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kazil posted:Has there been a single D+ show, MCU or Star Wars, that hasn't upset the chud crowd? Why do those idiots keep coming back to these shows if they hate them so much? This is big legacy franchise fandom as a whole. I think decades of marketing these franchises as lifestyles and key personality traits is kind of coming home to roost, as you just get constant meltdowns from the white male fans who were the sole marketing demographic from the 90's onward, when those franchises move to become more inclusive. It even happens with Star Trek, which has literally been about progressive politics and inclusivity since the 60's - but people get really toxic about Star Trek Discovery, which stars a Black actress, normalises trans and gay people, etc etc. Which is bad not just because of the obvious, but because it's a show that does have serious flaws, none of which have anything to do with its casting or identity politics. But the chuds drown out any of that stuff, and in turn leads to a self-satisfaction on the part of the show of 'we're pissing off the chuds so we're doing something right', but like it's possible to be on the right side of history and still make bad television.
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Aug 22, 2022 22:18
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| # ? May 26, 2024 21:20 |
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Blessed avatar/post/topic-combo. It's not easy being green.
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Aug 22, 2022 22:23
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kazil posted:Has there been a single D+ show, MCU or Star Wars, that hasn't upset the chud crowd? Why do those idiots keep coming back to these shows if they hate them so much? I think it's just a function of these all being popular franchises. If the most unhinged 0.5% of any fanbase decide to be toxic shitposters, then any franchise with millions of fans is going to have an execrable online fandom. Like, non-crazy people wouldn't try to "discuss" any show on twitter in the first place (not without limited commenting anyways), so it's all people who don't mind that they're shouting incoherently into the void.
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Aug 22, 2022 22:25
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RC Cola posted:what was the agenda That Jen being in control of her anger (and thus able to control her Hulk persona) right from jump trivializes Banner’s trauma he experienced as the Hulk. A specific example that was given was “Banner saw half his friends turn to dust before his eyes, but poor Jen got catcalled, boo hoo.” Nevermind that Jen (and half the planet) presumably saw half of her friends turn to dust too, or was turned to dust herself. Also nevermind that many of Banner’s traumas are directly related to his inability to control the Hulk persona. Jen being in control *right now*, 24 hours after getting transformed, does not preclude her losing her poo poo and turning into a rage monster if things get superhero-crazy. Like, that exact thing has happened in the comics where she just loses control and goes nuts, multiple times. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 22:26
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kazil posted:Has there been a single D+ show, MCU or Star Wars, that hasn't upset the chud crowd? Why do those idiots keep coming back to these shows if they hate them so much? what else do they have to do, man the people upset at woke/outrage culture must be outraged or else what are they living for
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Aug 22, 2022 22:33
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Xenomrph posted:That Jen being in control of her anger (and thus able to control her Hulk persona) right from jump trivializes Banner’s trauma he experienced as the Hulk. Yeah, it's made reading about She-Hulk on Twitter impossible right now. Not that reading about anything comic book related on Twitter is ever a good idea, but you get what I'm saying. These "hot takes" about how Jen hasn't gone through nearly as much trauma as Bruce, so the show is just another piece in the Marvel "woke agenda", make me want to quit the internet for a while. I've been wanting low stakes, fun Marvel for a long time, and I know I'm not alone, given all the people (again, myself included) I've seen complaining about how every Marvel movie is about the end of the world/galaxy. The show is fun. Just, like, have fun. It's only been one episode, but I know I am, so far. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 22:41
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RC Cola posted:what was the agenda without knowing, gonna guess "talking about how society is misogynist in any way" edit: lol yep Xenomrph posted:That Jen being in control of her anger (and thus able to control her Hulk persona) right from jump trivializes Banner’s trauma he experienced as the Hulk. To me that scene was a clear commentary on how society expects men to do little in controlling their emotions or expressing them, or to a point, even being aware of them. Every woman has experienced how close many men are to becoming rage monsters, especially if you turn them down for a date. For Bruce, controlling his emotions and integrating them into his personality instead of just letting them rage uncontrolled was a huge ordeal that he was allowed to gently caress off to a beach house and do at his leisure. For the average woman, controlling your rage at the many injustices of the world you live in is something you learn at a young age or you are effectively ostracized. Women are generally construed as being "overly" emotional but that's just many men interpreting them actually dealing with their emotions when many guys distance themselves and bury that part of themselves. Women on the whole tend to be much better at controlling emotions because they have to be. That line resonated with almost every woman I know and caused a lot of head scratching or annoyance by many of the men. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Aug 22, 2022 |
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Aug 22, 2022 22:53
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Xenomrph posted:That Jen being in control of her anger (and thus able to control her Hulk persona) right from jump trivializes Banner’s trauma he experienced as the Hulk. I assume your friend knew, or at least, was told, that this has literally always been the case with She-Hulk i.e for over 40 years of comics and that her problems as a Hulk manifest in a different way than those Bruce does? She has the occasional freak out, but it's more often a problem being stuck in one form or another. At which point, what is there even left to argue? Should Disney have changed the character to be different from the thing people have enjoyed for decades now, or something? Would this be the one time someone would advocate for doing that, I wonder 
