USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

«‹›279 »

Crows Turn Off: Jan 7, 2008

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

He is a relatively low profile billionaire who owns a surge protector company....

It's a protection racket.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 05:18

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

kzin602 posted:

They were not valid in the first place. If they are criticing the efficacy of masks or 6foot spacing it's not in service of having better standards or based on any science, if their argument lined up with actual science it was only a coincidence or cherrypicked it's in the service of creating an environment of government dysfunction.

By that logic then I think we would both agree that criticism from the left about Fauci and the CDC�s botching of the efficacy for masks (especially N95), parroting lies about 6 feet spacing, and ignoring the science on aerosols are not �conservatives and money devoted to tearing down the federal government� but valid criticism that is being uncharitably labeled as right wing propaganda, right?

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:34

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Somewhat related to that hilarious NYT story about turnout from people vacationing in the Hamptons being enough to decide the primary:

The current turnout for the primary is at ~3%.

https://twitter.com/RichardKimNYC/status/1561792743390732289

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:34

Barrel Cactaur: Oct 6, 2021

Main Paineframe posted:

Anti-lockdown sentiment was strong from the beginning, because a lot of people have very understandable reasons to dislike having basically the entire in-person service industry shut down, not to mention social and entertainment venues of all kinds. The drive to "open 'er up" wasn't just the whim of politicians, it was the result of recognizing that the voters were not very happy with lockdowns.

Of course, it got worse over time, but that's no surprise. Even among the people who were okay with lockdowns, it was under the understanding that they were extremely temporary measures. When the pandemic dragged on for months and eventually years, it's no wonder that people lost patience with it. Only the gooniest of Americans were okay with long-term lockdown.

The rich were hardly the only people who wanted lockdowns ended. After all, wealthy people weren't exactly the worst affected. Sure, many businesses were significantly hampered, but the billionaires had plenty of passive income, and generally had the ability to hire people to do services for them on a personal basis. If the corner store, the hairdresser, and the local gym are shut down, billionaires aren't going to care, they can hire their own personal hairdresser and build their own private gym. And even putting the millionaires and billionaires aside to focus on the working classes, six figgie white collar types were much more likely to be able to do remote work from home and get everything delivered, while blue collar work tends to have to be done in person.

Billionaires went in on it because when lipstick manufacturering etc. was declared noncritical they took a hit to profits. Caring little for this they signal boosted the opposition and were very concerned at all their politicians about it. Republicans, having no morals only a desire for power jumped at the chance, because it was an easy dunk with their entitled and selfish base. It took a lot of work to get soft liberals to also give up and jump on it.

Even psudoprogressive billionaires couldn't help but dip and encourage a cash in. They are never actually on your side. https://khn.org/news/rather-than-give-away-its-covid-vaccine-oxford-makes-a-deal-with-drugmaker/amp/

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:49

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Let�s follow what was said then:

I am not, nor have I ever been part of rose Twitter or any Twitter. My feelings towards Twitter users are well known: you can�t be a leftists and post on Twitter.

I�m also not reskinning some performative �both-sides� as it is all the same side: capitalists.

Condemning Fauci doesn�t mean praise of Trump nor provide him an out. It means Fauci and Trump failed the American people during covid.

Please point out where I �justify Trump� in that post.

Trump fumbled the covid response poorly it killed close to a half a million Americans. However a large population of the public did not trust Trump. They did trust Fauci. Fauci�s well documented fumbling during crucial periods meant that people were not masking up and staying home when they should have.

Again, debate what I said, not what you made up.

To start from the most important point: this is the core claim you make that I am responding to:

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

Awesome. This man helped ensure the covid situation in the US (and by influence, the world) was the worst it could possibly be. I�d argue the damage he did was worse than Trump because libs bought the bought the bullshit manufactured consent Fauci was giving capitalists while pretending they are smarter than Trump loyalists.

If Walensky goes that would be even better.

You have explicitly claimed the damage that Fauci did was "worse than Trump[.]" That is explicitly creating a comparison between Fauci and Trump, and putting Trump in the "less damaging" side of the ledger. That's a thing you said, and what I have been repeatedly attacking and you have (for the first time) made some vague reference suggesting any sort of basis for such a ludicrious claim. Again: I have accurately summarized your position; of course you are free to reverse it if you have reconsidered.

