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thrashingteeth posted:I've actually had to start weaning myself off hate following TERF brit pundits because I could actually my mental health disintegrating and quality of life lowering. Give it a few more months and I’m sure they’ll be full open homophobic. The TERF -> open homophobic bigot pipeline is like one of the key foundations of TERFism
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Aug 16, 2022 16:33
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Yea I sit and look through Weeter's posts with my friends sometimes just so we can get the real "raging at posts" feeling. It's a loving sickness. Honestly since she claimed she was trans as a kid and grew out of it (she was a tomboy) therefore her open TERFism is okay actually I'm waiting for her to come out as a fellow bisexual so her future homophobia is okay actually. The Weetman five part series 10 finale. Her absolute hate obsession with Owen Jones is also kind of ick as well. God I hate this island.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:01
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Do the terfs earnestly believe that they're taking kids who violate gender norms and forcibly injecting them with hormones? Or are all the ones claiming "I would have been transed" just lying?
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Aug 16, 2022 18:37
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Dr. Stab posted:Do the terfs earnestly believe that they're taking kids who violate gender norms and forcibly injecting them with hormones? Or are all the ones claiming "I would have been transed" just lying? Her specific one is the first, that if children exhibit anything that's not in line "with their sex" the state and the left will take them away to their gender camps and forcibly given them GENDERPILLS TM. I think this is the most common among the Brit TERFs.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:52
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thrashingteeth posted:Her specific one is the first, that if children exhibit anything that's not in line "with their sex" the state and the left will take them away to their gender camps and forcibly given them GENDERPILLS TM. Yes I've seen JKR specifically repeat this one as far as "tomboys getting forcibly transed".
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Aug 16, 2022 18:54
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How does she reconcile that force transing pipeline with the part of British trans health care where you have to beg a doctor for a year straight before you get any treatment, and that's after spending years on a waitlist?
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Aug 16, 2022 18:58
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By ignoring the latter I would expect. It is much easier to feel like you are right if you simply ignore anything that suggests you aren't.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:05
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Dr. Stab posted:How does she reconcile that force transing pipeline with the part of British trans health care where you have to beg a doctor for a year straight before you get any treatment, and that's after spending years on a waitlist? Through dishonesty.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:16
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OwlFancier posted:By ignoring the latter I would expect. It is much easier to feel like you are right if you simply ignore anything that suggests you aren't. The trans activists have bullied the NHS into greasing the pipelines because they're terrified of reprisals for being insufficiently woke.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:17
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It dovetails well with the other noted british media habit of describing the current, horrible state of reality, and then saying "wouldn't it be terrible if the left got in power and made this happen" Some people just live entirely inside their own minds. Which would be fine except they are allowed to Post.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:21
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OwlFancier posted:By ignoring the latter I would expect. It is much easier to feel like you are right if you simply ignore anything that suggests you aren't. Goes right along with their raging urge to accuse each other of being secretly transgender based on outright prhrenology-level weirdness, and spending their time harassing cis women in the bathroom for not looking feminine enough because contrary to their brainworms there just aren't that many transgender women in the world, as a percentage of population.
