[Asia/Oceania] Another pro-China propaganda outlet revealed to be a huge scam:

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Another pro-China propaganda outlet revealed to be a huge scam:

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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 2 hours!

Al-Saqr posted:

speaking of the whites being butthurt that the Chinese are out-competing them, Germany has banned several Chinese phone makers from selling their phones because of a lovely uncompetitive phone brand no one cares about anymore is crying

https://youtu.be/hHV6-JamISQ

https://twitter.com/sondesix/status/1556820272392548353?s=21&t=3H50KmvLIDXh5s0S3tuN_A

nice try tankie if the chinese are outcompeting other brands then why did that same guy make this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UxnqgzBjz0

# ? Aug 16, 2022 05:54

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 20:51

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

ikanreed posted:

I mean, I feel like they're probably a bunch of us backed psychos who get CIA money laundered through private churches to create a nativist, anticommunist religious faction in China.

You don't really need a conspiracy theory like that to explain religious people being crazy, but it feels nice as a conspiracy.

The founder met with Bush jr.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 06:24

Antonymous: Apr 4, 2009

the short circuit of "Tiananmen Square" meaning the massacre (which is not even its name in chinese, it's the June Fourth Incident) is extremely annoying. Because the square is the center of many important buildings, like the seat of the chinese government, the imperial palace, Mao's mausoleum etc. Importantly in this context it has the Monument to The People's Heroes, a martyr shrine.

It's like if the national mall in DC triggered Chinese to think about the million man march.

"National Mall" was synonymous with Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam, and how the US government treats black american men.

literally no other political events happen in the national mall and that's the first one everyone will think of

# ? Aug 16, 2022 06:54

Antonymous: Apr 4, 2009

does anyone else think it's ironic they put the MLK statue on the site of the million man march?? Does America not remember the million man march? The nation of islam????

like that's how dumb it sounds

# ? Aug 16, 2022 06:56

Pomeroy: Apr 20, 2020; Can't post for 14 days!

crepeface posted:

just came across a good quick tiananmen square explainer

https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/

I agree with a lot of this article, but I'm wondering what it's basing its characterization of the student protestors on, most of what I've read is pretty definitive that, among the elite university students, who saw themselves as likely beneficiaries, there was a definite pro capitalist trend, and even a desire to keep workers out of the protest movement to better maintain that orientation.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 07:32

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Pomeroy posted:

I agree with a lot of this article, but I'm wondering what it's basing its characterization of the student protestors on, most of what I've read is pretty definitive that, among the elite university students, who saw themselves as likely beneficiaries, there was a definite pro capitalist trend, and even a desire to keep workers out of the protest movement to better maintain that orientation.

i think he's simplified it a lot because explaining all the different protest groups would require a more complex piece like https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/tiananmen-square-massacre-facts-fiction-and-propaganda/

i think there also was one that covered the non-student protesters but i can't remember where it was.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 07:56

Echo Chamber: Oct 16, 2008; best username/post combo

The 2004 Frontline documentary left a huge impression on me, being a liberal useful idiot back in my high school and college days.

I still want to push back against the "the dude who stood in front of those tanks was being a dick" talking point, because Legitimate Grievances got co-opted into western propaganda. And I don't blame westerners for letting that powerful image leave an impression.

But at the same time, considering how China got its poo poo together since and didn't let itself die while the USSR and Eastern block were collapsing, I have a hard time arguing that if the Chinese state was as brutal and violent in 1989 as western media suggests, that the crackdown was the wrong move. Zhao Ziyang could have turned into the Chinese Yeltsin if the government played their cards poorly lol.

Echo Chamber has issued a correction as of 08:25 on Aug 16, 2022

# ? Aug 16, 2022 08:23

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

What the Philippines Has at Stake in Taiwan

As tensions between China and the United States grow, most Southeast Asian countries will anxiously seek to remain neutral, however difficult this may be. Yet the Philippines faces more challenging choices than most. The outcome of its choices will also matter more to the U.S. and China.