Your claim that Fauci's failure on recommending masking while asymtomatic transmission was not what the relevant expert organizations had agreed was occurring, during February/March, is anywhere close to as damaging is obviously false just by looking at the death charts: the vast majority of those deaths took place after Fauci corrected the guidance - and at the time the guidance was against masks, the guidance was stay the gently caress home (in opposition to your claim that he was suggesting people not stay home when they should have); and that masks were in short supply (hence, the rationale for not encouraging masks because it would make it harder for hospitals to get them) so pro-masking messaging wouldn't have been able to do as much as you implicitly claim because the masks weren't there for people to use. Having been in NYC, I know for an absolute fact that when the guidance was reversed and masks were recommended (and obtainable), people who trusted Fauci were wearing the masks. And before that, people tried to not ever leave their houses unless they needed to.

Fauci made more than one wrong decision based on incomplete information. Not recommending masks prior to early April was one of them. Suggesting that caused anywhere close to the damage of the President of the United States knowingly making wrong decisions time and time again knowing the correct information is nonsense.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 20:53

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

evilweasel posted:

To start from the most important point: this is the core claim you make that I am responding to:

You have explicitly claimed the damage that Fauci did was "worse than Trump[.]" That is explicitly creating a comparison between Fauci and Trump, and putting Trump in the "less damaging" side of the ledger. That's a thing you said, and what I have been repeatedly attacking and you have (for the first time) made some vague reference suggesting any sort of basis for such a ludicrious claim. Again: I have accurately summarized your position; of course you are free to reverse it if you have reconsidered.

�Less damaging� is not implicitly:

evilweasel posted:

parroting right-wing poo poo about trying to tear him down for trying to do things to justify trump, well, not isn't great.

Nor is it somehow stating Trump has no fault or minimal fault to the US covid response.

Please do better when formulating your arguments instead of putting words in my posts I didn�t write. Thank you.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 21:01

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Yet another mass shooting. This time in Atlanta.

Shooter escaped the scene, but is in the Colony Square Building.

No word on motives or the status of the people shot.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1561808537394749443

# ? Aug 22, 2022 21:15

kzin602: May 14, 2007; Grimey Drawer

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

By that logic then I think we would both agree that criticism from the left about Fauci and the CDC’s botching of the efficacy for masks (especially N95), parroting lies about 6 feet spacing, and ignoring the science on aerosols are not “conservatives and money devoted to tearing down the federal government” but valid criticism that is being uncharitably labeled as right wing propaganda, right?

I am not a disease expert so I do not know the efficacy of cloth masks everyone was wearing vs actual N95 masks or if spacing did anything. Regardless of science, I enjoyed the 6ft rule and masking up because people loving suck.

...But I do know that conservative arguments against masks were not related to efficacy or science but because "the deep state wants to muzzle us" or "china produced a bioweapon to destroy our economy". Not a single person who got in my face or gave me poo poo because I had a mask on was making an argument with any bearing in logic, science or a desire to improve their community.

We may be talking past each other:

My argument that the CDC reports to HHS and conservatives appoint HHS leadership who's goals are not to ensure the success of the agencies mission but to tear it down at every opportunity creating an environment of dysfunction that encouraged ineffective mandates.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 21:32

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

kzin602 posted:

But I do know that conservative arguments against masks were not related to efficacy or science but because "the deep state wants to muzzle us" or "china produced a bioweapon to destroy our economy". Not a single person who got in my face or gave me poo poo because I had a mask on was making an argument with any bearing in logic, science or a desire to improve their community.

No disagreement from me. You are correct that conservatives were pushing the deep state nonsense narrative.

However is should be noted, I did see criticism from liberals (including in this forum) towards folks requesting/demanding the CDC push for N95 masks instead of outright telling folks not to wear N95 masks. I also recall a lot of anti-China rhetoric from liberals as well, especially towards the covid infection numbers.

quote:

We may be talking past each other:

My argument that the CDC reports to HHS and conservatives appoint HHS leadership who's goals are not to ensure the success of the agencies mission but to tear it down at every opportunity creating an environment of dysfunction that encouraged ineffective mandates.

