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Dirk Pitt posted:It is strange to have S carrying SD's flag. S has lost a lot of voters to SD, it is not surprising that they're doing lots of trial balloons the last weeks before the election about just how close they can get to courting them back without going full racism. Disappointing, yes, but not surprising.
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Aug 23, 2022 08:29
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lilljonas posted:S has lost a lot of voters to SD, it is not surprising that they're doing lots of trial balloons the last weeks before the election about just how close they can get to courting them back without going full racism. My “I’m working class and I vote S goddamnit” partner is floored as to how many of his colleagues jumped to SD, and how anemic S has been the past years. He even admitted to me that he might not even vote this time around. I might try and needle him a bit to do it with me, as it’s my first time voting (in this country, anyhow), but it’s a shame seeing his disillusionment. What cracks me up is that he’s upset that S has gone too far right, but won’t vote for V. But he’s a white Swedish welder in his late 40s who has been loyal to the soil S since he could vote, I am over the moon he’s not the livets hårda skola-typ.
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Aug 23, 2022 08:39
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Well that blew up  TheFluff posted:Are you being dense on purpose or have you just been living under a rock since the last election? The big political hot potato with private schools isn't the fact that they exist, it's the financing model and the perverse incentives. Last time I checked the polls, there was a 2/3rds majority against vinster i välfärden, and it was trending upwards, even among right-wing voters. You are verging close to the no-no in this thread, which are straight up insults, which gets a sixer. (Veiled insults are ok, so be creative). But to the actual question, I did say that the financing model is bonkers, so we agree on that. Better regulation of private schools are sorely needed. Private schools provide an outlet for those that cares enough for their children to place them in a good school. Grades is a minor part of this compared to having order and classmates with the same ambition. If one take Lund as an example, there is a massive influx of students to Lund due to having excellent communal schools, and that brings a certain selection of who can get in. Communal schools need to accommodate all students, which is bad given the current financing system and they also end up getting those students where the parents doesn't care about school with the obvious results. So if you put a lot of students from homes where the parents are not educated, you are going to get bad schools that those parents who care will avoid. Abolishing private schools are not going to solve this, what will happen is that people will select communes based on schools and you get the same selection. This process is already happening in the surroundings of Malmö since 10-15 years and it doesn't resolve any segregation. anatomi posted:You claimed we have unprecedented immigration. We don't. That was in 2016 as a result of the record number of asylum seekers in 2015. So a million immigrants to a country over a time period of 20 years is nothing? I haven't seen many refugees from the Kongo civil war..... anatomi posted:I can't find this BRÅ maths book for racist toddlers. Kindly source it. If you don't know what it is, you have some very basic catching up to do.
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Aug 23, 2022 08:42
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It makes sense when you sit down and accept that the general public has a low to mediocre political litteracy to begin with. Whenever SD voters are polled for actual ideological questions, a large chunk of them are clearly against the stated political goals of both M, KD and to a certain degree L. So yes, Svenne banan might get his wish that immigrants are treated harsher if M-KD-Sd-L win the election. But they are oblivious, or actively choose to ignore, that the other parties in return will barter to enact policies that are direct opposite to what many Sd voters declare that they want. To me it is baffling to see how you can sacrifice all your other political ideals on the alter of making life harder for brown people, but then, many voters don't think about how things will actually turn out when the parties start to haggle with each other. And it is so incredibly obvious that Jimmie will be ready to sell out every single molecule of their party programme that Ulf doesn't like in exchange for a carte blanche for implementing the worst possible immigration-related policies.
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Aug 23, 2022 08:50
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Cardiac posted:
This is a very dishonest remark. You said that we currently have an unprecedented level of immigration now, a common talking point from the right of why a sudden halt to all immigration is necessary. It was pointed out in the thread that you are wrong, and that immigration has actually decreased since a peak in 2015-16, half a decade ago. Then you turn it into a smug "oh you say immigration is zero now?". This is strawmanning bullshit. Be better.
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Aug 23, 2022 08:55
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Beeswax posted:Oh come on I am normalizing for Svensk diskurs, of course.
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Aug 23, 2022 09:40
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Rappaport posted:I am normalizing for Svensk diskurs, of course. Stram tråd
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Aug 23, 2022 10:08
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Gutta say, "public school is for parents that dosent care about their children" is certainly a take.