At the most basic level, a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would have serious and specific implications for the Philippines by dint of geography. The Philippines northernmost islands are 190 kilometers from Taiwan, just slightly further than Japan�s nearest island.

As de facto Philippines Defence Secretary Jose Faustino recently pointed out, this could expose the Philippines to the consequences of a humanitarian disaster, including refugee outflows. Such a scenario has a precedent which is well-remembered in the Philippines. At the end of the Vietnam War tens of thousands of refugees from South Vietnam, as well as ships from the South Vietnamese Navy, evacuated to Subic Bay in the Philippines.

Moreover, concerns about the fate of overseas Filipino workers could play a major role in public opinion about responses to any crisis. Some politicians have already called for a contingency plan for the evacuation of the estimated 200,000 overseas Filipino workers in Taiwan.

The Philippine strategic community also appreciates that China gaining control of Taiwan would be a disaster for Manila�s South China Sea interests, which remains the country�s most serious external security challenge. As analysts have noted, the U.S. has limited munitions, raising the possibility that it would be required to cede the South China Sea in the early stages of a conflict with China. And a successful invasion would increase China�s power projection capabilities and weaken the ability of the U.S. to support its ally through an air and naval presence in the region.

While the U.S. could have little hope that other Southeast Asian countries (except perhaps for Singapore) would give practical assistance in the event of a conflict, the Philippines will be in the spotlight. A dearth of other viable regional options makes Luzon, the Philippines� largest island, separated from Taiwan by the Luzon Strait, highly desirable real estate. Notably, some recent war games by U.S. think tanks focused on how a conflict between the U.S. and China over Taiwan might unfold have assumed that U.S. forces would have military access to bases in the Philippines.

Under much of the previous Duterte administration, such an assumption would have seemed overly optimistic. Rodrigo Duterte, who finished his five year term earlier this year, rocked the foundations of the alliance from shortly after his election in 2016, when he announced the �separation� of the Philippines from the United States. Worse, from February 2020 until July 2021, he threatened to abrogate the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA), which enables U.S. military personnel to operate in the Philippines.

Since July 2021, when Duterte finally announced he would not abrogate the VFA, U.S. defence officials see the alliance on a �very strong trajectory.� The two sides are finally making progress in implementing the �Enhanced Defence Cooperation Agreement� (EDCA) which would improve facilities for U.S. troops at agreed locations, enabling them to increase their rotational presence in the Philippines. This access would make it easier for the U.S. to support the Philippines through capacity building, including on maritime security, and help the U.S. respond quickly in the event of a humanitarian crisis. The U.S. also hopes that expanding its security presence within the �first island chain� would assist in deterring China from further seeking to erode the status quo on Taiwan or in the South China Sea.

This year�s annual Balikatan exercise, comprising Philippine, U.S., and Australian forces, should be seen in this context. Washington (and U.S. Indo-Pacific Command) likely hopes that the inclusion of amphibious operations and live-fire training will send a strong signal to China that the U.S. presence and role in the region is supported by a broad range of regional partners. Exercises such as this also play a role in helping sensitize local communities in the Philippines to a U.S. presence. This factor was underscored in 2022 by some local opposition to the exercise driven by concerns that it could anger China and derail economic cooperation.

commentary posted:
I would like to highlight that over the last three paragraphs, nothing has actually changed to draw the Philippines away from US interests, and indeed this section outright admits that not only have ties grown stronger, but that the US has also moved forward in establishing bases in the Philippines via the EDCA, as well as enforcing our continued participation in joint military exercises.

This opposition, which was voiced by the governor of the strategically significant northern Cagayan province (which includes islands in the Luzon Strait), highlights the reality that the U.S.-Philippines defense alliance does not exist in a vacuum. Rather, strategic decisions will also be affected by economic relationships, elite ties, and public perceptions.

Changing economic relativities, and China�s growing influence through trade and investment will be factors in the Philippine strategic calculus. Over the past ten years, China (even excluding Hong Kong) has had greater foreign direct investment than any other partner, although accounting for less than 20% of total investment, it is far from dominant. U.S. companies remain some of the top taxpayers in the Philippines and contribute greatly to local economic development. Yet it was clear from recent comments by Philippine Foreign Secretary Enrique Manalo during U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken�s visit that Manila would value further economic cooperation with the United States.