You may be right. I think I mistook your comment to mean �criticism from the left was parroting right wing propaganda.� My bad.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 21:56

marshmonkey: Dec 5, 2003; I was sick of looking
at your stupid avatar
so
have a cool cat instead.; Switchblade Switcharoo

More about secret billionaire man: https://www.propublica.org/article/dark-money-leonard-leo-barre-seid

# ? Aug 22, 2022 22:18

Jim Eagle: Aug 18, 2022; by Hand Knit

evilweasel posted:

Having been in NYC, I know for an absolute fact that when the guidance was reversed and masks were recommended (and obtainable), people who trusted Fauci were wearing the masks. And before that, people tried to not ever leave their houses unless they needed to.

Do you have any way of knowing this or is this just anecdote presented as data

Your argument also presumes that Trump is capable of knowing things which does not seem supported by evidence

# ? Aug 22, 2022 22:36

Fritz the Horse: Dec 26, 2019; ... of course!

Reading that Kramer letter is really interesting given hindsight and 30+ years of research on HIV treatment. It's incredible how far we've come with medications both for prevention and treatment. Here's a bit of an effortpost on modern HIV treatment and the stuff mentioned in Kramer's letter, during college I worked for three years in HIV testing, counseling, prevention, treatment. Kramer actually ends up being incorrect on the substance of his accusations against Fauci, Kramer is mostly accusing Fauci of hawking bad treatments for profit. I won't say Kramer is wrong because in 1988 our understanding of HIV treatment was very preliminary and the queer community had every reason to distrust the government at that time. Thirty-odd years later his main points in the letter have been shown to be incorrect. I dunno if that was part of why he eventually came to praise Fauci.

First, Kramer accuses Fauci of being a murderer because he oversaw trials of antiretroviral drugs. Kramer wants Fauci to give up on trying to attack the actual virus and focus more on boosting peoples' immune systems and preventing opportunistic infections.

quote:

Clinical trials: government sanctioned mass murder of PWAs

Anthony Fauci, you are a murderer because you oversee government sponsored clinical trials that test and retest combinations of immunosuppressive, toxic therapies that kill people with HIV. The majority of U.S. clinical trials involve worthless antivirals like AZT combined with some other drug (generally another toxic antiviral). What these tests have proven is that you are able to piss away billions of dollars testing dangerous compounds that DO NOTHING to improve the quality of life, to stop opportunistic infections or to extend survival for people with HIV. AZT, 3TC, ddI, ddC, d4T and the current crop of protease inhibitors are nothing but poison. Ten years of the plague has shown us that trying to kill the virus kills people with AIDS, and you, Dr. Fauci, know it.

How long will it take you to start focusing on the immune system, how to boost it and how to prevent the opportunistic infections that are killing people with AIDS? Even you admit that "the immune response against HIV is extremely powerful and is clearly more effective than any of the therapeutic approaches currently available in controlling virus replication." Still , you give your blessing to clinical trials of highly profitable toxins that destroy PWAs' already compromised immune systems.

The drug names I've highlighted above are all part of the first family of HIV antiretrovirals, reverse transcriptase inhibitors. This first generation of drugs were indeed pretty toxic and nasty--hard on your liver, caused nausea, fatigue, other side effects. They were moderately effective, people with AIDS could expect to live a few additional years on these drugs. The "DO NOTHING" part is simply incorrect, the drugs did work, they just had bad side effects and the virus quickly developed mutations which rendered them ineffective. The major breakthrough in HIV treatment was in 1996 when a new class of HIV drugs, protease inhibitors, were given in addition to the reverse transcriptase inhibitors mentioned above. If patients were taking just one drug, it's not as effective and the virus quickly develops resistance. If patients are taking two types of drugs, it's much more effective therapy and there's much less chance of the virus developing resistance.

