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some kinda jackal posted:I mean I'm not in danger of buying an EV or scooter so it's a moot point for me. Is it a non-issue though? I'm sure it's a figured out thing now, but I rode an Aprilia Mana once (the one with the automatic transmission) and nearly dropped it doing a u-turn at a dead end street. Without a clutch to modulate power to the wheel, you have to do all the high fidelity modulation with the throttle, and at a certain point you get nothing to the wheel and the bike is like 'welp, guess we're done with moving forward'. Never having ridden a scooter, it caught me off guard. Electric bikes it's probably a non issue, as long as the person who programmed the throttle and motor controller output wasn't an idiot. You could have the thing creep with just the slightest throttle. I'm not sure I'd trust a DCT Honda at low speed though. I'd be very nervous.
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Aug 16, 2022 14:36
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I haven't ridden an electric bike but I've had EVs for a few years and I love how responsive they are. I barely use the brake, you just use the throttle to control your speed and it does exactly what you want
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Aug 16, 2022 14:39
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Opopanax posted:I haven't ridden an electric bike but I've had EVs for a few years and I love how responsive they are. I barely use the brake, you just use the throttle to control your speed and it does exactly what you want That's how the LiveWire felt during my brief test ride
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Aug 16, 2022 14:41
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I have a offroad electric chinese scooter. It'll do 40mph fairly easy. 2000w to each wheel. Never have topped it out, it is unstable and a standing one. It has selectable "gears" - 3 of them. They emulate it by changing the pulse width and strength to the BLDC motots. It actually makes a big difference. First "gear" is like a tractor mode where I could probably tow a skateboarder through grass but tops out at idk 15mph. The third "gear" has no torque but goes fast. It's not a pointless emulation either, has to do with how long each coil is turned on. I don't know if it will make it to real motorcycles, or if it did if it would come in the form of automatic traction control instead of user control. I am not particularly interested in EVs or bikes outside of toys. Waiting for new battery tech. SSH IT ZOMBIE fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 15:39
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I think the most impressive part of your statement is that you have a two wheel drive electric bike???
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Aug 16, 2022 16:06
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I think the most impressive part of your statement is that you have a two wheel drive electric bike??? Yeah that is correct. It is a scooter though, off road. It has a removable seat but it's silly. Yume makes them, they are absolute deathtraps. Only mentioned it because electric bikes and lack of gears was mentioned. I think we might see it in the form of selectable power control, as it is possible to adjust torque on bldc motors. Edit: These are hub motor driven, probably completely different animal and not impressive 😂 SSH IT ZOMBIE fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 16:23
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Low speed stuff on my Zero is a non-issue. They did a great job programming the throttle and you can modulate at low speeds perfectly. Switching off with the 919, no real issue forgetting to clutch or anything like that. The only thing that I think would trip me up is if I did what some Zero owners do: relocate the rear brake to the left handlebar. I'd never do that because I'm sure sooner or later I'd grab a handful of brake thinking it was the clutch.
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Aug 16, 2022 16:45
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I think the most impressive part of your statement is that you have a two wheel drive electric bike???
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Aug 16, 2022 17:34
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Past few posts led me down a rabbit hole of ebikes and how big the hub motors can go. They are starting to come out with 12-14kW hub engines. Those would propel a motorcycle to speeds comparable to 300-500cc bikes. I've seen people do conversions on like Groms and stuff. NY you are allowed to register a custom motorcycle. It would be an interesting experiment. I am half tempted to hit up the DMV and get the packet.
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Aug 16, 2022 17:44
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opengl128 posted:Low speed stuff on my Zero is a non-issue. They did a great job programming the throttle and you can modulate at low speeds perfectly. I honestly love scooter style rear brake and one of the most appealing points of an electric would be that for me. You can ride fast so much better if you can control the rear brake with your hand, totally independent of body position etc. My main worry would be some overly concerned programmer making it so the motor loses power when you touch the brake or something.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:25
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That is exactly what happens on the rental electric scooters here.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:53
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I have never been on an electric vehicle where you were able to keep power going to the motor and apply the brake at the same time. Granted my sample size is limited, but it seems like a common ”safety” thing
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Aug 16, 2022 18:57
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Yeah all the chinese controllers disengage motor power when the brake switch is active. No burnouts! Too be fair, I think it is because that also enables regen.