As analysts Geoffrey Winger and Julio Amador recently wrote, the U.S.-Philippines alliance faces significant political challenges if it is to remain relevant; neither side can afford complacency. Winger and Amador point out that recent instances where the U.S. omitted or overlooked the Philippines have rankled. The reverse is also true: high-level engagement over the past year has been essential in rebooting the alliance. Whether these efforts can be sustained and deliver real gains in terms of U.S. presence in the Philippines will be an essential litmus test of the Biden administration�s Indo-Pacific strategy.

all right, so where was this op-ed published?

https://international.thenewslens.com/article/171716

The News Lens, which looks like a Taiwan-based news organization.

However, at the bottom of the article, it says:

quote:

This article originally appeared in the Lowy Interpreter. The News Lens has been authorized to republish this article.

Okay, what's the Lowy Interpreter?

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter

It looks like it's a newsletter published by the Lowy Institute

What is the Lowy Institute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowy_Institute

quote:

The Lowy Institute is an independent think tank founded in April 2003 by Frank Lowy to conduct original, policy-relevant research about international political, strategic and economic issues from an Australian perspective. It is based in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

While the institute has alternatively been described as "neoliberal",[1] "centre-right" leaning[2] or "reactionary",[3] officially, its research and analysis aim to be non-partisan, and its active program of conferences, seminars and other events are designed to inform and deepen the debate about international policy in Australia and to help shape the broader international discussion of these issues.[4]

Based in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, the Lowy Institute was founded in 2003 by Slovakian-born, Australian-Israeli billionaire businessman Sir Frank Lowy.[2] Lowy, a veteran of the 1947�1949 Palestine war,[2] and close associate of two former Israeli prime ministers,[2] emigrated to Australia and founded Westfield Corporation, a global shopping centre company; he retains a key role in various shopping centres in Australia and New Zealand.[5][6]

The institute receives funds from the Australian government through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Department of Defence, and the Department of Home Affairs. Companies which provide funding include BHP, Capital Group, Rio Tinto, and Rothschild & Co.[8]

The institute has hosted presentations by every Australian prime minister since 2003, as well as the NATO Secretary General, U.S, Vice-President Joe Biden, United Kingdom prime minister Boris Johnson, and various other Australian and foreign leaders.[4][9]

finally, the author of the op-ed is identified as one Susannah Patton: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/susannah-patton

quote:

Susannah Patton is Director of the Southeast Asia Program at the Lowy Institute and the Project Lead for the Asia Power Index, the Institute�s annual data-driven assessment that maps the changing distribution of power in the region. Her research on Southeast Asia is focused on strategic alignment dynamics and the roles of external powers including the United States, China and Australia.

Before joining the Lowy Institute, Susannah was a Research Fellow in the Foreign Policy and Defence Program at the United States Studies Centre. Her commentary and analysis has featured in Australian and international outlets, including the New York Times, Foreign Policy, Australian Financial Review and The Interpreter. Before leaving government, she worked in various Southeast Asia-focused positions in the Australian government, including as a Senior Analyst in the Southeast Asia Branch at the Office of National Intelligence, in the ASEAN-Australia Special Summit Taskforce in the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and as a diplomat in the Australian Embassy in Bangkok. Susannah holds first class honours degrees in law and political science from the Australian National University.

the Office of National Intelligence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_National_Intelligence

quote:

The Office of National Intelligence (ONI) is an Australian statutory intelligence agency responsible for advising the Prime Minister and National Security Committee, the production of all-source intelligence assessments, and the strategic development and enterprise management of the National Intelligence Community.[1][2][3] The ONI is directly accountable to the Prime Minister of Australia as a portfolio agency of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

ONI is the Australian equivalent of the United States Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the United Kingdom Joint Intelligence Organisation.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 08:26

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

gradenko_2000 posted:

muck

you are connecting the dots

interesting story I�d never heard about. I hope the Turkmen can be free to go back and forth.

https://thediplomat.com/2022/08/why-cant-turkmen-citizens-in-turkey-travel-back-home/

quote:

Why Can�t Turkmen Citizens in Turkey Travel Back Home?
Although Ashgabat has resumed limited flights to Russia and the UAE, there are still no regular public flights to and from Turkey.