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Aug 23, 2022 10:22
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The average voter doesn't know politics very well but I think they can clue in that S aren't really working for them anymore and that things are wrong, even if they don't know what is wrong and get it completely rear end to front about where to put the blame. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 10:38
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Cardiac posted:But to the actual question, I did say that the financing model is bonkers, so we agree on that. Better regulation of private schools are sorely needed. Exactly, most of the voter base agrees, so I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue at this point? I pointed out that specifically when it comes to these questions of financing and regulation, the opposition is at odds with a large majority of the voter base. In response you said that private schools aren't going away, which to me is almost a non-sequitur. I mean, yeah, just like a lot of other thread regulars I'm opposed to private schools in general, but that's entirely unrelated to the opposition doing poorly in the polls. I don't think Svenonius et al is as local an issue as you seem to think either, BTW. It's had more impact in Stockholm specifically, sure, but people complain a lot about Stockholm local news being disproportionally represented in national news for a reason.
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Aug 23, 2022 10:42
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Alhazred posted:Gutta say, "public school is for parents that dosent care about their children" is certainly a take. as the quality of public schools deteriorates, this becomes increasingly true. if the only decent schools which will give your kid a better start in life is a fee-paying school, it becomes very much a worthwhile investment for individual parents who can even begin to afford it. this is why we don't want a free market in education, it makes everything worse for almost everyone. His Divine Shadow posted:The average voter doesn't know politics very well but I think they can clue in that S aren't really working for them anymore and that things are wrong, even if they don't know what is wrong and get it completely rear end to front about where to put the blame. the average voter has a weird and convoluted ideological justification for voting in their own interests. this means that when parties insist on talking about "values" and "good solutions" etc it almost inevitably fails, because people vote for interests, not for values, despite claiming the opposite. so when S stops representing their interests, a lot of people will simply conclude that the reason SD gets so much stick is because they'd *actually* represent their values and are dangerous competition and why not give them a chance? they've got a different story than the people who failed and people seem to take them seriously etc. the V people are utopian nerds who represent academics and public employees anyway, i just wanna grill. etc etc etc V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 10:52
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TheFluff posted:
Swedish media reports on Stockholm local politics as if it is of interest for everyone in Sweden, while they generally don't report on local politics from the rest of the country. So Svenonius loving up Stockholm repeatedly has definitely been more visible than any other local gently caress-up would be. My own best example of this was a news reporter let off the freudian slip that Sweden's borders were closed off by the police when, in fact, it was they had put up check-points around central Stockholm after the terrorist attack in 2017.
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Aug 23, 2022 11:09
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Cardiac posted:Well that blew up Or do you think that d&d should be overrun by fyad or c-spam? Just some thoughts (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 23, 2022 11:16
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only non-scandinavians should be allowed to post here imo
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Aug 23, 2022 11:20
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Alhazred posted:Gutta say, "public school is for parents that dosent care about their children" is certainly a take. It's not that we don't care about our kids, it's that it's a loving expensive time consuming hazzle to have kids at non local schools coupled with some parents who are either oblivious or careless about the schools they are sending their kids to as long as their kid stays out of trouble (which will be statistically harder in those schools). Thus I along with many of the parents of other kids are sceptical of keeping our kids in the local schools where knifings and death threats have occurred and where the local gang recruits and hangs out at after school.
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Aug 23, 2022 11:37
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I thought this was more an Eastern Europe and Baltics phenomenon (Canada gets an honorable mention), but no, Denmark indeed has a nazi memorial monument, too. Put up in 1971. https://nyheder.tv2.dk/lokalt/2022-08-23-viceborgmester-vil-fjerne-omdiskuteret-mindesten 
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Aug 23, 2022 13:08
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V. Illych L. posted:as the quality of public schools deteriorates, this becomes increasingly true. if the only decent schools which will give your kid a better start in life is a fee-paying school, it becomes very much a worthwhile investment for individual parents who can even begin to afford it. this is why we don't want a free market in education, it makes everything worse for almost everyone.
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Aug 23, 2022 14:44
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SplitSoul posted:I thought this was more an Eastern Europe and Baltics phenomenon (Canada gets an honorable mention), but no, Denmark indeed has a nazi memorial monument, too. Put up in 1971. They should definitely deface the monument and build one to the victims of Danish Nazis out of it though.