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Aug 22, 2022 23:04
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Oh yeah I forgot to mention, the ex-friend in question capped off his radical misunderstanding of She-Hulk by saying “mansplaining is a sexist term”.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:05
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Looks like you didn't lose anything of value ending that relationship
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Aug 22, 2022 23:07
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tsob posted:I assume your friend knew, or at least, was told, that this has literally always been the case with She-Hulk i.e for over 40 years of comics and that her problems as a Hulk manifest in a different way than those Bruce does? She has the occasional freak out, but it's more often a problem being stuck in one form or another. At which point, what is there even left to argue? Should Disney have changed the character to be different from the thing people have enjoyed for decades now, or something? Would this be the one time someone would advocate for doing that, I wonder
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Aug 22, 2022 23:08
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Necrothatcher posted:Frog Man was in one of the trailers: That could be anyone.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:11
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I thought it was Kick-rear end.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:18
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Vintersorg posted:I thought it was Kick-rear end. He looks like store "store brand" Power Ranger.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:31
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Looks like Judo Master making a cross over appearance.
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Aug 22, 2022 23:46
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MH Knights posted:He looks like store "store brand" Power Ranger. I would hope for nothing less from MCU Frog Man
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Aug 23, 2022 04:13
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He actually looks less goofy than the comics version.
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Aug 23, 2022 04:16
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You say that like that's a good thing.
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Aug 23, 2022 04:33
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Darth Brooks posted:You say that like that's a good thing. People were saying he was goofy looking, but they have no idea. The comics version is also really fat and the suit slims him down for some reason.
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Aug 23, 2022 04:35
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Mario wore it better.
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Aug 23, 2022 04:48
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Marvel changed his look out of respect for Brick Frog
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Aug 23, 2022 05:04
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Jaxyon posted:For Bruce, controlling his emotions and integrating them into his personality instead of just letting them rage uncontrolled was a huge ordeal that he was allowed to gently caress off to a beach house and do at his leisure. For the average woman, controlling your rage at the many injustices of the world you live in is something you learn at a young age or you are effectively ostracized. I think that's an oversimplification of Hulk's character arc. For time between the initial incident and the Avengers, Bruce was ostracized from his society. He was a fugitive of the US government, moving between different countries while trying to manage his condition. He was brought into SHEILD, but then an uncontrolled rage outburst forced him to flee once again. The beach house is both a new addition, and also still and indication that he is isolated from society. And the integration is not something to be downplayed. Bruce has sacrificed his physical identity in order to protect those around him and the world in general, after a full decade of trying to control the Hulk naturally. And this step was taken after a referenced attempted suicide and the incorrectly assumed sacrifice of the Banner side of himself at the end of Thor Ragnarok. The price he paid to better protect society at large was extremely steep. This is why the line falls flat for me. She's not talking to Bruce Banner from fifteen years ago as they both start their journey. She's talking to Bruce Banner who's had to constantly manage his emotions or he transforms into a rage monster and people around him die, while being hunted by the government and alien forces. She's talking about very real world problems, then immediately comparing that to comic book level bullshit. To be clear, I'm not saying I have an issue with why she can de-Hulk at will. There's always a buy-in for fiction, especially for comic book fiction, so if that's the reason, that's the reason. I'm just saying it's bad character writing to me to have Jen say she has had to control her emotions infinitely more than the Hulk has. It snaps me out of the scene, because it doesn't feel like the line was written with consideration with who she's talking to.
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Aug 23, 2022 05:17
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Ubik_Lives posted:I think that's an oversimplification of Hulk's character arc. For time between the initial incident and the Avengers, Bruce was ostracized from his society. He was a fugitive of the US government, moving between different countries while trying to manage his condition. He was brought into SHEILD, but then an uncontrolled rage outburst forced him to flee once again. The beach house is both a new addition, and also still and indication that he is isolated from society. I'm reading it as Bruce's split identity being a function of his poor level of emotional maturity as a white man in modern society, contrasted with the level of rage the average woman needs to confront and control on a daily basis. Bruce is assuming that she's going to have the same journey as him, learn the same lessons, need to do the same type of emotional work...but she's simply way ahead of him before she ever got his blood. The personality split is a function of his emotional maturity rather than the change/gamma/etc. It's entirely possible that if Bruce had been born a woman, he'd never have the personality separation at all. I'm aware that's a different interpretation than the comics, but I believe that's the point the writers were making, as a commentary on a regular relationship problem that men and women have.