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Aug 17, 2022 04:40
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I was listening to the knowledge fight coverage of the alex jones trial and they seem to have come to a similar conclusion about how he works, which is that there isn't really a concept of true or false at play, there is only what is convenient to him at the time. I would probably further describe the process as starting from the emotional needs of the speaker, such as the feeling that you are right, that you have to be right, perhaps, but most importantly that you simply are about this thing, and then everything else conforms around that belief. It might be a strong emotional belief that you are factually correct but I think it's generally more a belief that you are morally right, or holistically right about the way the world is, and so facts simply exist to reify that feeling. And the act of posting about it (or writing articles in the case of journos) is also a part of that reification. As is forming communities to reinforce it in each other. And by existing primarily in spaces where those beliefs are tolerated (such as a position of authority at a newspaper willing to publish those sorts of stories) or outright encouraged (possibly also at the newspaper but certainly in a lot of online spaces centered around terf ideology) and by cutting out people who criticize you so that you can engage with them purely adversarially, it becomes possible to sustain that method of thinking indefinitely. It never has to run into reality in such a way as to severely derail your life. If it doesn't affect you having enough money to live (because you are independently financially secure or because you have not yet allowed it to intrude into your work space) and your social circle can be adjusted to consist of a sufficient number of likeminded people, there is no mechanism that can force you to adopt a different mode of thought. Thus, I think, why the attitude is most preponderant among well off media personalities and extremely online brokebrains, as well as the same right wing weirdos who already practice that method of conceptualizing the world with the rest of their political attitudes and are already adjusted to be insulated from the consequences by permissive working environments or independent means and who have already alienated most of the people who would be likely to disagree with them. That it pivots wholly on their own emotional needs also, I think, is why they love to characterise themselves as the victims who are fighting a noble and difficult battle against incredible odds, because that is a very romantic notion that is probably very emotionally fulfilling for them and its counterfactuality is an obstacle that can be overcome by the earlier process. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 04:57
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I suspect this may be considered important to some people: https://www.glad.org/post/appeals-court-transgender-people-are-protected-under-the-ada/ U.S. Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Affirms Transgender People Are Protected Under the Americans with Disabilities Act First-of-its-kind Appeals Court ruling says transgender people cannot be excluded from the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) in public institutions—including carceral settings RICHMOND, VA — The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit today affirmed that transgender people who experience gender dysphoria are protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehabilitation Act. The ruling reverses a Virginia district court’s dismissal of claims brought by Kesha Williams, a transgender woman who was incarcerated in a men’s detention facility, denied access to medical treatment for her gender dysphoria, and faced persistent harassment by other inmates and prison deputies. Multiple district courts have previously found that transgender people cannot be excluded from the protections of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Today’s decision is the first such ruling from a U.S. Court of Appeals. A friend-of-the-court brief co-authored by GLBTQ Legal Advocates & Defenders and the National Center for Lesbian Rights presented scientific research and established case law to argue that the ADA prohibits discrimination based on gender dysphoria and requires that the treatment of people with disabilities must be based on “reasoned and medically sound judgments.” The brief argued that public institutions—including prisons—must provide equal access and make reasonable accommodations when entrenched policies and practices discriminate against a person because of their gender dysphoria. The brief was joined by the American Civil Liberties Union, Black and Pink Massachusetts, Lambda Legal, National Center for Transgender Equality, National LGBTQ Task Force, Trans People of Color Coalition, Transcending Barriers, Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, disAbility Law Center of Virginia, and Disability Rights Vermont “This is a huge win. There is no principled reason to exclude transgender people from our federal civil rights laws,” said Jennifer Levi, GLAD Transgender Rights Project Director. “It’s incredibly significant for a federal appeals court to affirm that the protections in our federal disability rights laws extend to transgender people. It would turn disability law upside down to exclude someone from its protection because of having a stigmatized medical condition. This opinion goes a long way toward removing social and cultural barriers that keep people with treatable, but misunderstood, medical conditions from being able to thrive.” “This is a thorough, well-reasoned opinion recognizing that the Americans with Disabilities Act prohibits discrimination against individuals with gender dysphoria,” said NCLR’s Legal Director Shannon Minter. “This decision sets a powerful precedent that will be important for other courts considering this critical issue.” “The effort to exclude transgender people from their rightful protections under the ADA was always baseless and discriminatory,” said Joshua Block, Staff Attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union’s LGBTQ & HIV Project, “and we’re thankful the Fourth Circuit affirmed that reality today. Transgender people are denied a multitude of reasonable rights and accommodations, particularly while incarcerated, and today’s ruling is a step forward for their fairness and equality.” “We are very pleased with the outcome in the 4th Circuit decision,” commented Colleen Miller, Executive Director of the disAbility Law Center of Virginia, which also submitted a separate friend-of-the-court brief, “and especially pleased that we were able to assist the Court through our amicus brief.”