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Aug 16, 2022 18:59
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Also builds up more heat, if that electrical energy isn't converting into kinetic energy it dissipates as thermal energy in the motor.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:17
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I doubt they'd ever allow that for thermal reasons. I could be remembering wrong but I think Tesla already pumps coolant through the shaft of their motors.
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Aug 16, 2022 19:34
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SEKCobra posted:Yeah all the chinese controllers disengage motor power when the brake switch is active. No burnouts! Admittedly I haven't tried using the rear brake under power, but my Zero will happily roast the tire all day long if you give it throttle and front brake.
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Aug 16, 2022 20:58
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The motor should be able to handle that just fine. Locking up the rear wheel while being on throttle would burn the motor or driver (if not current limited) out after a minute or so, but just dragging the brake like you do when low speed manouvring is completely fine. For the motor it's no different than going up a steep incline. The electric rental scooter i rode in Rotterdam was able to rear brake and throttle at the same time. Which was good, because the first bit of throttle was very hard to modulate. Like, 50% throttle in 20% of the range of movement, and after that you gotta crank it all the way open to make any progress. No idea what brand that was. The Cake Kalk didn't have the throttle/brake interlock either. That one had a much nicer, smoother throttle though. The regenerative braking thing is a bit of an issue. You can't be on throttle and regenerate at the same time. Whether it's possible to brake and apply power at the same time completely depends on how the regeneration is set up. On a conventional bike, you often end up reducing the engine brake effect by applying a small amount of throttle. You don't always snap the throttle closed. On an electric, there is no engine braking. The electric motor offers almost no resistance when there's no current applied to or drawn from it. This means that when you want the same behavior, you need regenerative braking to not waste energy. There are, as far as i am aware, no brake systems that incorporate a lever position sensor yet. So modulating the amount of regenerative braking can only be done with the throttle grip. It would also feel really weird if at 1% throttle you can be slowing down just from practically coasting, but at 0% throttle you get all regenerative braking at once. Imagine the gently slowing down thing again. The bike must now be programmed to actually start regenerative braking, even though you're literally still on the throttle. It will have to do this, until the energy delivered by the motor, is theoretically identical to the energy the motor consumes at that specific throttle position under power. But that also means that you can't do the 'brake and throttle' thing. You could program it in such a way that touching the mech brake makes the regenerative stop, but that would likely feel extremely weird because the brake switch makes the brake force seem to disappear first before the mech brake effect can be felt. Unless you just completely forgo regenerative braking below 10km/h or so. Which is a reasonable compromise imho, there's not much energy to be harvested from those final 10km/h. An alternative is to change the expected behavior of bikes pretty heavily, with no 'engine braking' anymore and regenerative braking regulated by squeezing the brake lever, which now has an 'upper section' that works for the regen brake, which transitions into regen + mechanical if you press it further than halfway or something like it. That stuff is in a different way fairly common in diesel city buses in my country: first the hydraulic retarder kicks in, and when you press the pedal down more, you'll hit the conventional brakes. My brain is breaking up, this poo poo is complicated. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 21:30
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Does regenerative braking significantly slow down vehicles in the way mechanical brakes do? You'd have to place a massive current load on the engine to slow it down, batteries usually trickle charge in comparison to how fast they are drawn from when accelerating. You'd need like a massive capacitor or flywheel energy storage havester.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:03
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EV motorcycle havers, does the regen have any weird effects on weight transfer as you're loading up into a corner for instance? I know we harp on this in newbie thread and elsewhere here that as you ride you don't want to have a slack drivetrain and unloaded frame because that means you likely have little front tire traction. I assume this is a non issue since there are plenty of very sporty EV motorcycles going very fast in various tracks/hill climbs etc. I really need to demo a zero at the local dealer. Russian Bear fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 22:13
