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World Famous W posted:they were agreeing with and adding on to it poo poo, I've edited above, but my apologies Jaxyon.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:23
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, but SF, NYC, D.C., Seattle, Denver, etc. are all massively exploding in cost/population very rapidly because people are moving there and want to move there; not because they had a highly localized baby boom in 2002. I want you to walk through what places are "perfectly fine" to live in, and importantly who they are perfectly fine for, that have somehow not become one of the many etc. of your category of places where people have moved.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:25
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Gerund posted:I want you to walk through what places are "perfectly fine" to live in, and importantly who they are perfectly fine for, that have somehow not become one of the many etc. of your category of places where people have moved. There's plenty of places - even places very close to the areas that are blowing up! Fresno is about an hour and 15 minutes away from LA, but has a median home price that is 1/4 of LA and an above average median income. Fresno, Pittsburgh, Montpelier, Wilmington, Philadelphia, Spokane, Sacramento, and dozens of other major mid-sized urban or ex-urban areas are not hellholes. The vast vast majority of people in the U.S. live outside of the major metro areas of CA and NY.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:33
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How long do you have to live in a mid-tier Midwestern city before they issue you your Real American credentials? Do you need to cut brush or mow a lawn a certain number of times?
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Aug 16, 2022 20:38
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Nessus posted:How long do you have to live in a mid-tier Midwestern city before they issue you your Real American credentials? Do you need to cut brush or mow a lawn a certain number of times? The real cultural divide is urban/rural and not state vs state. People in upstate New York absolutely think that NYC is a void with nothing but crime and weirdos, while many NYC people think upstate New York is filled with hicks that mooch off of the taxes they generate in NYC. Same with Raleigh and the rest of the rural areas of NC, St. Louis and the rest of rural Missouri, etc. etc. etc.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:43
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Nessus posted:How long do you have to live in a mid-tier Midwestern city before they issue you your Real American credentials? Do you need to cut brush or mow a lawn a certain number of times? How long did Dubya spend playing cowboy on his ranch before everyone forgot he was an East Coast Elite scion failson fancyboy? There's your answer
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Aug 16, 2022 20:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The real cultural divide is urban/rural and not state vs state. I'd say it's more the suburbia vs rural divide. It takes you two hours leaving NYC to the north before you hit an area that's majority not just servicing people who work in NYC. Pittsburgh? Hop down I-79 for a short spell and you're in Pennsyltucky pretty drat quick.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The real cultural divide is urban/rural and not state vs state. Kind of a shame to see rural culture homogenize so much, really.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:50
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There’s an urban planning/land use thread in D&D which I can’t link atm that has useful details and expertise on these subjects.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Fresno is about an hour and 15 minutes away from LA, but has a median home price that is 1/4 of LA and an above average median income. Not to take away from your point since it's a good point, but Fresno is between 3 1/2 and 4 hours from LA. Do you mean Lancaster, maybe?
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Aug 16, 2022 20:58
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E-Diddy posted:Not to take away from your point since it's a good point, but Fresno is between 3 1/2 and 4 hours from LA. Do you mean Lancaster, maybe? Yeah, LA is about an hour and 15 mins away from LA. Even with no traffic, it would take me an hour to drive from the Santa Monica pier to the Santa Anita racetrack. And Fresno is on the front line of the worst of the drought/wildfire climate change issues. Good thing the chuds that live there don't believe in it!
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Aug 16, 2022 21:03
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E-Diddy posted:Not to take away from your point since it's a good point, but Fresno is between 3 1/2 and 4 hours from LA. Do you mean Lancaster, maybe? I meant Fresno. But, the time estimate was based on what California.com had listed.  I'm guessing they mean the entire metro area and not downtown LA/Freso. 
