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Epicurius posted:It's still an incredibly popular system. So was 3rd edition. Unfortunately looks like history's repeating itself where you'll probably end up with another generation that refuses to even acknowledge it's possible to play another system.
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Aug 13, 2022 05:31
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Agents are GO! posted:Yes, only approved folks should be able to create D&D material. The ends of preventing another d20 deluge justify the means tbh
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Aug 13, 2022 07:27
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KobunFan posted:I think one of the more interesting things about playing a game with Christian themes in it is you have to all agree to what lore you are dealing with, because a lot of the popular images of Christianity don't come from anything near a source written by someone in authority. A lot of it comes from Dante's trilogy. Have you read In Nomine?
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Aug 13, 2022 13:53
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Piell posted:If Jesus doesn't die on a cross but instead by getting cut in half by a greataxe, Christianity gets a lot more badass symbol to wear around and put on church walls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V4Yzif8jQY
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Aug 13, 2022 15:44
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exmachina posted:Have you read In Nomine? No, what's it about?
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Aug 13, 2022 16:53
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exmachina posted:Have you read In Nomine? KobunFan posted:No, what's it about? In Nominese nuts. I assume they're talking about the Steve Jackson RPG from the 90s (which IIRC was a localization of a European game?). Players are angels/devils trying to get humans to do stuff to further their goals. Part of your character is which archangel or demonic prince you're aligned with so it kinda sorta allows for room for competing versions of Christianity to be around in the same world but competing with each other through that. Amusingly it uses a D666 system where you roll 2D6 against a target number to pass/fail at doing a thing, then you roll another D6 to influence how badly you succeeded or failed. "In Nomine" is also a genre of classical music where you have multiple simultaneous melodies, and I remember the game sticks with that with a lot of musical terminology for all of the stuff going on. I never played it myself but remember it seeming pretty cool.
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Aug 13, 2022 18:36
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Neo Rasa posted:In Nominese nuts. The setting is very interesting in that 90s-era lets-skewer-sacred-cows sort of way, and it's VERY customizable with a lot of dials. There's explicit fluff (and some crunch) support for lots of different style of games. Are you fighting for Heaven or Hell? Super powered Celestials, or mortal Soldiers? Cold War intrigue or rear end-whupping extravaganza? High contrast good/evil Heaven and Hell or dingy gray "everybody sucks, there are no heroes" low-contrast grimdark? Any Archangel or Demon Prince can be set up as the primary Big Bad of the campaign, and there's a LOT of internal conflict on each side as well to make things even more exciting. The problem is that the system is a bloody mess. The basic mechanic is... functional, but the various powers you can have are all over the place, no attempt at balance and very little trying to make sure the game won't break if you put these two pieces together. If your table is fine with playing fast and loose using the rules as narrative guidelines it will work perfectly well, but there's a lot of potential for system collapse if people try to treat it as D&D meets the Book of Enoch.
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Aug 13, 2022 18:49
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Epicurius posted:It's still an incredibly popular system. That's the issue, yes.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:05
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Neo Rasa posted:I assume they're talking about the Steve Jackson RPG from the 90s (which IIRC was a localization of a European game?).
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Aug 13, 2022 19:24
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Thank you, mods. Good thread title.
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Aug 13, 2022 19:34
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Xander77 posted:Huh. On that note, did anyone ever end up playing the... roleplaying version? Not sure what to call it... of Fighting Fantasy \ Sorcery? I saw it in local bookstores well before I ever saw a real D&D book, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone reminiscing about it online. Actually the first RPG I ever read. I owned all 3 books. Never convinced my friends to play it, though.
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Aug 13, 2022 21:27
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Xander77 posted:Huh. On that note, did anyone ever end up playing the... roleplaying version? Not sure what to call it... of Fighting Fantasy \ Sorcery? I saw it in local bookstores well before I ever saw a real D&D book, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone reminiscing about it online. There's a second edition available on DriveThrough, and if you are into retroclones, Troika! is the place to go, although the one time I played it people weren't using the initiative system as is.
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Aug 13, 2022 22:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There's a second edition available on DriveThrough, and if you are into retroclones, Troika! is the place to go, although the one time I played it people weren't using the initiative system as is. Because the initiative rules are hilariously bad. Like, I personally was rendered entirely useless once for an extended combat sequence just from how the system works. I wasn't even attacked, the rules dictated that I wasn't allowed to play. Just sat there vamping jokes out of character for well over an hour. The fluff is great and evocative for Troika! but the rules manage to be worse than taking prompts from the fluff and doing diceless improv. Following the rules will actively stop you from having fun.
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Aug 13, 2022 23:30
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Xiahou Dun posted:Because the initiative rules are hilariously bad. Personally, I was looking forward to being able to go on an extended bathroom break mid-fight. 