Merdan Amanov
Why Can�t Turkmen Citizens in Turkey Travel Back Home?
Credit: Depositphotos
Around 1,000 Turkmen citizens gathered at the Istanbul Airport on July 17, demanding the opportunity to fly home. Among those, 20 were disabled people, more than 50 were women with small children, and more than 150 were elderly. One might wonder why they decided to gather and protest at the Turkish airport instead of merely booking a flight home on their own.

Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, in 2020 Turkmenistan completely closed its borders to anyone entering and leaving the country, including Turkmen citizens. For two years, nobody was allowed to cross the borders of Turkmenistan without the explicit permission of the government. In practice, tens of thousands of Turkmen citizens were not able to return home. At the same time, many people were not able to leave the country for education, health, tourism, or to join their families abroad.

Impact on Turkmen Living Inside the Country

One of the more concerning effects of the inability of Turkmen to leave the country was that the travel ban prevented the sick from seeking healthcare abroad. For example, in March and May 2022, there were reports that a 3-year-old, Meryem, and a 20-year-old, Ayperi, were both so sick that their families wanted to seek emergency medical treatment abroad. Due to the travel ban, the Turkmen government did not allow them to leave the country. After these reports surfaced, Ayperi was able to leave the country and receive treatment. There was not subsequent reporting about Meryem, so we don�t know her fate.

At the same time, the 1-year-old granddaughter of then-President Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov�s sister was taken by a private ambulance plane to a prestigious private hospital in Turkey to seek emergency medical care, illustrating the inequality inherent in the application of rules and restrictions in Turkmenistan.

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Travel bans also left many families divided by international borders. Spouses could not see each other or their children. Young people in long-distance relationships could not reunite and get married.

Impact on Turkmen Living Outside of the Country

Turkmen who traveled abroad for tourism, health, and other reasons before the pandemic were trapped abroad when the borders slammed shut. Many were without stable housing or employment, having never intended to spend so much time away from home. Turkmen traveling abroad on tourism visas were not allowed to work in the countries where they were stuck and had to rely on their families to send them money. Those without the means were left alone and some became homeless on the streets of foreign countries.

For example, in March 2020, more than 50 citizens of Turkmenistan, labor migrants in Turkey, were poisoned by counterfeit alcohol and subsequently died. The government did not organize a special flight to bring their back bodies home and give them to their families. They were buried in Istanbul, with their families unable to attend due to the travel ban.

In January 2022, RFE/RL�s Turkmen Service reported that an elderly man had spent two weeks at the Istanbul Airport hoping to be allowed to fly home. The man was ill and no longer able to work in Turkey; he took to the internet to beg then-President Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov for permission to fly home.

And then in April 2022, stories circulated that Turkmen nationals residing in Turkey had tried to cross the borders of Turkmenistan through Azerbaijan. Their attempts proved futile. More than 70 Turkmen nationals were stuck in Azerbaijan, having spent their money on air travel from Turkey to Azerbaijan and hotels in Baku. Similar cases happened to those who flew from Turkey to neighboring Uzbekistan trying to cross the land borders of Turkmenistan.

Another complicating factor for Turkmen stuck abroad after the pandemic began is that Turkmen embassies do not issue new passports. Citizens living abroad have always had to return to Turkmenistan to renew their passports, a visit that became virtually impossible when the borders closed. Turkmen either living and traveling abroad risked having their passports expire. A year after the travel ban was put in place, Turkmen embassies began issuing stamps on expired passports with new expiry dates. However, the immigration authorities of some countries don�t recognize such stamps as valid.

The Reopening of Some Borders

Finally in June 2022, international flights operated by state-owned Turkmenistan Airlines were resumed from Turkmenistan to Dubai in the UAE and Kazan in Russia, but these flights ran only once a week. From July, flights to Moscow were added and the frequency of all three routes was increased to twice a week.