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Aug 16, 2022 21:05
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Fresno is 2 1/2 hours away at best from downtown LA. That estimate is counting LAs outskirts and just doing a mile per hour basis as opposed to actually driving there. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, but SF, NYC, D.C., Seattle, Denver, etc. are all massively exploding in cost/population very rapidly because people are moving there and want to move there; not because they had a highly localized baby boom in 2002. The jobs there also pay way more too. My NYC based job pays 50 percent more than my Detroit based job, for instance, for the same thing. Remote work is starting to break the system though, thanks to COVID. Getting 65 an hour remote for a job in California where the same job pays 35 an hour in Cleveland (literal pay there Ive seen for prqctixally the same jobs) is making housing prices rise in downtown Cleveland since people are now able to afford more. Not sure how all of that's going to pan out as more and more people are working from other cities and living in cheaper cities while doing so. Darko fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 21:08
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Darko posted:Fresno is 2 1/2 hours away at best from downtown LA. uhhh
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Aug 16, 2022 21:11
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Discendo Vox posted:There’s an urban planning/land use thread in D&D which I can’t link atm that has useful details and expertise on these subjects. This one? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3864792
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Aug 16, 2022 21:13
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Darko posted:Fresno is 2 1/2 hours away at best from downtown LA. That estimate is counting LAs outskirts and just doing a mile per hour basis as opposed to actually driving there. Fresno is 4 hours from LA city hall, right now 1pm on a Tuesday. It's probably 6 during either rush hour. People coming coming in from Lancaster, Inland Empire, or Stanta Clarita valley are doing 2, 2.5 hours each way. The lady who sits next to me is doing that drive. Man if only there was a high speed rail line connecting through Fresno.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:14
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Typo, is supposed to be 3 1/2. And that's early morning, and a generous expression of downtown.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:15
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Unless you grew up in the area and your whole family is in LA or something, you couldn't convince me that kind of science fiction level of traffic is worth it. A huge part of your life, just wasted on the drat road.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:16
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Rigel posted:Unless you grew up in the area and your whole family is in LA or something, you couldn't convince me that kind of science fiction level of traffic is worth it. A huge part of your life, just wasted on the drat road. LA is pretty bad, but Boston has actually been the worst city for traffic/most congested U.S. city for several years. The average Boston commuter spends an extra 149 hours per year on the road due to traffic congestion. https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/10-cities-with-the-worst-traffic-in-the-us
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Aug 16, 2022 21:18
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Rigel posted:Unless you grew up in the area and your whole family is in LA or something, you couldn't convince me that kind of science fiction level of traffic is worth it. A huge part of your life, just wasted on the drat road. There's generally enough in your area to keep you occupied, especially if you live in a better area - and more people in your general vicinity than any Midwestern city thats not Chicago. Even stuff like Tinder, etc. have people saying "no Valley" and stuff because nobody wants to drive. LA just isn't really sprawled like most Midwest cities - its dense because there's no unoccupied land between city center and suburbs.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:19
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That’s it, thanks- it wasn’t showing up on the awful app for some reason.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:30
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Rigel posted:Unless you grew up in the area and your whole family is in LA or something, you couldn't convince me that kind of science fiction level of traffic is worth it. A huge part of your life, just wasted on the drat road. Your kids are in a good school, you can afford a house, and your family is nearby and can help with the kids. That's what I mean by family situations preventing moves. Many people simply don't have that option. You need to be near grandma in case she gets sick and also she picks the kids up and drives them to practice on tuesdays/thursdays. If your a single white 20-something with no close family, uterus, or gender nonconformity, sure, move to KC and work remote while enjoying the cost of living. But for many others it's not that simple, even taking the "lots of jobs are in big cities" part of it.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I meant Fresno. But, the time estimate was based on what California.com had listed. The median income in Fresno is substantially lower than in LA, a significantly larger portion of the population is under the poverty line, and the unemployment rate is higher. Homes may be cheaper, but the local economy is worse off: you'll have a harder time finding a job (and it'll pay less) unless you take on a long commute. Of course, remote work has the potential to upset that dynamic by letting people move out to poorer areas while keeping their rich-area job. But while that's good for the white collar folks flocking to lesser-known cities, it's very likely to end up as a wave of gentrification flowing outward from major urban areas.