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Aug 14, 2022 01:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Personally, I was looking forward to being able to go on an extended bathroom break mid-fight. Hoss you gotta work on your diet if you’re scheduling hour+ bathroom breaks. And it wasn’t mid-fight, it was the whole fight. I did precisely nothing the entire time.
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Aug 14, 2022 02:24
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Epicurius posted:It's called the Cucle of the Baptist and meant to represent the variant itinerant baptizers (not limited to John the Baptist) who were wandering around Judea. Your Wild Shape can be used to give you a transcendent form. You get temporary hit points, and advantage on Charisma rolls and concentration roles. 'are you going to get your baby baptized?' 'no, none of the priests around here are 6th level anyway. I'm not going all the way to Judea just for a +2 AC bonus.'
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Aug 14, 2022 02:59
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Hey, in 5e, you take any bonus that comes your way. A +2 to AC that lasts until your character takes a bath would be amazing. ...I may not understand baptisms.
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Aug 14, 2022 05:28
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Xander77 posted:Huh. On that note, did anyone ever end up playing the... roleplaying version? Not sure what to call it... of Fighting Fantasy \ Sorcery? I saw it in local bookstores well before I ever saw a real D&D book, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone reminiscing about it online. Yeah it was the first RP game I ever played and the only one I DMed. Used to do it at lunch with my friends at school
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Aug 14, 2022 23:33
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Epicurius posted:It's still an incredibly popular system. There's nothing inherently wrong with D20, or at least, not the d20+modifiers vs. target number mechanic. Several good and well-supported games were based on D20. But the vast majority of content produced for it was low-effort garbage. 5e is bad, and most content produced for it is low-effort garbage. I'd gladly play a 5e-compatible Hellboy that wasn't lazy dreck, but it is what it is. Talking about the specific Biblical games ITT: D20 Testament didn't have to be bad, because there's no fundamental incompatibility between running a game in ancient Canaan and a d20-based resolution mechanic. But they did it by starting with D&D 3e and modifying it, which was inevitably going to be a hash. Same problem with the Adventurer's Guide to the Bible. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 15:26
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Think of d20 as the TRPG equivalent of Call of Duty, complete with all the attendant effects on the industry, and you might start to see the problem.
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Aug 15, 2022 16:26
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Halloween Jack posted:5e is bad, and most content produced for it is low-effort garbage. I'd gladly play a 5e-compatible Hellboy that wasn't lazy dreck, but it is what it is. We're coming at this from different perspectives because I like 5e and was ok with 3.5.
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Aug 15, 2022 16:42
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A biblical game should obviously be based on RuneQuest.
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Aug 15, 2022 16:51
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mossyfisk posted:A biblical game should obviously be based on RuneQuest. The Last Supper would only be improved by the presence of talking ducks
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Aug 15, 2022 17:19
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Triskelli posted:The Last Supper would only be improved by the presence of talking ducks And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me." They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?" Except for the Eurmali, who was losing his poo poo laughing.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:25
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And the. They kill him on a giant death rune.
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Aug 15, 2022 22:18
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As a person who read 2e rulebooks, played 3.5 AND d20 Modern AND the Storyteller System AND a handful of other systems, I can say that 5e is definitely not low effort. I don't know what your problem is with it. 3.5 was, yes, a mess of bonuses and ways to completely break the system but 5e did a good job cleaning up that problem. It's still not perfect, no system is, but it's a definite step forward and with the 5e version of d20 Modern coming out, I can only see it getting better.
KobunFan fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 04:16
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KobunFan posted:As a person who read 2e rulebooks, played 3.5 AND d20 modern AND the Storyteller System AND a handful of other systems, I can say that 5e is definitely not low effort. I don't know what your problem is with it. The game is just reheated 3.X typed up from memory but with a lot less content. It's one of the single laziest games ever made. Also, you should probably try something besides d20 and oWoD at some point in your life. Everything you listed is generally cited as examples of "bad design carried along by nostalgia", especially Storyteller. Storyteller is so bad the game rips itself in half because they hosed up the math : you eventually start getting worse at things the higher your stats. Or is this like a joke? Am I being trolled here?
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Aug 16, 2022 04:21
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girl dick energy posted:Thank you, mods. Good thread title. If nothing else, I saw all these recent posts and was going to suggest it.
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Aug 16, 2022 06:31
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Xiahou Dun posted:The game is just reheated 3.X typed up from memory but with a lot less content. It's one of the single laziest games ever made. What the gently caress are you talking about? If you mean "botches at difficulty 10 happen more often with larger dice pools" that is an edge case fixed over 25 years ago. If you mean you get diminishing returns, that is entirely intended.