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Aug 23, 2022 05:33
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Ubik_Lives posted:I think that's an oversimplification of Hulk's character arc. For time between the initial incident and the Avengers, Bruce was ostracized from his society. He was a fugitive of the US government, moving between different countries while trying to manage his condition. He was brought into SHEILD, but then an uncontrolled rage outburst forced him to flee once again. The beach house is both a new addition, and also still and indication that he is isolated from society. Jen the character wasn't there for and might not even know the full context of about half the things you just mentioned; if her dialogue had taken everything on Sakaar into account it would have been substantially worse character writing She said what she said, which was well within the character as we understand her; we don't know that she's right, about any of it. We definitely haven't had enough to figure out whether or not she's speaking for the writers, or if she's going to be proven horribly wrong about some things in a later episode. I used to have a friend that would describe every unexplained thing in a show as a plot hole, because it was unexplained. Even if the show still had plenty of time to explain it, even if it was HEAVILY implied the show was building toward explaining it, he'd say the show had a "really obvious plot hole." Drove me loving nuts. We know from the episode itself that Jen's exposure to gamma radiation was both less substantial than Bruce's and "diluted" by his already having gamma lab'd himself; I'm perfectly willing to accept that there's more to it than Jen's plucky girlboss attitude based on the circumstances alone. Saying it's bad character writing for Jen herself to reach that conclusion, though... I don't get it. She's a little self absorbed, a little ignorant to Bruce's struggles, a little flawed. That is character writing. Maybe the show will prove me wrong and she's actually right about everything all the time, but I'm not ready to call it either way after one episode.
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Aug 23, 2022 05:37
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Bruce's whole character arc comes back to Betty not telling him to get a grip 15+ years ago.
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Aug 23, 2022 05:39
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Ubik_Lives posted:This is why the line falls flat for me. She's not talking to Bruce Banner from fifteen years ago as they both start their journey. She's talking to Bruce Banner who's had to constantly manage his emotions or he transforms into a rage monster and people around him die, while being hunted by the government and alien forces. She's talking about very real world problems, then immediately comparing that to comic book level bullshit. It's a good line that does nothing to diminish Bruce's journey, but does acknowledge real world double standards about emotions. I kind of feel like the episode went out of its way to emphasize the fact that Bruce is far stronger and more capable than she is. The only thing she does "better" him is emotional control. And maybe flexibility in that one yoga scene? I don't know. The amount of hand wringing about that one very good line about how she got her emotional control is so bizarre. It's like people need the Hulk to be better than her in literally every way or they won't accept her. Kind of messed up.
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Aug 23, 2022 06:49
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Eiba posted:It's like people need the Hulk to be better than her in literally every way It's this op
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Aug 23, 2022 06:52
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Jaxyon posted:without knowing, gonna guess "talking about how society is misogynist in any way" Yeah my wife kept going "yup. Feel that. Yup. She gets me." I'm excited for episode 2
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Aug 23, 2022 07:02
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The contest between Hulk and She-Hulk was poorly conceived. 1) It's not a question that should be answered so it's a waste of time and focus. It's like the argument over who's faster - the Flash or Superman. You can be coy about it and imply things but you should never have like an actual race. Ultimately it doesn't matter because they have whatever powers they have and whether they are stronger or weaker than other superheroes adds nothing to their character or their stories. 2) Too easy, too fast. It's a missed opportunity to explore learning about her powers and coming to terms with her new reality over more episodes. Following characters is interesting when they are on an arc or a journey. She-Hulk got there in one episode. It's very, very dumb if this now becomes monster-of-week. 3) It makes Banner look like a useless idiot which would be fine except the MCU hasn't really established that. Hulk has fought a bunch of battles and spent a few years as a gladiator but a random lawyer is more or less immediately as competent as he is. It is just unnecesarry. Apart from that the show is fine. I probably won't revisit it - it didn't really have a hook to get me invested and I got the vibe that it was a little generic and formulaic.
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Aug 23, 2022 07:15
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I think part of it is that people are just defensive about Bruce after ten years and five movies. The whole MCU model is people being so invested in these characters that they keep coming back over and over. Obviously there are chuds being chuds out there but I bet there'd be similar issues if there was a similar dynamic between Yelena and Nat.