Flights to Turkey, where the majority of the Turkmen diaspora lives, are still not allowed. Leaving and entering Turkmenistan through other means of transport (train, car, bus, and by foot) is also still not allowed.

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According to the Turkish Migration Management Directorate, there are 121,489 Turkmen citizens who hold residency permits in Turkey as of 2022. However, due to the visa-free regime between the two countries, according to some sources, over a million Turkmen nationals reside in Turkey, including migrant workers, students, and their family members. Turkmen nationals residing in Turkey have tried to fly to Turkmenistan through Dubai, where air travel has been resumed; however, they have a hard time flying from Turkey to the UAE on expired passports.

The Turkmen government, through Turkish Airlines, has organized charter flights around two to three times a month to repatriate citizens stuck in Turkey. However, citizens reportedly have had to pay bribes of around $2,000 to the employees of the consulate to get on those flights. Given the sheer number of people wishing to return back home, these charter flights are not enough. Meanwhile, the high cost makes accessing the flights that are arranged simply out of reach for many.

In July 2022, the consulate in Istanbul offered Turkmen nationals the opportunity to go back to Turkmenistan by bus through the Iranian border. The trip from Istanbul to Serakhs, Turkmenistan, is around 3700 km (2299 miles) and can take more than 42 hours of driving (without stops, that is).

Why Not Turkey?

Given the high demand for flights from Turkey to Turkmenistan, and the difficulty in accessing other routes home, why has Ashgabat not reopened the air route?

Perhaps the Turkmen government has not resumed flights to Turkey due to the prevalence of COVID-19 in the country. But looking at COVID-19 cases in Russia and the UAE, to which Turkmenistan has resumed flights, and Turkey, where it has not, does little to support this line of argument. Looking at data compiled by Our World in Data on new COVID-19 cases per million people, the 7-day rolling average in late May was 41.75 in the UAE, 29 in Russia, and 12.17 in Turkey. By early July, cases had risen to 190 per million in the UAE and 141 in Turkey, while dropping in Russia to 20 per million. Looking at the chart, the three countries are not radically different.

When it comes to the vaccination rates, over 100 percent of people (a figure that includes non-residents) in the UAE have been double vaccinated, while the number is 62.6 percent in Turkey and 51.7 percent in Russia. Thus, it is hard to justify the non-resumption of flights to Turkey alongside the resumption of flights to Russia, in particular, based merely on COVID-19 cases or vaccination rates.

The Rumors and Reality

Some claim that the Turkmen government is afraid of a mass influx of Turkmen migrants coming back home, which arguably would occur if flights from Turkey were resumed at a regular rate. Turkmenistan is a totalitarian country in which protests are essentially non-existent. However, over the past two years since the travel ban was put in place, Turkmen nationals in Turkey have organized dozens of protests in front of the consulate over many issues: travel bans, Turkmenistan�s COVID-19 denial, floods in the eastern regions of Turkmenistan, the dynastic succession of the regime from father to son, and many other issues. The government in Ashgabat may fear that Turkmen who have protested relatively freely in Turkey will bring their ideas back home and create a threat to the survival of the regime.

Whatever the reason, the stranding of Turkmen abroad has serious personal and economic implications for Turkmenistan�s citizens. Meanwhile, the relatives of the president were leaving and entering the country at whim, seemingly whenever they wanted to. In addition to the private ambulance plane for the former president�s grandniece mentioned above, the president�s nephews, Shamyrat and Hajymyrat Rejepov, visited Turkey and Dubai many times during the two-year travel ban period where they partied on yachts and attended sporting events. They did not even try to hide their activities, publishing pictures of themselves relaxing abroad on social media.

Authors
Guest Author

Merdan Amanov

Merdan Amanov is the pseudonym of a Turkmen researcher with a focus on economics.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 09:03

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

gradenko_2000 posted:

all right, so where was this op-ed published?

https://international.thenewslens.com/article/171716

The News Lens, which looks like a Taiwan-based news organization.