Second, Kramer accuses Fauci of pushing CD4 and viral load tests for profit, which Kramer thinks are useless and instead patients should focus on boosting their CD8 count

quote:

CD4s and viral load: a marketing exec's wet dream

Anthony Fauci, you are a liar because you have known for years that CD4 counts are a travesty of a surrogate marker that, through drug company coercion, have been elevated to the status of "a standard." Now that everyone else knows it too, you and your corporate drug company cronies are urging researchers to foist another useless marker, peripheral blood viral load counts, on our frightened, desperate community. Peripheral blood viral load fluctuates in blood circulation and offers virtually no indication of the health or disease progression in HIV+ people. According to a recent article in the April 1995 issue of Lancet concerning viral replication, "the principle that virus suppression will produce a major clinical benefit must remain an article of faith." Information like that isn't stopping doctors of death like Marcus Conant from insisting that "patients should be treated earlier with combination therapy, and we should be using markers such as PCR and branched DNA to measure viral load as surrogate markers in clinical trials." Your scheme isn't too difficult to figure out; promote another invalid surrogate marker that has no relation to health or life expectancy of PWAs; develop a test that costs $200-$300 to measure this invalid marker; encourage the creation of more deadly drugs that effect this invalid marker; and then compare the pathetic results you get from these deadly drugs to the more pathetic results you got from AZT and other nukes. In the eyes of the government everybody wins. Companies that sell drugs and market tests get rich and PWAs who sacrifice their bodies in your trials of death are eliminated from the face of the earth.

The fact that your clinical trials aren't meant to save our lives is no secret. A December 1994 BETA article "A Remarkable Combination: AZT plus 3TC" reports that the Phase II/III studies of these drugs were "designed to evaluate the effect of the combination on laboratory markers of HIV disease progression, such as viral load and CD4 counts, not critical endpoints, such
as opportunistic infections and survival."

AIDS activists from ACT UP San Francisco and DNCB Now! have been screaming for over a year that HIV+ people need to activate their cell mediated immunity and raise their CD8 counts. These activists were invited to the NIH to present a forum and share their knowledge and experience with researchers. Finally some researchers are coming around and hearing our voices. Doctors like Susan Buchbinder who in the August 1994 issue of AIDS stated that "elevated levels of CD8 cells in healthy long-term HIV+ individuals suggest that these cells play an important role in delaying disease progression."

Because of your 1995 Annual Review of Immunology article we know that you know this, Dr. Fauci, but still you prattle on about those CD4s that tell us nothing at all.

Kramer ends up being incorrect again here, the short bit I've bolded from the "doctor of death" is literally current best practice for HIV treatment: start combination drug therapy immediately when someone tests positive for HIV, and monitor viral load and CD4 count.

CD4 count and viral load are not just marketing schemes; they're the gold standard for assessing an HIV patient's disease progression and any appropriate changes in drug regimen, lifestyle, etc.

The two main goals of antiretroviral therapy are to reach viral suppression (viral load less than 200/mL) and get CD4 counts above 200, 350, or ideally 500.

Viral load is a good measure of how actively the virus is replicating and whether medication is effective. Most patients are able to attain viral suppression in a year or less after starting antiretrovirals. Maintaining viral suppression is important for two reasons: having a viral load <200 per mL means you cannot transmit the disease. This is super important, obviously, and a main goal of treatment. Second, keeping your viral load low is a good way to tell if your specific medications are still effective and the virus isn't developing resistance. If viral load pops back up, that's when you consider switching to a different regimen.

CD4 count is super important for treatment and lifestyle. There are four main ranges of CD4 counts which are used to inform doctors and patients:

>500 per uL = normal range. This is the ideal goal, someone living with HIV that is able to maintain a CD4 above 500 effectively has a normal healthy immune system and doesn't need to take any additional precautions.
350-500 = low end of normal range. Slightly immunocompromised, somewhat more susceptible to illness. Not really a big deal, still good.
200-350 = This is where a patient needs to be more closely monitored for opportunistic infections. They're not common in this range, but the risk becomes higher. The patient is moderately immunocompromised. Lifestyle changes include avoiding some foods and being very careful with food preparation to avoid foodborne illness as patients are more susceptible (no rare meats, stuff like that). Patients need to be careful with wounds and make sure they're well cleaned, bandaged, etc.
<200 = Severely immunocompromised. Some doctors and guidelines will define this as AIDS. Fewer than 200 CD4 cells per uL means you become quite susceptible to opportunistic infections. Patients need to be very careful with food preparation and wounds, can't have cats (toxoplasmosis). Often doctors will prescribe prophylatic antibiotics or other medications to prevent opportunistic infections.