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Russian Bear posted:EV motorcycle havers, does the regen have any weird effects on weight transfer as you're loading up into a corner for instance? I know we harp on this in newbie thread and elsewhere here that as you ride you don't want to have a slack drivetrain and unloaded frame because that means you likely have little front tire traction. I assume this is a non issue since there are plenty of very sporty EV motorcycles going very fast in various tracks/hill climbs etc. Have you ridden V-twins or thumpers a lot? Think of them having really high compression engines with tons of engine braking. Almost all the electric motorcycles out there have tunable regen settings so you can tune it to a level you prefer. I own an Energica Ego 'cause I like to go fast, and DC fast charging is a plus. The reverse gear comes in clutch when I park in my garage at home.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:28
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SSH IT ZOMBIE posted:Does regenerative braking significantly slow down vehicles in the way mechanical brakes do? You'd have to place a massive current load on the engine to slow it down, batteries usually trickle charge in comparison to how fast they are drawn from when accelerating. You'd need like a massive capacitor or flywheel energy storage havester. Regen braking works very well and most EVs only use their brake pads during emergency braking.
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Aug 16, 2022 22:33
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Today's batteries can handle a shitton of charge current. Charging with 1c (1 time the battery capacity in ampere hours, or watt hours) is standard. So if you have a 14kWh battery like on a bunch of Zeros, you can regeneratively brake with 14kW of power as much as you want. But even more than 1c is completely acceptable. 2c is becoming more and more acceptable, especially for short duration. So that means braking with 28kW of power. And i'd dare say that for short busts, charging as fast as you normally discharge should also kinda be possible, but it depends a bit on the cells used if they like that or not. Compare that to the power output of a Ninja 300's gasoline angine and you'll be having about as much regenerative braking as the ninja 300 has in power to propel the bike forward. In other words, you'd go from 100 to 10km/h with regenerative braking in something like 8 seconds. Charging at these speeds, however, is not ideal. It is less efficient and if your battery is full, you can't do it at all. For regenerative braking many capacitor companies around the world are researching supercapacitors. On bikes it's still not really feasible because of the size, but for trucks and buses they're definitely a possibility. You can dump >100kW of power into a capacitor with ease during a couple of seconds of braking, and then discharge it to slowly charge the battery over the course of 10 minutes or so. Regenerative braking in corners is the same as engine braking in corners. If you set the bike to not have regenerative braking or when your battery is full, rolling off the throttle will be like pulling in the clutch. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Aug 16, 2022 |
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Aug 16, 2022 23:00
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Interesting. Do real electric motorcycles do any kind of rheostatic braking when the bat is full? Like they could dump current into a low impedence heating coil and cool it.
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Aug 17, 2022 01:13
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re: capacitors, more than likely you'll discharge most of what you have in them back into the motor again rather than into the batteries I'd thinkSSH IT ZOMBIE posted:Interesting. Do real electric motorcycles do any kind of rheostatic braking when the bat is full? Like they could dump current into a low impedence heating coil and cool it. Doubtful. I actually contemplated doing just that on my e-bakfiets. The problem I was trying to solve was my mechanical brakes overheating on hill descents when loaded heavily. Turned out the cheaper, easier and more compact option was to buy a new speed controller with regen support and dump the energy into the battery instead. It's only a 500W motor so braking power is equally limited but it's enough to spare the discs - they are normally only needed for emergencies and shedding the last little bit of speed before coming to a complete stop. As for overcharging the batteries by regen I think that would only be a real world problem if you start your ride at high elevation with the battery completely full - most good EVs avoid charging to the actual 100% capacity since you get way more life out of LiPos if you limit your charge to less, ideally around 80% or so.