However, at the bottom of the article, it says:

Okay, what's the Lowy Interpreter?

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter

It looks like it's a newsletter published by the Lowy Institute

What is the Lowy Institute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowy_Institute

finally, the author of the op-ed is identified as one Susannah Patton: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/susannah-patton

the Office of National Intelligence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_National_Intelligence

lol i've never even heard of ONI!

can you post that in the auspol thread? there's lots of quotes there that'll make it a pain to quote

# ? Aug 16, 2022 09:22

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

https://twitter.com/MIslamMonitor/status/1558023254350200833?s=20&t=DF2ea93V6itYfOdCBA7cbA

borqs borqs borqs

# ? Aug 16, 2022 09:22

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Echo Chamber posted:

The 2004 Frontline documentary left a huge impression on me, being a liberal useful idiot back in my high school and college days.

I still want to push back against the "the dude who stood in front of those tanks was being a dick" talking point, because Legitimate Grievances got co-opted into western propaganda. And I don't blame westerners for letting that powerful image leave an impression.

But at the same time, considering how China got its poo poo together since and didn't let itself die while the USSR and Eastern block were collapsing, I have a hard time arguing that if the Chinese state was as brutal and violent in 1989 as western media suggests, that the crackdown was the wrong move. Zhao Ziyang could have turned into the Chinese Yeltsin if the government played their cards poorly lol.

The PRC in the 80s was aligned with the west for a decade by the time tianmen happened.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 10:56

Soapy_Bumslap: Jun 19, 2013; We're gonna need a bigger chode; Grimey Drawer

I'd love to see China wriggle its way out of THIS real estate crisis!

Ah!

# ? Aug 16, 2022 11:31

Vladimir Poutine: Aug 13, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

all right, so where was this op-ed published?

https://international.thenewslens.com/article/171716

The News Lens, which looks like a Taiwan-based news organization.

However, at the bottom of the article, it says:

Okay, what's the Lowy Interpreter?

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter

It looks like it's a newsletter published by the Lowy Institute

What is the Lowy Institute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowy_Institute

finally, the author of the op-ed is identified as one Susannah Patton: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/susannah-patton

the Office of National Intelligence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_National_Intelligence

The Lowy Institute ran an information campaign encouraging Australia to sell uranium to India in order to re-form the Quad after it disbanded in 2008. Remember that the whole point of the Quad is to get India to play ball.

The year after the Quad was formed, Kevin Rudd became prime minister and announced in a meeting with China�s foreign minister that Australia was no longer participating in the Quad. The whole premise of the alliance was further weakened by Australia�s at the time policy of refusing to sell uranium to countries that haven�t signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, which included India.

The Lowy Institute ran a propaganda campaign for a while afterwards encouraging the sale of uranium to India and lobbied politicians. I remember them using the phrase �nuclear apartheid� to describe not selling uranium to India. Anyway, Tony Abbott won the next election (the raw onion guy) and he started selling India uranium and then Abe re-formed the quad a few years later.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 11:35

KirbyKhan: Mar 20, 2009; Soiled Meat

crepeface posted:

just came across a good quick tiananmen square explainer

https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/

Thank

# ? Aug 16, 2022 11:46

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I'm going to link the article here in case anyone wants to read the rest of it: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/don%E2%80%99t-rule-out-intervention-solomon-islands-204188

# ? Aug 16, 2022 11:56

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

god we're so embarrassing

# ? Aug 16, 2022 12:01

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

i skimmed that dreck and its basically saying spheres of interest for me but not for thee because we're liberal democracies and therefore inherently superior to third world countries

so just standard shitlib imperialism apologia

# ? Aug 16, 2022 12:03

Vladimir Poutine: Aug 13, 2012

crepeface posted:

god we're so embarrassing

That was my first reaction too but I think that�s an American publication?? Also, I clicked on the author�s name and it looks like they have another piece arguing that Russia will spontaneously become balkanised

# ? Aug 16, 2022 12:11

yugioh mishima: Oct 22, 2020

i didn�t read all those 500 quotes and wikipedia links but i know a guy who works for the news lens and he�s really annoying so i�m going to
assume the article is bad

# ? Aug 16, 2022 12:43

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Can't post for 21 hours!