Kramer mentions CD8 count which is not quite as important. CD4 cells are the T-cells that HIV infects and destroys. CD8 cells are routinely measured in blood tests for PLWHIV, but mostly to calculate a CD4/CD8 ratio (%CD4) which is a good indicator of overall immune health.

tl;dr - in Kramer's 1988 letter, he is (very justifiably) angry and mistrustful toward the government about mishandling of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Specifically, he calls out Fauci for hawking antiviral drugs, CD4 and viral load tests. Kramer claims these are only for profit and are useless for helping PLHWIV. It's not really Kramer's fault as knowledge of the disease at that time was very limited, but he ended up being very incorrect on all points and antiretroviral drugs combined with CD4/viral load testing are the cornerstone of modern HIV treatment which allows PLWHIV to live healthy, normal, full-length lives.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 22:43

BiggerBoat: Sep 26, 2007; Can't post for 5 hours!

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

actually I don't remember, did Trump ever get out there and say masks don't work

don't recall that being one of his angles, but I might have been otherwise occupied for a day or two

I recall that he got booed at one of his own rallies for advocating for the vaccines and telling his audience to get them.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 22:44

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

They caught the mass shooter and took her alive in Atlanta.

It was a black woman who owns her own accounting firm and is in her 30's. Which is a very rare demographic mix in just about every category for a mass shooter.

Still no information on motive.

https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1561823151960592385

Edit: CNN says one of the other victims just died, so it is 2 dead and one in critical condition now.

https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1561836055900332033

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:09

Twincityhacker: Feb 18, 2011

Huh, I'm real curious about the motive in this case. I'm not gonna be real surprised if it started with domestic violence.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:14

Crows Turn Off: Jan 7, 2008

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

They caught the mass shooter and took her alive in Atlanta.

It was a black woman who owns her own accounting firm and is in her 30's. Which is a very rare demographic mix in just about every category for a mass shooter.

drat, that is unusual.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:14

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

She apparently successfully escaped the scene after emptying an entire magazine and was caught because she fled to the airport to try and get on a plane, but was stopped by security.

Going through airport security seems like the absolute worst place to go after a mass shooting, but I guess it was a good thing because they probably wouldn't have caught her right away if she didn't.

She also started shooting at a condo in Atlanta, killed someone, went downtown to a large commercial area, shot some more, and then left. Still no clue why those two locations were where she did it.

quote:

Two people have died following multiple shootings in Midtown Atlanta and a female suspect was detained at the airport, police department officials said Monday.

�The female suspect was located at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport and taken into custody without incident,� police said in a tweet.

Another victim who was wounded is hospitalized, police said.

Officers initially responded to a high-rise condominium on West Peachtree Street at about 1:45 p.m. ET to a report of someone hit by gunfire.

quote:

Police officials said it �unclear what led to the shootings,� and they are continuing to piece together �the connection between the locations.�

Police are also working to determine whether the victims were targeted by the suspect or whether any of the victims were shot randomly, officials said.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/22/us/a...l&utm_term=link

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:18

-Blackadder-: Jan 2, 2007; Game....Blouses.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

They caught the mass shooter and took her alive in Atlanta.

It was a black woman who owns her own accounting firm and is in her 30's. Which is a very rare demographic mix in just about every category for a mass shooter.

Still no information on motive.

https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1561823151960592385

Lmao, the entire RWM just nutted on their keyboards. Watching this hit Fox News will be interesting. And the new CNN too.

The Nazi's just found the Ark of the Covenant, let's see what happens when they open it.

In other news Trump's legal team decided to go ahead with their lawsuit requesting a special master, despite the unlikelihood of success.

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1561828140950904832

-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:20

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

-Blackadder- posted:

Lmao, the entire RWM just nutted on their keyboards. Watching this hit Fox News will be interesting. And the new CNN too.

This isn't even the first female mass shooter this month.

It's going to be off the news in a day, just like every other mass shooting, because we have a mass shooting every day.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:22

Cranappleberry: Jan 27, 2009

all Fauci had to say in the beginning was "we do not yet have hard data (that we trust) on what is effective at mitigating the spread of COVID-19, specifically. However, with other SARS diseases in the past, research shows that using certain types of masks >list types here< and distancing have been effective."

But instead he either lied for a dumb reason or else was completely wrong. Either harms his credibility and the credibility of public health institutions, while causing serious harm to public health.