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Aug 16, 2022 21:39
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Main Paineframe posted:The median income in Fresno is substantially lower than in LA, a significantly larger portion of the population is under the poverty line, and the unemployment rate is higher. Homes may be cheaper, but the local economy is worse off: you'll have a harder time finding a job (and it'll pay less) unless you take on a long commute. Yeah, dawg. That is the whole point. Nobody is arguing that Fresno is the greatest American metropolitan area or better than LA. It's that there are many mid-sized (and several large!) metro areas in the U.S. where the median home price is 4x the median wage and not 16x the median wage. These places are all perfectly fine places to live and not hellholes. They should dramatically increase the supply of housing, up-zone, improve public transit, reduce sprawl, etc. in major metro areas. But, the people complaining that they moved to SF or Boston and it is wildly unaffordable and also saying "Sure, you can live in Pittsburgh, but are you really even living at that point?" are discounting many locales that are perfectly nice places to make a life. Fresno, Pittsburgh, and many many other cities are perfectly fine places where you can make the median wage, afford a house, and still have access to good food, entertainment, etc. People are making it seem like it would be an absolute nightmare to live in Pittsburgh or Hartford.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They should dramatically increase the supply of housing, up-zone, improve public transit, reduce sprawl, etc. in major metro areas. But, the people complaining that they moved to SF or Boston and it is wildly unaffordable and also saying "Sure, you can live in Pittsburgh, but are you really even living at that point?" are discounting many locales that are perfectly nice places to make a life. Fresno, Pittsburgh, and many many other cities are perfectly fine places where you can make the median wage, afford a house, and still have access to good food, entertainment, etc. Again, this doesn't address the social issues that people who aren't white straight cismen might face, and also doesn't take into account having extended family living near you which is extremely relevant to lots of people as far as ability to move. And I say that as a white straight cis man with no blood family within 2000 miles of me who lives in LA Metro area.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Fresno, Pittsburgh, Montpelier, Wilmington, Philadelphia, Spokane, Sacramento, and dozens of other major mid-sized urban or ex-urban areas are not hellholes. The vast vast majority of people in the U.S. live outside of the major metro areas of CA and NY. I'm not well versed in the other places other than to have heard of them as small/mid-sized urban areas, but Montpelier VT does not belong on that list at all. It has a population of 10,000 and downtown such as it is is literally 2 blocks.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's plenty of places - even places very close to the areas that are blowing up! There's still a massive difference between moving from Seattle to Spokane and Seattle to the Midwest, Appalachia or South. Spokane still benefits massively from being situated in a coastal, political trifecta state - abortions are easy to get, voting districts tend to be fair and mail-in voting has been the norm for years, healthcare was generally available even during COVID-19 spikes (WA gave out vents and took in patients from out of state), the state minimum wage is high (not high enough) and tied to inflation, weed has been legal forever and gently caress even the DMVs are fast and most of that poo poo can be done online anyway. It's not a leftist utopia by any sense of the word, but it's not the same as moving elsewhere. That's my issue here, the idea that you can just swap living areas and nothing changes or it's always going to be "good enough" isn't true.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:14
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Jaxyon posted:Again, this doesn't address the social issues that people who aren't white straight cismen might face, and also doesn't take into account having extended family living near you which is extremely relevant to lots of people as far as ability to move. The cities they named were Fresno and Pittsburgh, which are as good as anywhere else for people who aren't Straight Cis White Guys. They're diverse cities in blue states. The family thing you are obviously correct about though.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:15
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Jaxyon posted:Again, this doesn't address the social issues that people who aren't white straight cismen might face, and also doesn't take into account having extended family living near you which is extremely relevant to lots of people as far as ability to move. A) Nobody claimed that this is the ideal solution for literally every person. Many people can't move for one reason or another, but the people moving to SF or Austin or Seattle obviously do not have an issue with moving as a concept. B) What social issues are facing a non-white non-straight non-cis person in Buffalo that they don't face in New York City? This isn't state specific, there are mid-sized urban and exurban areas in every single state. Solkanar512 posted:There's still a massive difference between moving from Seattle to Spokane and Seattle to the Midwest, Appalachia or South. Spokane still benefits massively from being situated in a coastal, political trifecta state - abortions are easy to get, voting districts tend to be fair and mail-in voting has been the norm for years, healthcare was generally available even during COVID-19 spikes (WA gave out vents and took in patients from out of state), the state minimum wage is high (not high enough) and tied to inflation, weed has been legal forever and gently caress even the DMVs are fast and most of that poo poo can be done online anyway. Yes, that is the point. Nobody is saying everyone in the country needs to move to Spokane. Just that people who move to Seattle can move to Spokane and enjoy a very similar quality of life for a much cheaper cost. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:17
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The good things about Fresno and Sac is you can get up to 8,000 feet in the Sierra Nevada within 2 hrs while it's not burning 