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Aug 17, 2022 05:04
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Liquid Communism posted:Goes right along with their raging urge to accuse each other of being secretly transgender based on outright prhrenology-level weirdness, and spending their time harassing cis women in the bathroom for not looking feminine enough because contrary to their brainworms there just aren't that many transgender women in the world, as a percentage of population. I think the root of it is just a desire to harass people they don't like, because they've essentially created a system reminiscent of witch trials, where there's no possible right way to be after you're "suspected." Either you're not feminine enough, in which case you might be trans (or, you know, just a woman who doesn't wish to present as particularly feminine, or who is tall, or muscular), or you are feminine in which case you're suspect because perhaps you're just acting that way to throw everyone off. The other side of things is their bizarre paranoia about trans men somehow being women who were conned or forced into "being trans." The very idea of it is absurd, and the vehemence with which they assert this paranoia merely reinforces that gender identity exists separately from how one chooses to present oneself or who one is attracted to. The fact that many TERFs will come out with rubbish like "oh, they would've told me I was trans and forced me to be a man just because I don't present feminine" or whatever, actually proves, in my opinion, that gender identity exists independent of gender roles or presentation or sexuality or biological sex. These TERFs know they are women, regardless of anything else, and they are deeply uncomfortable, even offended (rightfully so, for once), by the suggestion that they're anything but women... which is exactly the situation trans people are in! They know their gender!
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Aug 17, 2022 05:04
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Yeah the weird infantilizing bullshit about how I can't possibly know what I'm about and I've been bullied into transing is.........weird. killer_robot posted:I suspect this may be considered important to some people: This is nice and it sucks that instead of being happy for this instead I'm thinking "but isn't the supreme court next" 
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Aug 17, 2022 05:16
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Hawkperson posted:Yeah the weird infantilizing bullshit about how I can't possibly know what I'm about and I've been bullied into transing is.........weird. Yeah, the whole 'stealing our lesbians!' narrative about trans dudes being forced into being trans is certainly a... thing. Especially out of a group that is overwhelmingly straight, middle aged, middle class, cisgender women who bully gay women for not being feminine enough whenever they aren't using them as a prop for their social crusade against transgender people.
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Aug 17, 2022 05:39
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It is unlikely they care about actual lesbians (or people they identify as lesbians) in the same way that pro life people don't care about the children they force into existence or the people who give birth to them.
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Aug 17, 2022 07:10
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PT6A posted:I think the root of it is just a desire to harass people they don't like, because they've essentially created a system reminiscent of witch trials, where there's no possible right way to be after you're "suspected." Either you're not feminine enough, in which case you might be trans (or, you know, just a woman who doesn't wish to present as particularly feminine, or who is tall, or muscular), or you are feminine in which case you're suspect because perhaps you're just acting that way to throw everyone off. It's a weird thing. Transphobes know how bad dysphoria is. The idea of a cis person being forced to take cross sex hormone therapy is seen as an unspeakable horror, causing permanent damage. But, when it's trans people, it's suddenly not so bad to wait until you're 18 before getting the right hormones, and the lasting effects from going through the wrong puberty literally do not matter in the slightest. OwlFancier posted:It is unlikely they care about actual lesbians (or people they identify as lesbians) in the same way that pro life people don't care about the children they force into existence or the people who give birth to them. Trans people are way more gay, proportionally, than cis people. Letting people transition increases the number of lesbians.
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Aug 17, 2022 10:17
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That's why they're forced to pretend that trans people aren't real. Or if they are then there's like 2 (including ~their trans friend~) and the rest are kids who have been confused by tik tok and sex ed in schools. Or if they aren't then it must be the ROGD from that conspiracy theory study that was silenced and most will regret any affirmation. Or if they don't...
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Aug 17, 2022 10:27
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Dr. Stab posted:
or as my TERF relatives put it, and will gleefully point to a online articles and campaigns against other TERFS-- some of them lesbian-- as "Fake lesbians who socially destroy actual lesbians for not liking to suck transfemale lesbian's dick." killer_robot fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 11:04
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Guavanaut posted:That's why they're forced to pretend that trans people aren't real. It always seemed to be couched in language that there are "legitimate" trans people, but it's fine for them to wait until adulthood. They don't make the argument that more cis people are being tortured by being forcibly transed than trans people by being forcibly cised. They think that if no transition is happening, nobody is being tortured.