Ditto for the CDC claiming that distancing for kids in schools could go down to 3 feet before the data came in, which then showed they were dead-rear end wrong.

Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 22, 2022

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:23

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

-Blackadder- posted:

Lmao, the entire RWM just nutted on their keyboards. Watching this hit Fox News will be interesting. And the new CNN too.

The Nazi's just found the Ark of the Covenant, let's see what happens when they open it.

This is a really loving weird way to respond to a mass shooting.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:24

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

-Blackadder- posted:

Lmao, the entire RWM just nutted on their keyboards. Watching this hit Fox News will be interesting. And the new CNN too.

The Nazi's just found the Ark of the Covenant, let's see what happens when they open it.

In other news Trump's legal team decided to go ahead with their lawsuit requesting a special master, despite the unlikelihood of success.

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1561828140950904832

Why are you fantasizing like this

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:39

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Barrel Cactaur posted:

Billionaires went in on it because when lipstick manufacturering etc. was declared noncritical they took a hit to profits. Caring little for this they signal boosted the opposition and were very concerned at all their politicians about it. Republicans, having no morals only a desire for power jumped at the chance, because it was an easy dunk with their entitled and selfish base. It took a lot of work to get soft liberals to also give up and jump on it.

Even psudoprogressive billionaires couldn't help but dip and encourage a cash in. They are never actually on your side. https://khn.org/news/rather-than-give-away-its-covid-vaccine-oxford-makes-a-deal-with-drugmaker/amp/

Lipstick factory workers weren't exactly big fans of the lockdowns either, because when their jobs were declared non-essential, they were furloughed or fired.

Portraying lockdown opposition as the exclusive domain of the ultra-rich doesn't really make sense. Lots of people hated lockdowns, at all levels of the socioeconomic ladder.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

She apparently successfully escaped the scene after emptying an entire magazine and was caught because she fled to the airport to try and get on a plane, but was stopped by security.

Going through airport security seems like the absolute worst place to go after a mass shooting, but I guess it was a good thing because they probably wouldn't have caught her right away if she didn't.

She also started shooting at a condo in Atlanta, killed someone, went downtown to a large commercial area, shot some more, and then left. Still no clue why those two locations were where she did it.

Interesting - you don't usually hear about mass shooters trying to escape arrest, especially not to the point of trying to flee the country afterward.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:49

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Main Paineframe posted:

Portraying lockdown opposition as the exclusive domain of the ultra-rich doesn't really make sense. Lots of people hated lockdowns, at all levels of the socioeconomic ladder.

quote:

because when their jobs were declared non-essential, they were furloughed or fired.

I wonder if there is an overarching economical reason fo-

It�s because of capital.

That�s why.

Capital.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:58

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Lockdown was really lovely for anyone with elementary aged kids.

# ? Aug 22, 2022 23:59

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Main Paineframe posted:

Interesting - you don't usually hear about mass shooters trying to escape arrest, especially not to the point of trying to flee the country afterward.

i wouldn't really call her a mass shooter, more like she had some specific people she had specific problems with. based on a linkedin post from someone alleged to be the shooter, they whistleblew on an claimed ethical violation from their former employer (whose office is located at one shooting location) and claim retaliation by being fired. this person also claims that the condo board (which is at the other shooting location) colluded with the former employer to allow people into the alleged shooter's condo to delete and destroy evidence of the financial crime. the alleged shooter posted multiple videos on linkedin of them talking to atlanta beat cops who were uncooperative in assisting the shooter with these claimed financial crimes and break-ins. so its looking very much like the alleged shooter wanted someone in the condo management office dead, and wanted someone at her former place of employment dead

given that multiple people get shot in atlanta all the time, i'm wondering why this shooting made national news. i'm guessing it is because of the brief social media "don't go here, active shooter" lockdown alert from the police, as normally shootings don't make it on social media as they happen

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:04

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Bar Ran Dun posted:

Lockdown was really lovely for anyone with elementary aged kids.

Getting covid is also really lovely for elementary aged kids, what's your point.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:09

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

trump's motion to appoint a special master is laughably bad, so bad I would suspect it was bad on purpose so it would lose for PR reasons except his attorneys really are that bad

I can barely figure out what their argument even is

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:09

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

CNN says that Biden is going to announce $10,000 in student loan debt forgiveness as a baseline, with additional forgiveness above $10,000 "for specific subsets of the population."