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Aug 16, 2022 22:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A) Nobody claimed that this is the ideal solution for literally every person. Many people can't move for one reason or another, but the people moving to SF or Austin or Seattle obviously do not have an issue with moving as a concept. Many people living in those areas didn't move there, they lived there and it's become unaffordable and moving isn't an option. Talking up affordable random cities and then saying "sure we need to do a bunch of changes to cities" doesn't really address the main issue. quote:B) What social issues are facing a non-white non-straight non-cis person in Buffalo that they don't face in New York City? This isn't state specific, there are mid-sized urban and exurban areas in every single state. Western NY outside of places such as, say, Ithaca, is very conservative and if you're not in literal downtown is pretty chuddy. NY is mostly a red state outside of NYC. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:24
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Jaxyon posted:Western NY outside of places such as, say, Ithaca, is very conservative and if you're not in literal downtown is pretty chuddy. Buffalo is basically the worst possible example you could pick for that. It is almost a majority minority city and not chuddy at all. Every state, even California or Illinois, has extremely chuddy areas outside of the major cities. If that disqualifies the entire state outside of one metro area, then you're going to need to exile most non-whites/straight Americans to a floating island nation. Every state is a red state outside of the major urban areas. Vermont is literally the only state in the union that would be a blue state without its largest urban metro area. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:27
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Jaxyon posted:Western NY outside of places such as, say, Ithaca, is very conservative and if you're not in literal downtown is pretty chuddy. The most recent mayoral election in Buffalo was between the incumbent, who was an ordinary Democrat, and India Walton, who was a self-identified socialist. The Republican got 23 votes. In 2020 Biden got 77% of the vote in Buffalo. I don't think they're chuds, Jaxyon.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Buffalo is basically the worst possible example you could pick for that. It is almost a majority minority city and not chuddy at all. You from there? Because I can assure you it gets real chuddy real quick once you leave the city. Did you forget about the racially motivated supermarket massacre? I'm aware he drove to buffalo specifically to find minorities, but that misses the point of him having to drive for hours to find significant amounts of non-white people.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:30
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The most recent mayoral election in Buffalo was between the incumbent, who was an ordinary Democrat, and India Walton, who was a self-identified socialist. The Republican got 23 votes. Buffalo, sure. Surrounding counties mostly went 70/30 ish  https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/new-york/
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Aug 16, 2022 22:35
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Jaxyon posted:You from there? I've kind of lost the plot of this argument. I don't mean that in a dickish way, but I don't understand at all how Buffalo is chuddy or how the fact that if someone can drive 6 hours to your city to shoot people, then it isn't affordable anymore. There are more shootings, including mass shootings in NYC than Buffalo. So, that would kick NYC out of contention for any non-white people. I legitimately think there is a miscommunication or something that I am missing. Jaxyon posted:Buffalo, sure. The district right next to Brooklyn is literally the chuddiest district in the state and provided Trump with more votes than every county touching Buffalo combined.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:36
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Jaxyon posted:Buffalo, sure. Yeah if we're talking about Western NY outside the cities it's a different story (it's the rural/suburban America story). But you were responding to a post about Buffalo
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Aug 16, 2022 22:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I've kind of lost the plot of this argument. I don't mean that in a dickish way, but I don't understand at all how Buffalo is chuddy or how the fact that if someone can drive 6 hours to your city to shoot people, then it isn't affordable anymore. There are more shootings, including mass shootings in NYC than Buffalo. So, that would kick NYC out of contention for any non-white people. Let me help: Jaxyon posted:Many people living in those areas didn't move there, they lived there and it's become unaffordable and moving isn't an option. Talking up affordable random cities and then saying "sure we need to do a bunch of changes to cities" doesn't really address the main issue. People may not be able to move due to family reasons, or they may not be interested in moving due to social ones. I grew up in a suburb an easy commute to a WNY city, with like 1 black person in my entire school, and they were constantly harassed and targetted. All the gay kids were closeted. That's a few decades ago now, but those are real concerns people have. Talking up random affordable cities is like saying that you can eat cheap with a crock pot, when people talk about about rising food costs. It is technically true and misses the point. Civilized Fishbot posted:Yeah if we're talking about Western NY outside the cities it's a different story (it's the rural/suburban America story). But you were responding to a post about Buffalo Speaking of being technically true and missing the point... Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The district right next to Brooklyn is literally the chuddiest district in the state and provided Trump with more votes than every county touching Buffalo combined. Wow that's useful to add to this conversation! Another thing that is technically true but misses the point! Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:39
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Any of you from there, or you just trying to be technically correct, the best kind of correct?
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Aug 16, 2022 22:44
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I grew up near Buffalo. Not sure this argument is going anywhere interesting, there’s always going to be some kind of excuse for someone not to do something. That doesn’t seem all that relevant to the argument that there are many mid-size cities that offer appealing lifestyles.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:46
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