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Aug 16, 2022 10:35
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KobunFan posted:As a person who read 2e rulebooks, played 3.5 AND d20 Modern AND the Storyteller System AND a handful of other systems, I can say that 5e is definitely not low effort. I don't know what your problem is with it. The basic problem with 5e is that it has lots of rules that don't actually matter and just trail off into nothingness. Because it's D&D, it has to have a bunch of stuff that most people won't use, but people would scream bloody murder about if they didn't include it. This is the problem with a franchise that runs on the nostalgia and doubleplusgood tummyfeels of a few old men. There are price lists for how many pennies a ladder (or whatever) costs, even though that doesn't matter past level 2 or 3 at the most. There are rules for how long it takes to pick a lock, but zero time pressure, because this isn't Brown Box D&D where we assume the entire game takes place in the dungeon and check for wandering monsters every ten minutes. The game is supposedly gridless and "theatre of the mind," but everything is statted out as if you were using a grid with 5' squares. (This one was purely a sop to grognards. They broke their combat system because Mike Mearls wanted to jerk off some damaged freaks on a message board.) It's a bunch of rules in search of an actual game. What every actually well-made iteration of D&D has in common--and I'm including everything from retroclones to PBTA games like Fellowship--is that it's an actual game that was actually made for people who want a specific playstyle.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:02
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exmachina posted:What the gently caress are you talking about? If you mean "botches at difficulty 10 happen more often with larger dice pools" that is an edge case fixed over 25 years ago. If you mean you get diminishing returns, that is entirely intended. Yes, the botch-math was fixed. When it became the Storyelling system which we're explicitly not talking about. (I didn't make the stupid names, don't look at me.) Although the real sin was variable target-number vs. variable dice-pool and I just didn't mention that because how botches work is funnier. oWoD's math falls apart almost instantly, because there isn't any. The game is entirely based around tummy feels because I guess they stopped teaching probability in elementary school down in Georgia.
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Aug 16, 2022 15:45
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Good rules matter a lot for TT RPGs, but good DMs and good groups matter even more. That's why bad rule systems have managed to skate along for so long in this hobby. Game design is only the 2nd most important thing when creating these games, rather than the first. This even bleeds over to board games where some of the worst designed popular board games (Xia, Firefly, Munchkins) are the ones that have the most RPG influence. To bring it back to politics, zoo management has become a more popular theme for euro style board games now. I'm thinking of games like Ark Nova, Barenpark, New York Zoo, Dinosaur Island, and Draftosaurus. I guess it's a nicer flavor text than the industrialism, old colonial industry, or trading themes. At first glance, zoos are way less problematic than those themes. As for more political explicit games, I really liked High Treason: The Trial of Louis Riel, and I am looking forward to that designer's second game Corrupt Bargain: The 1824 Presidential Election.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:58
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yes, the botch-math was fixed. When it became the Storyelling system which we're explicitly not talking about. (I didn't make the stupid names, don't look at me.) It was fixed in Revised edition, V:tM revised at the latest.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:00
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And it was a super edge case, in any case. Firstly, difficulty 10 only. Literally the most difficult thing you can imagine. Secondly, it wasnt that you got worse at the thing, merely that the increased number of dice meant you botched more often. You succeeded more often too. And like I said it was fixed, in Storyteller, before the nWoD was a thing.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:07
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exmachina posted:And it was a super edge case, in any case. Firstly, difficulty 10 only. Literally the most difficult thing you can imagine. Secondly, it wasnt that you got worse at the thing, merely that the increased number of dice meant you botched more often. You succeeded more often too. And like I said it was fixed, in Storyteller, before the nWoD was a thing. Sure. The variable target numbers are still a big enough problem to make the point meaningless, so I don’t care enough to argue.
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Aug 16, 2022 23:28
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Mentioned earlier in the thread: https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiersquote:Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast has filed an injunction that could prevent the publication of content it calls “despicable” and “blatantly racist and transphobic.” The request, made before a federal judge in Seattle on Thursday, aims to immediately halt the production of Star Frontiers New Genesis, a reboot of the classic Star Frontiers tabletop role-playing game first published in 1982. The target of the request for an injunction is TSR, an entity which Wizards bought in 1997.
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Sep 15, 2022 02:27
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Negative_Earth posted:Mentioned earlier in the thread: https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiers More specifically, it's a company calling itself "TSR", cofounded by one of Gygax's sons, which claims that despite Wizards buying the TSR name and all its properties in 1997, they then abandoned both the rights to that name and logo and said properties in *mumble mumble* early 2000s. 
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Sep 15, 2022 03:14
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Wasn't Gygax notoriously lovely too?
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Sep 15, 2022 03:55
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bunnyofdoom posted:Wasn't Gygax notoriously lovely too? He quoted a 19th general justifying killing native children, "Nits make lice" in a discussion on why it's cool and good to kill orc babies.
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Sep 15, 2022 04:07
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TSR LLC also tried to run a fundraising campaign for legal fees to sue WotC to force them to remove the content warnings from the older TSR content they still sold, claiming that adding warnings about racist and sexist content implied that everyone who worked on this stuff was a sexist racist or a racist sexist. As for the game that they're being sued over, it makes the racist coding in Varg Vikernes' old RPG look somewhat subtle.
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Sep 15, 2022 10:47
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