No info on what those subsets will be or how much extra money it will be.

Plan is to announce it on Wednesday in conjunction with an announcement about the student loan pause, but they say "11th hour changes or rescheduling could still happen."

The only requirements will be an income cap of $125k for single people and $250k for people filing jointly.

https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1561851347900710920

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:15

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

Fritz the Horse posted:

Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I don't have an intimate knowledge of HIV/AIDS treatment, but strongly suspected that in his righteous fury, the angry playwright was making up bullshit about medical science.

virtualboyCOLOR posted:

I wonder if there is an overarching economical reason fo-

It�s because of capital.

That�s why.

Capital.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hYrNsRoTs

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:17

Fritz the Horse: Dec 26, 2019; ... of course!

silence_kit posted:

Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I don't have an intimate knowledge of HIV/AIDS treatment, but strongly suspected that in his righteous fury, the angry playwright was making up bullshit about medical science.

I don't think Kramer was making stuff up. He had very good reasons to be hostile and mistrusting of the government, and his criticisms of Fauci were reasonable in the moment. It's just that in hindsight, the things Kramer's letter accuses Fauci of doing purely for profit (that wouldn't help and might even hurt patients) would turn out to actually be the gold standard for life-saving HIV treatment a decade later.

His criticisms were reasonable in the moment but aren't really valid after we figured out HIV treatment.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:24

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

CNN says that Biden is going to announce $10,000 in student loan debt forgiveness as a baseline, with additional forgiveness above $10,000 "for specific subsets of the population."

No info on what those subsets will be or how much extra money it will be.

Plan is to announce it on Wednesday in conjunction with an announcement about the student loan pause, but they say "11th hour changes or rescheduling could still happen."

The only requirements will be an income cap of $125k for single people and $250k for people filing jointly.

https://twitter.com/cnnbrk/status/1561851347900710920

Oh my god they just can't help themselves, can they. There's always got to be some fiddly means testing bullshit that's going to disqualify a bunch of people. They can never just say "everyone gets 10k loan forgiveness, on us, the Dems." there's got to be some requirement to produce x years of tax returns etc, and you have to apply for the relief through this dodgy IRS portal and send in these forms to this one guy who's in charge, and there's additional help if you received a tax credit of no more than x amount in the fiscal period ending not bef-

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:29

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

some plague rats posted:

Oh my god they just can't help themselves, can they. There's always got to be some fiddly means testing bullshit that's going to disqualify a bunch of people. They can never just say "everyone gets 10k loan forgiveness, on us, the Dems." there's got to be some requirement to produce x years of tax returns etc, and you have to apply for the relief through this dodgy IRS portal and send in these forms to this one guy who's in charge, and there's additional help if you received a tax credit of no more than x amount in the fiscal period ending not bef-

They previously said that if you have filed taxes in 2021, then they likely can forgive it automatically.

For people who have never filed taxes, they have to go online and just sign an agreement saying they "affirm" that they made less than $125k.

I have no idea (and CNN doesn't provide any information) on what the extra forgiveness for "certain subgroups" is, how you qualify, and if/how you have to prove it, though.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:33

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

They previously said that if you have filed taxes in 2021, then they likely can forgive it automatically.

For people who have never filed taxes, they have to go online and just sign an agreement saying they "affirm" that they made less than $125k.

I have no idea (and CNN doesn't provide any information) on what the "bonus" extra forgiveness for certain subgroup is, how you qualify, and if/how you have to prove it, though.

They can "likely" forgive it automatically? How are we rating the odds of that remaining true, especially with a president who's on the record as not wanting to forgive "too much" student loan debt- remember when they were pushing for 50k forgiveness and he shut it down flat?