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Aug 17, 2022 11:22
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The "they should have to wait until they finish puberty before they get access to puberty blockers" argument.
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Aug 17, 2022 11:28
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killer_robot posted:or as my TERF relatives put it, and will gleefully point to a online articles and campaigns against other TERFS-- some of them lesbian-- as "Fake lesbians who socially destroy actual lesbians for not liking to suck transfemale lesbian's dick." Which is ridiculous because there has to be a good chunk of WLW who accept that configuration. I say this because there are a good chunk of MLM who accept their equivalent!
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Aug 17, 2022 15:27
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They also believe that trans women are completely uninterested in each other, which uhhh... lol
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Aug 17, 2022 20:34
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wizzardstaff posted:They also believe that trans women are completely uninterested in each other, which uhhh... lol I feel like they're basically uninterested in any real aspect of any transgender person's life. Their positions are based fully in their own personal fears, discomfort, and feelings and how it affects them personally. Very similar to abortion.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:39
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The Caelan Conrad youtube doc on infiltrating terf groups was fascinating in how utterly detached from reality they are. Just a bunch of people who have never spoken to anybody trans inventing absurd ideas they got out of books written by skull measurers from 30-100 years ago.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:42
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wizzardstaff posted:They also believe that trans women are completely uninterested in each other, which uhhh... lol The other half is attacking Gillick competence and the idea that minors can have input into their own medical care.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:51
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wizzardstaff posted:They also believe that trans women are completely uninterested in each other, which uhhh... lol They also seem to totally ignore straight trans women when they make their 'oh no preditors in our toilets!' Argument. Bitch please I'm more likely to steal your husband, I ain't got no interest in you I just want to piss.
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Aug 17, 2022 20:57
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Guavanaut posted:Half of it is badly rewritten gay panic, like the idea that gay men spend 90% of their time 'recruiting' and 'turning' straight men (especially boys) because they have no interest in other gay men. it’s never a hot straight guy worried about this stuff either ime
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Aug 17, 2022 21:01
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wizzardstaff posted:They also believe that trans women are completely uninterested in each other, which uhhh... lol It's cute the CIS assume anyone would be interested in them.
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Aug 17, 2022 21:07
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Dr. Stab posted:It always seemed to be couched in language that there are "legitimate" trans people, but it's fine for them to wait until adulthood. They don't make the argument that more cis people are being tortured by being forcibly transed than trans people by being forcibly cised. They think that if no transition is happening, nobody is being tortured. The issue that transphobes never face is... -- Even if you go to Lisa Littman's lovely paper that started the social contagion mess, Littman is identifying this supposed new generation of trans kids who are mostly AFAB teens and preteens that supposedly never experienced gender dysphoria before. Even if Littman is correct (She's not), the premise that there is an issue with these kids is that traditionally gender dysphoria would be diagnosed in children with persistent expression of a gender identity not matching their sexual characteristics from an early age. So, you'll get transphobes who will be like, "What are you doing to do? Transition first graders?" And it's like... yeah. Because even when we follow the transphobic literature, those are supposedly the more consistent cases of gender dysphoria that we can easily target with social transition and counseling until moving to puberty blockers. The transphobes pick the fake social contagion narrative, but even the poorly gathered data they're picking, they're not really following what the data is saying. --Transphobes are often trying to harness Leftist thinking against transgender people. So, you'll see these explanations of how we really just have teenage cis girls who are being made to feel lovely from the internet and then transitioning. But then the conclusion is that we shouldn't be talking about gender in our schools and that doesn't make sense. If we really do have this massive issue of cis girls mistakenly transitioning then we should be talking about gender more, not less, because that's legitimately a problem. And while it's not really an actual widespread problem, lots of cis girls do feel lovely about themselves and we should be doing more to support them. But somehow the Matt Walshes and Ben Shapiros and Jordan Petersons of the world, who care so much about these girls will (Checks notes) sexually harass female politicians, mock normal rear end swimsuit models for being fat, mock teenagers on tiktok despite being grown rear end men, advocate for end of reproductive rights, harass women at a women's march and then cry assault when a cis dude shoulder checks them, and argue that there is no rape culture, and argue that women can't actually take part in the economy. I'm starting to get this suspicion... they don't actually care about women.