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Aug 17, 2022 05:52
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One thing I know is that I don't want regenerative braking on the front wheel, which means it's limited to the back wheel, which can generate about two fifths of gently caress all grip under deceleration so the cap on what you can do is probably mechanical.
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Aug 17, 2022 05:57
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Slavvy posted:One thing I know is that I don't want regenerative braking on the front wheel, which means it's limited to the back wheel, which can generate about two fifths of gently caress all grip under deceleration so the cap on what you can do is probably mechanical. You also don't have a motor on the front wheel, so it's not like anyone is gonna think about giving you regen there. Regen braking is perfect for normal deceleration, where you are not going near any limits or worried about grip or anything. While I like the idea of EVs, I don't think bikes are nearly there yet. Electric cars are beginning to be proper cars, but the bike scene with basically just one manufacturer (Zero) seems way too immature to me. I also think they should stop trying to make the bikes work exactly like the ICE version and just try new things. One pedal driving ended up being the absolute crowd favorite on electric cars as well.
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Aug 17, 2022 06:43
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Idk 'deceleration' isn't a thing you should be doing regardless of what is powering the bike cause it's a crap way to slow down, you have no real control over your speed and the tires are loaded poorly. Cars are much, much simpler wrt how weight transfer affects grip because they don't also have geometry changes to deal with.
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Aug 17, 2022 06:58
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SEKCobra posted:One pedal driving ended up being the absolute crowd favorite on electric cars as well. Maybe in traffic. Importantly Teslas don't have proper blended brakes so the only regeneration you get is from the engine braking / 1-pedal milk float mode. All other manufacturers have a system that seamlessly transitions between regen and friction brakes. Driving in the city yeah maybe there's a case but I definitely want separate accelerator and "brake" for mountain roads.
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Aug 17, 2022 07:04
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Slavvy posted:Idk 'deceleration' isn't a thing you should be doing regardless of what is powering the bike cause it's a crap way to slow down, you have no real control over your speed and the tires are loaded poorly. Cars are much, much simpler wrt how weight transfer affects grip because they don't also have geometry changes to deal with. You never just slow down? Like for a speed sign or red light?
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Aug 17, 2022 07:47
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SEKCobra posted:You never just slow down? Like for a speed sign or red light? Absolutely, using the brakes, like you're supposed to.
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Aug 17, 2022 07:48
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Slavvy posted:Absolutely, using the brakes, like you're supposed to. I just ease of the throttle, but you do you.
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Aug 17, 2022 08:00
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I'll keep riding properly yeah
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Aug 17, 2022 08:03
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What is riding improper about slowing down in a straight line without braking?
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Aug 17, 2022 08:14
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SEKCobra posted:What is riding improper about slowing down in a straight line without braking? Because you’re covering the front brake anyway, in case engine braking is not enough right? So just use your brakes.
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Aug 17, 2022 08:50
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You're not gonna use your brakes, if braking would give you too much brake effect. I don't think anyone's talking about deliberately downshifting to get engine revs up very high to get maximum engine braking effect just to slow down a bit. That's definitely bad form. The only reason to do that is when you're going down long mountain roads, so you don't roast your brakes when you need them before entering a sharp corner. But in many scenarios you don't want to slow down faster than just by closing the throttle. You'd absolutely fail the test if you aggressively slow down for every speed sign or hazard on the road, when you could've solved it by lifting off. Recognizing the situations in which you get off the gas VS actually press or squeeze the brake are literally part of the traffic theory tests you get for both bike and car. You get 10 of these questions, and you have 8 seconds per question to answer them. They assume defensive driving habits so sometimes they're a bit conservative, but in the end they're usually right.  