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jesus christunwantedplatypus posted:One glaring issue of modern feminism is that there are a ton of women who actively hold and reinforce misogynistic beliefs, and the only response to that is to say they have internalized misogyny and are just brainwashed by patriarchy. Okay, so it seems like what you're saying is that some men are listening to feminists who say "Just be a good person! Handle your own emotional needs and try to be your best self! Also you don't have to pay for the woman's meal, it's 2022, go splitsies. The only women who will be against you on this have been brainwashed by patriarchy." Then they go out in the real world and meet the brainwashed-by-patriarchy women who call them a pussy for not being 6'2, yell at them for not paying for meals, expect them to fulfill a traditionally masculine social role, etc. Feminism should have better prepared them for this reality. Feminism has failed them because these men have a basic need to connect with women, and most women do not hold actual gender-egalitarian views and will disapprove of men who do. Am I mischaracterizing this?
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Aug 22, 2022 20:38
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Shiroc posted:You accused me of being a domestic abuser before you edited it to add the extra line, gently caress yourself. That's over the goddamn line. "When did you stop beating your wife?" is a famous phrase demonstrating the concept of an accusatory question there is no good answer to.
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Aug 22, 2022 20:38
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Tjadeth posted:Am I mischaracterizing this? Yes
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Aug 22, 2022 20:39
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No one in the thread has any idea what you claim you were actually trying to say, you threw up trans men to deflect, you throw a poo poo accusation to claim its a rhetorical point. gently caress off out of here.
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Aug 22, 2022 20:42
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In truth getting dogpiled and having multiple people try and read everything you post to morally indict makes it hard to have a consistent point. I had a point I intended to talk about, originally. But because I talked about lonely men, oooh that's an incel-adjacent topic. You must be an incel. You must like incels. And its just an endless series of this sort of interaction until you're not really talking about what you were talking about earlier. Why were trans men mentioned? Because I mentioned them in one sentence, talking about something I'd heard from my own experiences. This spawned accusations that I was cynically using them to score points. Accusations that I'm using them as a shield for cis men.
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Aug 22, 2022 20:43
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Shiroc posted:gently caress off out of here. No
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Aug 22, 2022 20:44
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Modern feminism sucks in a lot of ways, it’s entirely class agnostic, co-opted by corporations and dem politics, conflates taking catty “you go girl!” shots at men for actual liberation, etc we got here exactly because capital was fine with detonating the patriarchy as it was if more surplus value could be squeezed out. talking about things in terms of personal virtue is almost always a shorthand for accepting capitalist realism people need roles more than 'labor' or 'labor with the burden of social reproduction' or 'totally unaccountable lordling'. those edgelords are gusanos complaining about how castro stole their grandparent's farms, whining about how they should have a slave like grandpappy, but is this really surprising when we still allow for that third category, explicitly, as something to aspire to?
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Aug 22, 2022 20:47
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Slowly taking off my hat that says "I love posting" as I go down the page
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Aug 22, 2022 20:58
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YOLOsubmarine posted:My experience with incels and MRAs is that they hate women and think they should be sexual chattel and talk often about how sluts deserve to be raped. They complain about how women only date assholes but they’re just mad that they’re dating OTHER assholes and not them. ok what about the phenotypical incel who just gives up on dating without identifying as an InCel MRA or MGTOW?