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Aug 23, 2022 14:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I feel like people might assume it was a memorial to Danes who didn't betray their country and humanity. Obviously not if you give it a think, but just at first glance. They should have taken it a step further and written "in memory of 4000 Danes who were killed by anti-fascists"
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Aug 23, 2022 15:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:They should definitely deface the monument and build one to the victims of Danish Nazis out of it though. It has been, repeatedly. I feel like this wouldn't have been an issue in 2022 if we'd just executed everyone who returned, and also every member of the party. Would've prevented the whole Simon Spies thing, too.
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Aug 23, 2022 15:05
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Andrast posted:only non-scandinavians should be allowed to post here imo Canadian living on Amager ok?
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Aug 23, 2022 15:14
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Rust Martialis posted:Canadian living on Amager ok? https://i.imgur.com/tyVBpSz.mp4
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Aug 23, 2022 15:31
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SplitSoul posted:It has been, repeatedly. SplitSoul posted:I feel like this wouldn't have been an issue in 2022 if we'd just executed everyone who returned, and also every member of the party. Would've prevented the whole Simon Spies thing, too.
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Aug 23, 2022 15:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Look here, every Dane was an active resistance members since 1939! No no, don't look at that archive of 22,795 active DNSAP members from 1945. 
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Aug 23, 2022 16:18
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SplitSoul posted:No no, don't look at that archive of 22,795 active DNSAP members from 1945.
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Aug 23, 2022 16:23
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As a working teacher who has been employed both in public and private schools in Sweden i'll chip in. The short of it is that there is basically no serious research that indicate that free choice lowers segregation. Some people, including in this thread, make it seem as if this is mostly a product of parental negligence. This although there is next to nothing in terms of research pointing in that direction. The convenient leaving out of queue times, and socioeconomically previlaged families compensating for a lack of teacher density in private chools all contribute to that illusion. Not only is this thesis not supported by evidence in Sweden, similar patterns of school choice coupled with shady financing fueling segregation is a well observed fact in the immidiate post Jim Crow south in the USA. There are also boatloads of examples of school choice having a very close correlation with socioeconomic factors like income and parental education. This although most of it concludes that it is material conditions that inform why the choices are made. A good example is in the USA distance and residence plays the biggest factor, while in Amestardam with its excellent public transportation this is less of a cause. Eitherway the scientific community is basically unanimous in it's opinion that school choice is a driving factor in segregation, and that segregation is a driving factor in declining results. Alot of our "recovery" in bullshit surveys like PISA can be explained by grade inflation in private schools. The causal relationship is very hard to establish with any one or two factors in general. What is irrefutable is the highly disruptive societal consequences of the "free choice". This is what gives rise to the islamist schools and right wing sociopath factories. TL;DR Starve out the private schools by taxing their profits and underfinancing them. Then phase out the choice or atleast heavily restrict it Also abolish queues. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 18:40
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:As a working teacher who has been employed both in public and private schools in Sweden i'll chip in. I'm at least very aware that it does not lower segregation, it's more a way out of bad school districts for those that have the time, money and will to do it (realistically middle-class). Without it I'm pretty sure my "utsatta område" would become even more unattractive for new middle class families because then they would be forced to send their kids to one of the aforementioned lovely schools, and segregation would not improve either. quote:There are also boatloads of examples of school choice having a very close correlation with socioeconomic factors like income and parental education. This although most of it concludes that it is material conditions that inform why the choices are made. A good example is in the USA distance and residence plays the biggest factor, while in Amestardam with its excellent public transportation this is less of a cause. I would say that it is the exact same thing in Swedish miljonprogram areas, they are often placed a bit off from the "main" city population centers which makes it harder to commute to a different school district. Which is why I'm currently in favor of bussing kids around to force integration and break up the self-reinforcing status of bad neighborhoods. quote:Eitherway the scientific community is basically unanimous in it's opinion that school choice is a driving factor in segregation, and that segregation is a driving factor in declining results. Alot of our "recovery" in bullshit surveys like PISA can be explained by grade inflation in private schools. The causal relationship is very hard to establish with any one or two factors in general. What is irrefutable is the highly disruptive societal consequences of the "free choice". This is what gives rise to the islamist schools and right wing sociopath factories. That would be lovely in the long term yes.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:30
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https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/magdalena-andersson-stanger-dorren-for-v-i-regering wtf is this garbage, never trust a folkpartist really looking forward to months of wrangling while nobody can form a cabinet
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Aug 23, 2022 20:31
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Love how culture-war is still the hot potato of the election cycle when it was just revealed that party members across the political spectrum are more than willing to discuss anonymous donations.