Soapy_Bumslap posted:

I'd love to see China wriggle its way out of THIS real estate crisis!

Ah!

What, are they not gonna stab themselves in the balls for capitalism?

# ? Aug 16, 2022 12:59

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

old dude talks about going on a month long bike tour in xinjiang and the "police state" there. danny haiphong talks way too slowly imo, i gotta jack up the speed to 1.5x

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db_1KK10sXQ

# ? Aug 16, 2022 14:12

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

Soapy_Bumslap posted:

I'd love to see China wriggle its way out of THIS real estate crisis!

Ah!

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 14:43

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

tristeham posted:

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

because almost everyone in the west truly wants to see china fail and its people immiserated and thrust into poverty

# ? Aug 16, 2022 14:46

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

yea the main hard proof is just 'they're always wrong and they very clearly keep basing such 'predictions' off of 'uh obviously China will fall because they're a bunch of filthy oriental commies???' logic'

# ? Aug 16, 2022 14:50

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

tristeham posted:

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

Western economists (westerners in general) can not comprehend the Chinese state has waaaayyy more tools in the toolbox to control/guide the real estate price. Does western university even study how non free market economic model work?

edit

I don't live in China but I will give you some examplse, the local government in the city level can release a directive and give "advise" on apartment price and tell the real estate vendors don't sell the per square meter price below a certain threshold; The China banking system also has alot of firewalls to shield itself from the world system. The interest rate is not fluctuate like roller coaster to influence the market. The domestic saving rate has been stay around 3% for a long time. So your apartment price has been going up in a much more predictable rate than other regions including HK for the last 3 decades.

For unfinished apartments (pre sold apartment projects that got tied up in legal/financial trouble), the local government can tell the developers make the apartment livable first (without the interior finishing) and let people who paid the down payment move in first. The local government will hold back on releasing the ownership certificate document until the money issue is resolved (it takes a lot time, sometimes more than 5 years). So first time home owners actually have priority to move in while investor won't get priority to flip the apartment for profit. There is no "circuit court judge" or "supreme court judge" to tell you no you can not assign the apartment first. Local governments has a lot of latitude to resolve a particular problem on case by case basis. Not saying the local official will always do the right thing, but the officials has much more tools in their disposal.

stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 15:36 on Aug 16, 2022

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:03

Cup Runneth Over: Aug 8, 2009; She said life's
Too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
It's too short
Not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate

Echo Chamber posted:

The 2004 Frontline documentary left a huge impression on me, being a liberal useful idiot back in my high school and college days.

I still want to push back against the "the dude who stood in front of those tanks was being a dick" talking point, because Legitimate Grievances got co-opted into western propaganda. And I don't blame westerners for letting that powerful image leave an impression.

But at the same time, considering how China got its poo poo together since and didn't let itself die while the USSR and Eastern block were collapsing, I have a hard time arguing that if the Chinese state was as brutal and violent in 1989 as western media suggests, that the crackdown was the wrong move. Zhao Ziyang could have turned into the Chinese Yeltsin if the government played their cards poorly lol.

That photo was one of the major things that got me to question the Western line on Tianenmen when I was younger, because there was supposedly a massacre, and yet... the tanks are stopping for him. It just didn't make a lot of sense. Why wouldn't they run him over if they were murdering people?

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:03

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

tristeham posted:

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

I would say it is hard to find one in English, the main issue is that it is absolutely true real estate prices are dropping in China�it clearly a result in purposeful government policy. The Chinese government anything wants if not needs real estate prices to drop since it is causing inequality and leading to �dead capital� being left in the market.

If anything other governments should be joining them since the post Covid real estate bubble isn�t at all sustainable.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:10

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

tristeham posted:

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

the western economists' mainstream opinion to solve its current economic crisis is to wield national government policy to fire a lot more people

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:13

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

stephenthinkpad posted:

Does western university even study how non free market economic model work?

absolutely not, no. if anything good happens in China it�s because of the miracle of capitalism, and if China does anything that western capitalism doesn�t like then China Will Crumble (someday).