In this question you don't hit the brakes. You're already going fairly slow, and letting go of the gas is plenty to make you reach an appropriate speed at the speed sign and the zebra crossing in your average manual car or on a bike. Of course you stay ready to hit the brakes if those cyclists walk up to the zebra (E: they're cycling, i thought they were standing on the sidewalk - a limitation of doing tests with static images...) Right before the corner you might add a bit of brake, but it's too early in the situation to already start braking. In an automatic car, you'll have to brake because letting go of the gas is effectively coasting, but the traffic theory exam doesn't go *that* far. Neither does present stuff like entering a corner so fast that letting go of the throttle or braking will upset your vehicle.  In this one, you are gonna hit the brakes. You're going 50km/h and only letting go of the throttle will not slow you down fast enough. You actively brake so you won't hit the truck if it's still in your lane by the time you get there.  In this case you're already going slow, but faster than the bicycles. There is no reason to hit the brakes because you'd be stopped almost immediately. There is no reason to rush the slowing down - the right answer is 'let go of the throttle' so you can stay behind the bicycles, until there is a safe place to overtake them. Again, in an automatic you'll probably run into the cyclists if you just let go of the throttle, but all motorcyclists and 90% of car drivers do their exams in a manual so that's not an issue here. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Aug 17, 2022 |
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Aug 17, 2022 09:46
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knox_harrington posted:Maybe in traffic. Importantly Teslas don't have proper blended brakes so the only regeneration you get is from the engine braking / 1-pedal milk float mode. All other manufacturers have a system that seamlessly transitions between regen and friction brakes. 1 pedal driving rocks actually (in the i3 I've driven a bunch). And it's not like the brake pedal is not there? So when you move off the accelerator that means you've got maximum regen braking, and can "seamlessly" add as much friction brakes as you need. (Just like engine braking on an ICE)
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Aug 17, 2022 12:59
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Even on my 125, before I fiddled with my carburetor last, the pilot air screw was inadvertently adjusted so that the idle mixture was very rich, for years. It had massive deceleration on lack of throttle input, so much so that the last time I changed the brake pads was because the backing rusted and the pads fell apart, not because it needed it. I rarely used the brakes to slow down. During my last carburetor adjustment, I finally saw that the air screw had not been adjusted to its factory settings, which were way leaner (it was like 4 entire turns of a difference). The massive deceleration potential went away, and now I have to use the brakes more often. Aside from the implications of "how stoichiometric my engine is has an effect on my engine braking", if regen braking is anything like the engine braking I had before, you definitely don't need to use the brakes as much as before, even to purposefully slow down. I mean, if you can see what's happening in front of you and there are no surprises.
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Aug 17, 2022 14:40
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Xakura posted:1 pedal driving rocks actually (in the i3 I've driven a bunch). And it's not like the brake pedal is not there? So when you move off the accelerator that means you've got maximum regen braking, and can "seamlessly" add as much friction brakes as you need. (Just like engine braking on an ICE) The Taycan I've driven a bunch (because it's mine) has proper accelerator and brake controls. Having driven friend's model s, I definitely wouldn't prefer one pedal driving for the mountains where I live. Gratuitous car pic 
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Aug 17, 2022 15:34
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knox_harrington posted:The Taycan I've driven a bunch (because it's mine) has proper accelerator and brake controls. Having driven friend's model s, I definitely wouldn't prefer one pedal driving for the mountains where I live. You can disable one-pedal-driving on any car I know of. I do not understand why mountain roads somehow change your needs, because you can still use the brakes? I am not saying it is somehow better or anything, it's just something most people actually like about EVs for some reason and shows that some innovation is never a bad thing. Always trying to emulate old stuff with new technology just hinders progress sometimes. Nothing wrong with a software setting that lets you use it how you like it, which is exactly what all the ones I've driven let you do. Hell, modern automatics (ICE and EV) all let you choose between creep or no creep, motor/regen braking or coasting as far as I can tell.
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Aug 17, 2022 15:40
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knox_harrington posted:The Taycan I've driven a bunch (because it's mine) has proper accelerator and brake controls. Having driven friend's model s, I definitely wouldn't prefer one pedal driving for the mountains where I live. I have no idea why you think having engine braking and braking on the brake pedal is somehow more "proper". Does the car just coast when you let off the accelerator? Like an automatic
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Aug 17, 2022 16:04
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