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Aug 24, 2022 01:21
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TheFluff posted:https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/magdalena-andersson-stanger-dorren-for-v-i-regering All this really shows is that if you were going to vote V then you should 100% vote V. Do not help vote to try and save MP, if S is not willing to include V then S should save MP themselves. They are after all the ones who need MP the most.
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Aug 24, 2022 03:13
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V. Illych L. posted:the average voter has a weird and convoluted ideological justification for voting in their own interests. this means that when parties insist on talking about "values" and "good solutions" etc it almost inevitably fails, because people vote for interests, not for values, despite claiming the opposite. so when S stops representing their interests, a lot of people will simply conclude that the reason SD gets so much stick is because they'd *actually* represent their values and are dangerous competition and why not give them a chance? they've got a different story than the people who failed and people seem to take them seriously etc. the V people are utopian nerds who represent academics and public employees anyway, i just wanna grill. etc etc etc Dadgostar has come out with some policy suggestions that have gotten the approval of people not very leftist recently though, such as her idea to prioritize swedish electricity consumers over german ones. Export limitations. I think that kind of stuff hits home with a lot of people. More in that left-populist vein is needed, get the people easy scape goats (big corporations, free trade and market worship) and a convincing narrative as to how it'd be in their interests to vote for them. Agree on this values stuff, people don't vote for values, they vote for what they see as their interest. V's biggest problems are being seen as hostile to people outside cities and being for academics instead of workers. V also seems to be anti-nuclear on a party level which is a big problem IMO. M seems to be going in on being pro-nuclear right now since that seems to be all they got that might interest people to vote for them. I doubt they can deliver on their promises though since they'd just free market gently caress it up somehow instead of just having the state run things.
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Aug 24, 2022 08:20
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His Divine Shadow posted:Dadgostar has come out with some policy suggestions that have gotten the approval of people not very leftist recently though, such as her idea to prioritize swedish electricity consumers over german ones. Export limitations. I think that kind of stuff hits home with a lot of people. More in that left-populist vein is needed, get the people easy scape goats (big corporations, free trade and market worship) and a convincing narrative as to how it'd be in their interests to vote for them. Agree on this values stuff, people don't vote for values, they vote for what they see as their interest. My only dislike of Vänster is that they are opposed to nuclear power at a fundamental level. I’ll still vote for them because gently caress everyone else. I saw that Andersson said she supports nuclear power but only if private companies lead the investment. This position from a ‘red’ minister makes no sense to me. I think energy production should be the purview of the state. I guess I am unsure if Vattenfall counts as private in this instance?
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Aug 24, 2022 09:05
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I think it's partly neoliberal brain poisoning and partly a way to try and appeal to pro-nuclear people without actually having to do anything and alienate the anti-nuclear contingent.
