicians as "my party is evaporating and we need to avoid blackouts". germany's posted its first export deficit in a long time this year. a lot of the industries that are going away are not coming back, and a trade war with scandinavia, or even just norway, would make this much worse. i genuinely don't think that the germans can take the hit - and if they can't, the EU can't. we can, of course, simply capitulate and hand over our resources without confrontation, continuing our slide into becoming European Minor #3 rather than trying to retain some measure of social democracy, but i personally think that the risk of insisting on sovereignty is worth it. or rather: i don't think that we can credibly claim to be meaningfully left-influenced countries if we don't try to negotiate when we have the strongest hand we're ever going to have.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:30
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V. Illych L. posted:yes, or they could simply dump some of the costs onto consumers and keep the public budget relatively balanced, a long-standing and very important policy commitment which is chronically difficult to achieve. i do not understand what in the EU's recent history makes you think that what's happening now wrt electricity markets is not happening as the EU basically wants it to - it's clearly not being held up by recalcitrant nordic countries. But yeah, you got a point about gas.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:36
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Crespolini posted:Can't you have large scale energy storage by building a dam and by wind and solar pumping the water back into it even as you spend it? I'm sure I'm the first one to come up with this so it's my idea btw. You can, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the most feasible and widely used method of energy storage in the world by a significant margin as well.
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Aug 15, 2022 20:12
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Mymla posted:You can, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the most feasible and widely used method of energy storage in the world by a significant margin as well. I don't think everyone knows about the Crespolini method, as we should be calling it. I keep seeing politicans in the news saying we have no choice but to export wind power since it can't be stored and stuff.
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Aug 15, 2022 20:46
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Crespolini posted:I don't think everyone knows about the Crespolini method, as we should be calling it. I keep seeing politicans in the news saying we have no choice but to export wind power since it can't be stored and stuff.
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Aug 15, 2022 20:56
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Daming up the Baltic sea could flood Denmark, so we should dam up the Baltic sea.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:31
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Rincewinds posted:Daming up the Baltic sea could flood Denmark, so we should dam up the Baltic sea. It’s already dammed up by Kattegat.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We could build a wall around the Baltic and just use it as a giant reservoir. This would have much less of an environmental impact than drowning land, plus it'd allow us to close of certain mercury poisoned rivers. Anything to stop these walrus invasions, please!
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Aug 15, 2022 21:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Aside from storage as energy, there is also the possibility of storing as processed goods/materials. Sufficiently automated factories that can be spun up/down based on energy production could do a lot to offset variability, given that industry is responsible for about a third of electricity demand in Europe. The solution to all this bullshit is first and foremost to tell zee germans to go eat a dick all day every day until their nukes are back online, second all the nukes everywhere and third accelerate grid-scale storage. Cardiac posted:Finally, installing solar panels now have a break even of 5 years instead of 10-15 years due to the electricity price. But you won’t be self sufficient on that, since the sun doesn’t shine when you need the electricity and batteries are expensive and low capacity. Still requires one to fork out 100-200k, which is not something everyone can do. But again, it should all be loving grid-managed, so everyone gets to have power, not just everyone who can throw 200ksek at the problem. Crespolini posted:Can't you have large scale energy storage by building a dam and by wind and solar pumping the water back into it even as you spend it? I'm sure I'm the first one to come up with this so it's my idea btw. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 23:13
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RE: solar panel chat A relative of mine recently told me they're installing a hundred solar panels on their farm elsewhere here in Norway. Apparently the panels will be connected directly to the grid rather to the farm itself. Instead, the household gets some kind of compensation/benefit as a power supplier. Unfortunately I can't remember what the exact agreement was, but basically it's a scheme that avoids the local battery storage issue by instead letting the farm both supply and rely on the grid, without having to worry about high bills. Sounded like a pretty good initiative to me at least.
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Aug 16, 2022 01:10
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MiddleOne posted:Price discrimination across electricity zones is a frequent topic in the latest revision (2019) of the relevant directives. It is not allowed, which is logical given that it goes the entire intent of the common electricity market. Going against the EU on this would also be tricky given that it involves non-Swedish organizations which could simply refuse to follow new laws until forced to do so by courts (which is unlikely to happen given what I mentioned before). I see, it's as i figured then. Bit disappointing that V's suggestion is just a hollow campaign promise. Would have been better to just have Uncle Sven cut a check as compensation. Are there any parties that offer solutions that are workable?
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Aug 16, 2022 02:23
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ThaumPenguin posted:RE: solar panel chat Who is cleaning them? Sounds like a scam.
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Aug 16, 2022 07:53
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evil_bunnY posted:You're immediately showing you've never been near industrial work in a professional setting. Industrial power users either need reliable power because their poo poo depreciates (fixed costs, planned worked hours, all that good poo poo) and they're price-inelastic, or they don't give too much of a poo poo about when they draw gargantuan amounts of power, and they already get bulk discounts, *and* discounts for not turning on their gargantuan power sinks in time of grid (near)-overload. thotsky posted:Who is cleaning them? Sounds like a scam.
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Aug 16, 2022 07:58
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thotsky posted:Who is cleaning them? Sounds like a scam. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 08:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A company will give a poo poo about when they draw gargantuan amounts of power if it makes a difference on the bottom line, and that balance is basically just down to how much you charge and the taxes levied. Get rid of bulk discounts, make taxes scale to the current cost of electricity for businesses, and suddenly the input cost of electricity swings wildly depending on when you draw on it.
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Aug 16, 2022 10:45
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evil_bunnY posted:There's already periods (usually when it's both sunny and windy) when the grid operators will literally pay you to take power off their hands. The problem is not so much on the load side, it's that renewables are both variable+unpredictable and there's not really non-price mechanisms for generation-shedding. Everyone needs more baseload and grid storage, because resiliency (not just reliability) isn't priced in correctly, because number must go up. There should be room for electrolysis plants that turn on when needed to produce hydrogen then.
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Aug 16, 2022 11:41
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evil_bunnY posted:There's already periods (usually when it's both sunny and windy) when the grid operators will literally pay you to take power off their hands. The problem is not so much on the load side, it's that renewables are both variable+unpredictable and there's not really non-price mechanisms for generation-shedding. Everyone needs more baseload and grid storage, because resiliency (not just reliability) isn't priced in correctly, because number must go up. Everybody loves to talk about this, but nobody has the energy to talk about the agreements that power companies have with large consumers to take things offline in order to keep the grid from collapsing. Load-shedding happens a lot more frequently, but isn't as sexy.
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Aug 16, 2022 11:53
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