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Aug 22, 2022 21:02
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This thread, and feminism as a whole, has taught me that being a gay man was the correct choice and/or compulsion in my life
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Aug 22, 2022 21:02
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I really don't want to join this conversation per se but "when did you stop beating your wife" is a famous example of a loaded question in that it is impossible to answer without admitting that one has beaten one's wife, and almost definitely not an accusation in context of ITT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
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Aug 22, 2022 21:05
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loquacius posted:I really don't want to join this conversation per se but "when did you stop beating your wife" is a famous example of a loaded question in that it is impossible to answer without admitting that one has beaten one's wife, and almost definitely not an accusation in context of ITT are you sure
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Aug 22, 2022 21:07
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unwantedplatypus posted:"When did you stop beating your wife?" is a famous phrase demonstrating the concept of an accusatory question there is no good answer to. Ash Crimson posted:are you sure
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Aug 22, 2022 21:08
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Ash Crimson posted:are you sure Yeah Being meant in earnest would be a huge coincidence (the wording is exactly the same as in the rhetorical usage), a huge non sequitur, and also require the poster to be lying Occam's razor is pretty clear on this one
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Aug 22, 2022 21:11
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Like, my wikipedia link wasn't meant to be condescending, I was trying to illustrate that "have you stopped beating your wife" is verbatim in its opening paragraph. I'd have screenshotted but I'm phoneposting
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Aug 22, 2022 21:12
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loquacius posted:Yeah nerrrrrrrrrrd
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Aug 22, 2022 21:13
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She originally posted it without the second line and in the middle of an argument. I don't really loving care if they were referencing it because it also makes no sense with that usage. She was using trans men in the argument. Asking why she did so is not an unanswerable question that burdens the person being asked unless she was in fact throwing them out pointlessly or in bad faith. e: Edited to fix pronouns Shiroc has issued a correction as of 21:26 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 21:15
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edit: thank you
unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 21:28 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 21:20
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unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 21:28 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 21:21
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Shiroc has issued a correction as of 23:35 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 21:22
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Brain Candy posted:we got here exactly because capital was fine with detonating the patriarchy as it was if more surplus value could be squeezed out. talking about things in terms of personal virtue is almost always a shorthand for accepting capitalist realism Good post.
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Aug 22, 2022 21:34
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Control Volume posted:This thread, and feminism as a whole, has taught me that being a gay man was the correct choice and/or compulsion in my life Shiroc posted:My closest trans guy friend is living his best life deeply involved in gay male spaces to the point where I'm honestly surprised how little friction he experiences Feminism: dudes rock
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Aug 22, 2022 21:35
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actually on a related note, what's a good source on the history "women in the workplace" because lots of people seem to think it was invented in the middle or early 20th century but Marx is already talking about it in 1848 and ofc in premodern agrarian economy women were heavily involved in subsistence farming and cottage industry (though how far they could go with it waxed and waned)
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Aug 22, 2022 22:09
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StashAugustine posted:actually on a related note, what's a good source on the history "women in the workplace" because lots of people seem to think it was invented in the middle or early 20th century but Marx is already talking about it in 1848 and ofc in premodern agrarian economy women were heavily involved in subsistence farming and cottage industry (though how far they could go with it waxed and waned) On the Origin of the Family and Private Property by Engels is the de facto starting point, it's a text I wish every self described Feminist had read. E. Pairs well with Debt the First 5,000 Years and Caliban and the Witch and Women Race and Class War and Pieces has issued a correction as of 22:57 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 22:11
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At the end of a podcast I listened to (I forget which one because I listened to two with her on the same day), Jules Gil-Peterson talked about how the histories of trans women and trans men don't have the same historical overlaps due to how they related to capitalism (American/Western perspective and I think she might have been talking from like the 1800s on, so not inclusive of all culture, etc). A lot of trans men would go out into less populated places since being men gave them significantly more economic opportunity and freedom of movement. The independence also separated them from forming communities since they had more ability to just fade into society. Trans women were sacrificing all of that status and ended up clustering together in cities to support each other. That's also a lot of the trans woman and sex work connection happened since it was the only work available. Trans men have unique tensions, due to masculinity being strongly, strongly favored in the current system. There is potentially significant economic power and privilege to be gained, though obviously that is always at risk if people turn on them for 'not really being men.' A modified form is the tension with the older 2nd Wave feminists. A trans man is viewed as either rejecting femininity or, potentially more threateningly, that they throw complication into the system that shows biological essentialism isn't real otherwise a person couldn't 'opt in' to a higher status level. Lean In Feminists panicking because they think a trans man just leaned in too far. Everyone treats trans women as suspect because femininity is devalued by society, certain strains of feminism treat at a special burden that women must carry and taking the steps to affirmatively declare yourself as a woman is reducing your economic power. Clearly, the transphobe thinks, there must be some con going on here. Most of the anti-trans hate is still directed towards trans women, but the rhetoric getting bad into 'we must secure the domestic baby supply' is turning more focus onto trans men. Given the declining material conditions, I assume that this is at least in part to close off the economic opportunities that become available after transition. This is all kind of half formed but if we're going to talk about trans men in the leftist forum's feminism thread, let's actually have a discussion. StashAugustine posted:actually on a related note, what's a good source on the history "women in the workplace" because lots of people seem to think it was invented in the middle or early 20th century but Marx is already talking about it in 1848 and ofc in premodern agrarian economy women were heavily involved in subsistence farming and cottage industry (though how far they could go with it waxed and waned) Seconding Caliban and the Witch. Women, Race And Class from Angela Davis is probably focused later than you're interested in but she has some interesting points about the labor of black women in it.