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Aug 24, 2022 09:17
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His Divine Shadow posted:Dadgostar has come out with some policy suggestions that have gotten the approval of people not very leftist recently though, such as her idea to prioritize swedish electricity consumers over german ones. Export limitations. I think that kind of stuff hits home with a lot of people. More in that left-populist vein is needed, get the people easy scape goats (big corporations, free trade and market worship) and a convincing narrative as to how it'd be in their interests to vote for them. Agree on this values stuff, people don't vote for values, they vote for what they see as their interest. everyone's going pro-nuclear, it's not a hot issue - even the Greens are slowly coming around on some form of nuclear energy production. i've posted about this before, but the anti-nuclear position is basically a remnant of the countercultural anti-militarism of the sixties through eighties period, an connected to a real hope of seeing a world freed from nuclear weapons. most of the actual reasons to be anti-nuclear are now gone, replaced by middle-class property value concerns, but those are understated by the parties involved and there's always a certain ideological lag to these things, especially when one cannot really have frank public discussions about them (i.e. nobody's going to openly admit that property values are what's driving their policy positions). but yeah, attacking cases of markets failing for people is good left-wing politics. the issue is that for that sort of policy to be *generally credible* you have to openly confront the EU, which everyone understands to be a very dicey proposition. then you look more closely at where the parties fall when it comes down to it: something like this happened with jeremy corbyn in britain, where the brexit issue ended up becoming a matter of signalling his loyalty to one or the other part of his base, and where he ended up siding with the urban, young, educated people over the ageing, low-income property-owning people from the countryside. if given a choice like that, hardly any left-wing party will be expected to side with the old rurals; they will almost universally come down on the side of cosmopolitan youngsters. culture war is used to differentiate this sort of thing; who is this party actually representing? so back when there was a drug policy liberalisation attempt by the previous government, they turned it into a culture war and effectively forced Labour to side with conservative and concerned older people in outlying districts over more urban voters precisely because they hadn't gotten anything lately and were getting pissed off enough about it that whole local party groups were defecting. labour has some deep commitments to a few things: a pro-EU attitude, NATO-based security policy, centralised wage negotiations with attendand discipline, and scientific (read: social-economically sound) governance. out of these, the NATO policy is the only one which doesn't tend to come into direct conflict with large chunks of their actual voter base, so they occasionally have to give them *something*. that something can be a ferry subsidy, or it can be a hard line on narcotics. this is not a stable situation, and so people are abandoning Labour in droves. i was hoping that their new dirigiste outlook involved a somewhat less evangelical attitude to those core issues when they took office, but evidently not.
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Aug 24, 2022 11:07
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To be frank about Jeremy Corbyn as a person, his position after the vote was was brexit is happening, 100%, we have to do this now. And IMO he was right. He was basically coerced into the 2nd ref stuff against his will and had his allies publicly turning on him beforehand. But that kind of finagling turned the 2019 election into another brexit voter instead of a vote about the policies and changes in UK society jeremy corby wanted to introduce. I also see strong signs of anti-nuclear politics yet in the swedish left. The finnish one not so much. But I'd say it's still a hot topic in Swedish politics.
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Aug 24, 2022 11:50
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to be clear, the norwegian left is also still in the main very much anti-nuclear energy - it's just that there's a lot of movement on the issue. in ~ten years i expect a formally pro-nuclear energy stance to be mostly universal, with objections coming from issues of localisation and cost rather than objections to the technology as such. re: corbyn and brexit, he was hosed no matter what he chose once 2019 became a brexit election. both halves of his voter coalition would've seen it as a complete betrayal had he gone with the other half, is my point
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Aug 24, 2022 11:52
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Personally I don't think that, I think the urban voters would've still voted for him anyway, since with no pro-2nd ref option in the election aside from squirrel murderer, it really couldn't have become a brexit election. That was taken out of his hands back in 2018 already though, so by 2019 it was too late anyway to turn back. They should've just done what he said from the start because he was right, as he so often is. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 12:26
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Brexit's problem was that Corbyn was an Eurosceptic who did vague Remainer body motions not because he believed in or wanted any of that, but because not doing that would've alienated every young person from ever touching Labour again. It was very uninspiring, and adding internal faction war in the party to that did spell their doom, basically. Ending up with Starmer at the head, however, was possibly even more stupid from the party. I'm not holding my breath for seeing a Labour government until at least 2030s, what is there to say about government I'd consider left-leaning.
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Aug 24, 2022 12:35
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Yeah, he sealed his fate the moment he didn't throw the Labour right into a meat grinder. Even if he had managed to somehow make a "We're doing Brexit"-coalition with the consent of all his younger supporters, the Labour right would just have briefed against him and convinced all the old fucks that they would somehow cancel Brexit. Because they're the exact kind of slimy fucks that people associate the EU with.
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Aug 24, 2022 13:06
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Cirvot posted:All this really shows is that if you were going to vote V then you should 100% vote V. We also don't want Nazis in government agencies, and if MP goes that's a goddamn garantuee. Right now it's looking like they're gonna make it but I'm seriously concidering 1x MP vote for parliament. I think the flirt with L is more to provoke more internal arguments in L than anything else. I seriously doubt Magdalena expects them to take her up on it, rather her goal is to come of as more responsible and less tribalistic. As for V in cabinet, I'd love to but theres no way that passes one session of parliament. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 13:17
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