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It is very tiring that there is an endless parade of ronyas in the world who seemingly have no other facets to their being other than to endlessly say "well we can't actually do anything because it might negatively affect <people who have never in their entire lives given a poo poo about me> and you wouldn't want to do that would you?" I have no more energy for trying to humanise the fundamentally inhuman reality of power dynamics in society. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 16:37
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“Don’t just nationalise everything with no compensation” and “don’t do anything” aren’t the same. Like, impose a billion quid windfall tax, charge the board of directors and senior management with corporate wrongdoing, put a mandatory union rep on the board with a veto power on any spending above £50, use all this to cap energy prices, go nuts. Or take the utilities into public ownership at a 10% discount or something (nationalisation isn’t a bad idea!) But macroeconomics isn’t just* captive academics running interference for the dark gods of capitalism, and there are actual consequences for just going “we’re sovereign so we can do whatever the gently caress we want” and it’s frustrating to see smart people asserting that actually, we just need [really simple solution] and the only reason that doesn’t happen is that everyone else is an idiot or evil. * I mean yes this is some of it, but not everywhere is UChicago
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Aug 15, 2022 16:54
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Beefeater1980 posted:I mean the late 20th century tested all this, it’s not some unknowable mystery. Between the end of WW2 and 2000 approximately 47M people died in famines, as follows: This is an utterly bizarre argument against nationalising energy & water companies without paying market rates to shareholders. A non-sequiter too powerful.
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Aug 15, 2022 16:57
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I remember hearing that one of the big contributing factors to Ethiopia's famines was the Italian occupation murdering everyone with the education to run a state I used to think nationalising "every industry that is important to the country" and allowing the rest to be privately owned was the way to go, but the trouble with that line of thinking is what happens when all the private owners use their money from running non-essential industries to bribe politicians to privatise the essential industries Gort fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Aug 15, 2022 |
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Aug 15, 2022 16:59
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I mean we can argue what the ideal or politically expedient response would be, but in the short term all I really give a poo poo about is not going bankrupt this winter and then ideally not getting equally hosed each subsequent year. Unfortunately with the current shower of cunts, the most we can hope for is outrage that the lobsters have realised they are being boiled, and that the heat should be turned up at a slower pace.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:05
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You can't trust a capitalist with anything important which, as it turns out, includes a loooot of things.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:06
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The general point here is that since the 80s, the British economy, government spending and cheap imports have been fuelled by foreign direct investment - capital from abroad coming to the UK to buy up our assets (private and public) and the foreign currency they exchange for pounds fuels imports, and keeps debt repayments low. If you start nationalising everything without competition, you scare off this foreign capital, and then have to reckon with the economic consequences of our export industries being a bit poo poo relative to our size. This is mostly a psychological effect about spooking rich people rather than ironclad law, so exactly how and with what rhetoric you nationalise stuff matters, but it's roughly what you see when other countries have done this. And doing things in a "crisis" (like the current energy crisis) lets you get away with alot more than in normal times without undue attention/teethgnashing.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:09
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forkboy84 posted:They like the idea, just don't like any politicians who propose it. Weird. the way to kill enthusiasm for nationalisation in focus groups is to move the discussion to how accountability should be provided, it seems like the Lords, and Brexit, no majority particularly likes its current form but no majority also likes any particular alternative
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Aug 15, 2022 17:12
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ronya posted:the way to kill enthusiasm for nationalisation in focus groups is to move the discussion to how accountability should be provided, it seems The list of good ideas to come from focus groups is as follows ... It's nothing OP
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Aug 15, 2022 17:13
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forkboy84 posted:This is an utterly bizarre argument against nationalising energy & water companies without paying market rates to shareholders. A non-sequiter too powerful. Gort posted:I remember hearing that one of the big contributing factors to Ethiopia's famines was the Italian occupation murdering everyone with the education to run a state
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Aug 15, 2022 17:13
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forkboy84 posted:The list of good ideas to come from focus groups is as follows there's an anecdote - quote:... Patricia Hewitt had asked MORI's Bob Worcester to conduct some focus group research for the 'Jobs and Industry' campaign [of the then-new Labour leader Kinnock; newly launched in 1985]. 'We decided we needed some focus groups on language to see if the voters were understanding a word we were saying,' Hewitt said. (I don't think this confusion would still exist today, to be clear. But it's hilarious. I blame 'public school'.)
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Aug 15, 2022 17:24
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Guavanaut posted:Go too far down that path and you end up at: I've been unsuccessfully trying to find a quote about this "think of all the nans' pensions!" criticism. I'm fairly sure it was from some Tory speechwriter or junior minister, and it was early Thatcher era (pre-1979 election or very early first term) and he says that their overall goal is (direct quote I can remember) "make socialism impossible in the future". And the other words are all about how you privatise the state-owned industries and utilities and sell them off to shareholders or holding companies with international shareholders, then encourage private pension schemes to invest in these newly-privatised businesses. So if anyone proposes re-nationalising them it's not only more logistically difficult because you're buying back shares from around the world (including some bits that may want to retaliate this act of economic 'agression') but you can put the frighteners on everyone by saying "what about the pensions?" Plan worked to perfection, it seems. It's not like the glory days of 1947 when you basically invited a load of coal mine owners into No.10 and handed them a briefcase full of crisp Marshall Aid bills.