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Aug 17, 2022 21:29
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Great post, especially regarding trying to coopt leftist messaging. That's the core tactic of TERFs. If you disagree, you're a misogynist or sexist.
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Aug 17, 2022 21:37
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A thing I've observed with TERFs, at least on Twitter, is that if an account is a TERF account it's all they talk about. I don't see a lot of, like, basically likable social justice activists who unfortunately have bad opinions about trans issues. If they're transphobes, it's all they loving talk about, and 100% of their "gay rights activism" is countering the insidious trans agenda. It just eats people's minds completely, it's like QAnon for middle-aged lesbians with tenure.
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Aug 17, 2022 21:51
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There's a few otherwise normal people who tend to parrot transphobic talking when something comes across their tl. And I suspect that's a somewhat common liberal opinion, of like "I support trans people, but people say hormones are dangerous and I think maybe they should try conversion therapy first." Because that's the opinion that gets presented as the reasonable middle ground in articles. If you just read major news sources, you'd think there was an epidemic of transition regret.
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Aug 17, 2022 21:57
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The real gap is in understanding gender identity. Most Liberals and Democrats favor acceptance of trans people and against discrimination, but there is a key belief that gender is determined at birth that is very widely accepted even by our allies. And I'm a parent who assigned a birth for my child because that's what our culture does which correlated with his private parts. Most people are cis. I get the bias. But I think the really missing component for folks is going to be understanding that actual gender identity even if you're cis does genuinely happen later for everyone and is an actual part of human development.
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Aug 18, 2022 01:44
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Dr. Stab posted:There's a few otherwise normal people who tend to parrot transphobic talking when something comes across their tl. And I suspect that's a somewhat common liberal opinion, of like "I support trans people, but people say hormones are dangerous and I think maybe they should try conversion therapy first." Because that's the opinion that gets presented as the reasonable middle ground in articles. If you just read major news sources, you'd think there was an epidemic of transition regret. Yeah I’ve had to talk a few friends through that, though to their credit they realized they were operating on ignorance. In my anecdotal experience as a trans middle school teacher - the AFAB trans kids are a lot more visible, to be sure. My perception is that it’s still quite dangerous for AMAB kiddos to be queer at all - not even just trans. At least in my local area. My queer AMAB students usually come out to me years after middle school, with very few exceptions. It sucks, I’m not really sure how to combat it other than be an obviously queer man that hopefully offers them a bit of cover.
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Aug 18, 2022 02:31
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I suspect the determination at birth is probably not helped by the idea that you're "born" with a fixed sexuality, which granted is a way to express that you don't have much or any control over it but I think has generally been internalized as it literally being deterministic by genetics or something.
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Aug 18, 2022 02:51
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OwlFancier posted:I suspect the determination at birth is probably not helped by the idea that you're "born" with a fixed sexuality, which granted is a way to express that you don't have much or any control over it but I think has generally been internalized as it literally being deterministic by genetics or something. It does seem to be at least partially genetic in basis, based on stuff like twin studies. A fair bit of the the remaining portion is probably epigenetic but that's all basically magic so who knows what's up with that.
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Aug 18, 2022 04:15
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Remember when Utah decided they needed laws against transgender kids playing high school sports? As always, transphobes immediately started seeing their fears everywhere, and now resorted to accusing a cisgender girl of being transgender for winning a swim meet. The parents of the second and third place finishers demanded the school district verify the winner's gender. Neither she, nor her parents were told about this. Thankfully someone has two brain cells and they checked via a records search and not a strip search.
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Aug 19, 2022 04:56
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Quorum posted:It does seem to be at least partially genetic in basis, based on stuff like twin studies. A fair bit of the the remaining portion is probably epigenetic but that's all basically magic so who knows what's up with that. genes are the spaghetti code of nature, hell of a lot of stuff interconnected in bizarre ways often activated by equally bizarre stimuli
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