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Aug 22, 2022 22:28
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henkman posted:Feminism: dudes rock Provided they do not stretch in public
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Aug 22, 2022 22:29
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Shiroc posted:
I've read Caliban and it's cool and interesting but IIRC more about the early modern and the crushing of the limited independence women had in medieval agrarianism. In the question I had I'm more interested in early industrial wage labor- how involved women were in that and how it's remembered differently. I'm gonna put some money on "stay at home mothers were a brief petty bourg/labor aristocrat affectation" but I don't have anything to back that up
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Aug 22, 2022 22:38
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Does anyone want to come squat with me in this alleyway besides tescos and read some germaine greer
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Aug 22, 2022 23:18
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Ash Crimson posted:Does anyone want to come squat with me in this alleyway besides tescos and read some germaine greer gross, a british. someone get the broom
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Aug 22, 2022 23:23
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StashAugustine posted:I've read Caliban and it's cool and interesting but IIRC more about the early modern and the crushing of the limited independence women had in medieval agrarianism. In the question I had I'm more interested in early industrial wage labor- how involved women were in that and how it's remembered differently. I'm gonna put some money on "stay at home mothers were a brief petty bourg/labor aristocrat affectation" but I don't have anything to back that up i read engel's 'the origin of family' so long ago it's mostly faded from my memory, but a passage that has always stuck with me is when he describes a woman employed in cottage industry staying up late into the night weaving while rocking her crying baby in a low crib with her feet. the baby was hungry, but if she stopped to feed them wouldn't have enough time left to make enough pieces to pay for food and lodging, so all she could do was rock them while they cried for hours.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:28
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Where's a good place to start with trans inclusive feminism? I am kinda mentally destitute when it comes to feminist theory. I've picked up some stuff through osmosis in some social circles up here + online communities and video essays from people I don't really trust on the subject, so just kinda not good. I'd like a decent foundation if an entry point can be recommended.
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Aug 23, 2022 00:10
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Its getting old but I think that Whipping Girl is still good.
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Aug 23, 2022 00:18
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Riot Bimbo posted:Where's a good place to start with trans inclusive feminism? I am kinda mentally destitute when it comes to feminist theory. I've picked up some stuff through osmosis in some social circles up here + online communities and video essays from people I don't really trust on the subject, so just kinda not good. I'd like a decent foundation if an entry point can be recommended. Just don't be an rear end in a top hat, it's that easy, no one becomes a better person by reading book
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Aug 23, 2022 00:58
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i like thinking about things and like being able to riff on other people's done work when i can be bothered/interested enough to do so like i don't enjoy reinventing wheels really like my transition has in part already been one of letting go of bad social programming and integrating newer healthier outlooks, i'm probably further along than most on the "don't be a dick" front, like four years into that journey now, but reading is good. Shiroc posted:Its getting old but I think that Whipping Girl is still good. I've already consumed a chunk of Whipping Girl, I reckon I can finish it.
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Aug 23, 2022 01:02
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Any feminism you're doing is automatically trans feminism, congratulations
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Aug 23, 2022 01:07
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Transgender Marxism was nice to read because it talked a lot about trying to build new ways of being and relating with each other. Histories of the Transgender Child is really good, even if it isn't necessarily a feminist text. It talks a lot about how trans people worked with and against the developing medical establishment in order to secure transition related care. I like Jules-Gill Peterson's writing generally. She posts on substack occasionally https://sadbrowngirl.substack.com/ and puts out other pieces at various places.
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Aug 23, 2022 01:11
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some plague rats posted:Just don't be an rear end in a top hat, it's that easy, no one becomes a better person by reading book this is autism erasure
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Aug 23, 2022 01:31
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False. Reading has only made me worse
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Aug 23, 2022 01:42
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*clears throat* Anita Sarkeesian
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Aug 23, 2022 01:55
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loquacius posted:I really don't want to join this conversation per se but "when did you stop beating your wife" is a famous example of a loaded question in that it is impossible to answer without admitting that one has beaten one's wife, and almost definitely not an accusation in context of ITT hey everybody look at this rear end in a top hat hes mansplaining
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Aug 23, 2022 05:08
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