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Aug 15, 2022 17:57
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Nothingtoseehere posted:The general point here is that since the 80s, the British economy, government spending and cheap imports have been fuelled by foreign direct investment Foreign investment in the UK has been uniquely evil for a long time, it is one of the places to put your wealth if you're an evil person. It's not "investment", it's "capital" moving.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:01
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Weren't the British somehow involved in the Bangaldesh famine? Yesterday was 75 years since the partition of India into India & Pakistan.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:02
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Which is why my response is "what about the pensions, I don't have one worth a drat and I don't have a reason to care about other people having them because you hosed the social contract up my entire life"
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Aug 15, 2022 18:02
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We should be poorer as a country, as a whole, if we were to stop basing our wealth around the exploitation of the rest of the world. That can also be done while making most people in the UK better off.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:07
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The measurements for "the economy"  like "GDP" or "investment" or "house prices" or "the stock market" are all a massive obfuscation.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:15
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Weren't the British somehow involved in the Bangaldesh famine? The 1943 one was definitely policy, drought peaked in 1941 but famine peaked in '43 when rains were above average, so that was British foreign policy. Deliberate deindustrialization by the EIC also led to other major famines in Bengal going back to 1770. You could argue that postcolonialism and the echoes of lost resources had a factor in the 1974 famine but it's a lot less clear cut than 1943 where there was a direct policy link.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:16
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OwlFancier posted:Which is why my response is "what about the pensions, I don't have one worth a drat and I don't have a reason to care about other people having them because you hosed the social contract up my entire life" Pensions are awful. If pensioners had to rely on benefits the same way other low- and non-earners do, they might not have spent their last decades years voting to impoverish them.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:18
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Weren't the British somehow involved in the Bangaldesh famine? Probably, they've had a lot of practice.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:30
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Only Kindness posted:Turns out privatising crucial national infrastructure wasn't such a great idea after all!
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Aug 15, 2022 18:34
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The Bengal famine predated Indian independence and the existence of Pakistan and Bangladesh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
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Aug 15, 2022 18:35
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The "Between the end of WW2 and 2000 approximately 47M people died in famines, as follows: Bangladesh 1.5M" famine was in 1974.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:38
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Weren't the British somehow involved in the Bangaldesh famine? The recent Marvel TV show (Ms. Marvel on Disney +) has a pretty good part where it covers the Partition.
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Aug 15, 2022 18:50
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Weren't the British somehow involved in Yes
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Aug 15, 2022 19:28
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ronya posted:there's an anecdote - I still have a split-second hangover from childhood confusion between public sector and private sector. Because the "private" sector is things like shops, restaurants, cinemas, where the public are allowed in, but the "public" sector is secret government buildings you're not allowed in. I do like the word public though. Public housing ("council" and "social" having been treadmilled into oblivion) Public services Public money (not "taxpayers' money") Public spaces (and ban fake-public spaces that are actually privately owned) It's a good word for "owned by everyone, administered by some level of government"
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Aug 15, 2022 20:18
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Pubic ownership
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Aug 15, 2022 20:27
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pubic services just a number 3 short back and sides with a little off the top please, mate
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Aug 15, 2022 20:30
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Guavanaut posted:The "Between the end of WW2 and 2000 approximately 47M people died in famines, as follows: Bangladesh 1.5M" famine was in 1974. and I thought I was so clever too
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Aug 15, 2022 20:35
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:pubic services that's the worst circumcision I've ever heard of
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Aug 15, 2022 20:50
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privates sector
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Aug 15, 2022 20:53
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Dunno if this has been posted ITT yet: https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1559234926007943170?s=20&t=av7uu5vdytcls67seMSCIg Worth a watch. Nothing revelatory tbh but once again the Jam Man is spot on just generally.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:33
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WhatEvil posted:Dunno if this has been posted ITT yet: my dad sowing: jermy corncob looks like a peado, and hes a terrirst, wouldnt vote for that my dad reaping: its not right they can charge this much for basic living costs
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Aug 15, 2022 21:42
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Bobstar posted:I still have a split-second hangover from childhood confusion between public sector and private sector. Because the "private" sector is things like shops, restaurants, cinemas, where the public are allowed in, but the "public" sector is secret government buildings you're not allowed in. What the gently caress is up with 'public schools' though?
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Aug 15, 2022 21:53
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They're open to any member of the public who can pay, rather than being restricted to a specific family or church.
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Aug 15, 2022 21:54
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https://twitter.com/candidaj/status/1558850242002489347 https://twitter.com/candidaj/status/1558867591606812672 
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Aug 15, 2022 22:38
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Good stuff. Make their lives hell, it's the least they deserve.
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Aug 15, 2022 23:16
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 i wonder how close he is to saying he's doing it because the patriotic labour party wants the queen to be warm as well go on keith, say it
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Aug 15, 2022 23:19
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Pensions are great but the pension age has steadily risen and is now 68, and will probably increase. It's going to be interesting when you've got people with early-stage dementia or arthritis trying to do 8 hour days and either don't realise they are unwell or are afraid to take early retirement.
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Aug 16, 2022 00:07
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Oh dear me posted:Pensions are awful. If pensioners had to rely on benefits the same way other low- and non-earners do, they might not have spent their last decades years voting to impoverish them. State pensions are benefits, though I think you're right that that has been pretty effectively obscured on the national consciousness. If you look at one of those plots of the welfare state they are also by far the largest part of the money spent on benefits.
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Aug 16, 2022 01:36
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