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:37

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

some plague rats posted:

Oh my god they just can't help themselves, can they. There's always got to be some fiddly means testing bullshit that's going to disqualify a bunch of people. They can never just say "everyone gets 10k loan forgiveness, on us, the Dems." there's got to be some requirement to produce x years of tax returns etc, and you have to apply for the relief through this dodgy IRS portal and send in these forms to this one guy who's in charge, and there's additional help if you received a tax credit of no more than x amount in the fiscal period ending not bef-

Even self-proclaimed leftists who proclaim they are against means testing hate when they think the wealthy are benefiting from a handout and they're not. We had that happen in this thread when someone (incorrectly) thought the child tax credit was not means-tested. Giving money to wealthy people and not to other people (for example: poor people who didn't go to college) is insanely unpopular and it would be political malpractice to do it.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:37

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

evilweasel posted:

Even self-proclaimed leftists who proclaim they are against means testing hate when they think the wealthy are benefiting from a handout and they're not. We had that happen in this thread when someone (incorrectly) thought the child tax credit was not means-tested. Giving money to wealthy people and not to other people (for example: poor people who didn't go to college) is insanely unpopular and it would be political malpractice to do it.

Do you think this? I'll argue with you and other people posting here who disagree with me. I'm not going to argue against the beliefs of "self-proclaimed leftists" who exist in your head.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:39

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

some plague rats posted:

Do you think this? I'll argue with you and other people posting here who disagree with me. I'm not going to argue against the beliefs of "self-proclaimed leftists" who exist in your head.

I do. Everyone in the last 15 years who takes out federal student loan debt can get on ibr/paye. The people who aren't on that (and who aren't defaulted) are going to be high earners. So it would be absurd to forgive 10k for biglaw attorneys but effectively 0 for everyone who can't even touch their principal balance (as their monthly payments won't change once those resume)
Of course, anyone with private debt gets nothing, just like they haven't had years of paused payments either (which effectively forgave 5-10k from those who are on ibr/paye and will eventually get forgiveness).

I'm against the debt forgiveness in general but at least capping it to this amount helps. I'd like it capped lower so that any biglaw attorneys with a nonworking spouse can't benefit (so 180k or so for married filing jointly) but it's not the end of the world

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:41

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

some plague rats posted:

They can "likely" forgive it automatically? How are we rating the odds of that remaining true, especially with a president who's on the record as not wanting to forgive "too much" student loan debt- remember when they were pushing for 50k forgiveness and he shut it down flat?

If you filed taxes in 2021, the DOE has your income information, or you filed a FAFSA application in the last year, then they can forgive it automatically.

quote:

The documents sketch out the mechanics of how the agency expects to manage and operate a possible mass debt cancellation program on a scale that would be unprecedented in the history of the federal student loan program � if the White House were to give it the green light.

Education Department officials, the documents show, are prepared to provide debt relief automatically, within several months, to several million borrowers for whom the agency already has income information.

quote:

�Internal discussions have resolved most key operational and policy issues necessary for speedy implementation� of a broad-based student debt cancellation program, the memo prepared for Cardona says, �potentially allowing immediate eligibility determination for millions of borrowers, the first cancellations within 45 days of announcement and millions of cancellations within 90 days.�

If they don't have any of that info, then you go online a self-certify that you qualify and get it forgiven.

quote:

other borrowers would apply through a form on StudentAid.gov by self-certifying they qualify for relief.

It seems like "received a Pell grant at any time during college" and "qualified for any need-based financial aid" are going to be some of the "specific subsets" that get extra forgiveness:

quote:

The department�s plan contemplates that all types of federal student loans would be eligible for loan forgiveness, including Grad and Parent PLUS loans as well as federal loans owned by private entities. And it also suggests that borrowers who ever received a Pell grant, financial assistance for low-income families, could receive an additional amount of loan forgiveness.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/28/cancel-student-loans-education-department-00048365

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:42

Zoph: Sep 12, 2005

If they can forgive 10k they can forgive all of it, and everyone's attention will turn to that fact forever onward.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:42

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 05:18

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

some plague rats posted:

Do you think this? I'll argue with you and other people posting here who disagree with me. I'm not going to argue against the beliefs of "self-proclaimed leftists" who exist in your head.

I use it as an example because the claim is it is politically bad to means-test and the very people claiming that turning around and getting mad at it is very good evidence the political claim is wrong. I was very clear on my view: it would be political malpractice not to means test handing out $10k when many people will not get it (again, because they didn't even go to college).

# ? Aug 23, 2022 00:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE Summer 2022: You can't change the crisis settings.

«‹›279 »