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:20

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

tristeham posted:

does anyone have a good source on why western economists are full of poo poo regarding this alleged crisis? i need to shut an acquaintance up.

THIS particular real estate crisis or real estate in general? i doubt you'll find anything convincing since the stories are always vague gibberish.

at best you can point to something like China Urges Evergrande�s Hui to Pay Debt With His Own Wealth and just say if there's a problem, the CPC won't bail out those billionaires/banks responsible like the US did during the GFC and will make sure the people are taken care of because the rights of capital do not rise above the rights of the prosperity of the people

then explain "the economy" is made up bullshit anyway.

https://twitter.com/crim_thought/status/1549554660184231936?s=20&t=QQth1hHHNxxYi3VVuXW0cw

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:27

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Ardennes posted:

I would say it is hard to find one in English, the main issue is that it is absolutely true real estate prices are dropping in China�it clearly a result in purposeful government policy. The Chinese government anything wants if not needs real estate prices to drop since it is causing inequality and leading to �dead capital� being left in the market.

If anything other governments should be joining them since the post Covid real estate bubble isn�t at all sustainable.

The problem is that Western economics considers falling housing prices as a bad thing because it considers housing something to accrue value instead of a place where people live and have families.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:32

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

stephenthinkpad posted:

Western economists (westerners in general) can not comprehend the Chinese state has waaaayyy more tools in the toolbox to control/guide the real estate price. Does western university even study how non free market economic model work?

There is some study of non-free market models, but it's always framed in terms that prove the superiority of free market capitalism. It's only once you get deeper into an economics program that you learn all that free market stuff is nonsense. The free market ideology in Econ 101 or Econ 202 is for the hoi polloi who only take one or two economics courses as electives.

The bigger problem though is that no matter how ridiculous neoliberalism is, that's also where all the money is at. No American economist is receiving a grant or sinecure to say that government intervention is necessary beyond the public-private partnerships which are the extent of American government action today. Even in Europe the gravity of money weights bias towards neoliberalism despite European economics programs being more straightforward with the realities of economic studies.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:42

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Also, in China, the local official and developer corruptions has to do it illegally and always stay illegal. You can not wash it clean by having a local elected prosecutor investigate it and "close the case�. There is no route for mega business men to buy their way into local politic. There is always a firewall between businessman and government officials. When a corruption gets ugly and gets blow up, the central government can send investigation team (multiple teams sometimes, for example, for the case of the initial Wuhan outbreak) to figure out the corruption.

This is not limited to real estate market, but I can not stress this enough, lobbying is illegal in China and need to stay illegal.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:43

Orbis Tertius: Feb 13, 2007

stephenthinkpad posted:

This is not limited to real estate market, but I can not stress this enough, lobbying is illegal in China and need to stay illegal.

One Weird Trick to avoid a failed state. capitalists hate it!

# ? Aug 16, 2022 15:53

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 21 days!)

https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1559530185686675457?s=20&t=kP4rVSnH1TckrDqvmrWTew

# ? Aug 16, 2022 16:20

DiscountDildos: Nov 8, 2017

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1559530185686675457?s=20&t=kP4rVSnH1TckrDqvmrWTew

Jesus christ lmao I don't quite understand the "what I actually do" but I support it

# ? Aug 16, 2022 16:26

DiscountDildos: Nov 8, 2017

I want to see Chinese foreign ministry spokespeople go full "Bush did 9/11"

# ? Aug 16, 2022 16:30

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

i'm of a "I'll believe it when I see it" opinion when it comes to China's economy suddenly imploding. It feels like there's 2+ years of predicting that real estate would burst so far.

# ? Aug 16, 2022 16:34

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 20:51

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1559530185686675457?s=20&t=kP4rVSnH1TckrDqvmrWTew

# ? Aug 16, 2022 16:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Another pro-China propaganda outlet revealed to be a huge scam:

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