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Aug 23, 2022 07:36
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Lunatic Sledge posted:Jen the character wasn't there for and might not even know the full context of about half the things you just mentioned; if her dialogue had taken everything on Sakaar into account it would have been substantially worse character writing Oh yeah, she doesn't know the full details of Bruce's life. Part of Sakaar was brought up in this episode functionally as new information for Jen. But she knows enough to throw his life back into his face, describing it as a cautionary tale. Indeed, that lack of clarity helps sell why she'd want to get away from the Avengers life. All she knows is government agents knocking on her door and asking if she's had any contact with Bruce, news footage of him tearing through city streets, chunks of his life with him missing presumed dead, and some alien ship that ran them off the road. But that's also kind of the point. If she doesn't know what he's been through, why be so confident that you've had things so much worse? I mean, I'm with you that characters can have issues, and even say things that they don't mean and will later regret saying. Jen is going through a lot of poo poo with suddenly being Hulked up, and being pressured into becoming someone she's not, so it's a perfectly understandable response to just shut others out and try to deal with it yourself (especially whilst hungover). It's not like she's in a perfect state of control because five minutes later she's punching the Hulk straight in the face. And it doesn't bother me if it is or isn't the reason for her control. As stated, we don't know the gamma dose, her blood is different and acts differently to gamma, it got Smart/Smug Hulk blood rather than regular, and she could straight up be wrong that she has things under control. When she came out of the death chamber, she was raging out loud and destroyed the door before snapping to, and brushing it off as not being used to the condition yet. And that's also slightly in keeping with MCU Hulk, which appears far more defensively than due to aggression (with that whole 200 bpm in the Hulk movie). But if it is, that's fine too. It's just that you're talking to someone who's eight feet tall, six feet wide, and green. How do you even get halfway through that sentence without reassessing where it's going? Also, I don't really get what the threat is supposed to be from their perspective if she doesn't learn to control her anger. She turns green. And? Without an alter-ego that either of them are aware of, are they just concerned that she's just going to be comically breaking coffee cups in her hands at work, or hitting her horn too hard when people cut her off in traffic?
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Aug 23, 2022 08:36
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Ubik_Lives posted:If she doesn't know what he's been through, why be so confident that you've had things so much worse? drat do I have a list of real human beings for you
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Aug 23, 2022 09:32
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Does Jen actually say she's had it worse? I thought the point was that their experiences (particularly those before becoming gamma mutates) were very different, so expecting Bruce's "A Dummy's Guide to Hulking Out" to be relevant wasn't necessarily realistic.
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Aug 23, 2022 09:55
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“Everyone being better at dealing with hulking out than the Hulk” is the most comics accurate thing the MCU has done in its existence.
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Aug 23, 2022 09:59
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:“Everyone being better at dealing with hulking out than the Hulk” is the most comics accurate thing the MCU has done in its existence. loving truth Gather round, children, and let me tell you a story about a Hulk... that was red...
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Aug 23, 2022 10:18
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:“Everyone being better at dealing with hulking out than the Hulk” is the most comics accurate thing the MCU has done in its existence. Word.
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Aug 23, 2022 10:58
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Party Boat posted:Does Jen actually say she's had it worse? I thought the point was that their experiences (particularly those before becoming gamma mutates) were very different, so expecting Bruce's "A Dummy's Guide to Hulking Out" to be relevant wasn't necessarily realistic. Bruce: [..]"But we can't pretend like we aren't two of the few people on earth that can actually protect her. Which is why we have to make sure of your ability to tolerate distress and regulate your emotions, especially your anger." Jen: "I mean, here's the thing Bruce; I'm great at controlling my anger." Bruce: "Hmm." Jen: "I do it all the time; when I'm catcalled in the street, when incompetent men explain my own area of expertise to me. I do it pretty much every day, because if I don't I will get called emotional, difficult, or might just literally get murdered. So, I'm an expert at controlling my anger, because I do it infinitely more than you." The conversation revolves around the need for Jen to be doing Bruce's control techniques to manage stress while fighting Avenger level threats. Jen largely counters that she doesn't want to fight Avenger level threats, but we also get that directly comparative exchange indicating that Jen doesn't believe Bruce has anything to teach her. I don't read it as an explanation of the changed outcome, but of comparative experience. Neither of them are discussing how Jen is having a different outcome until after Jen changes back and forth shortly after this exchange. Which is why I don't like the exchange, with the comparison of real world problems to comic book ones. You can say that Jen is being self centred and is ignorant of what the Hulk has been through, but it doesn't stop the real world problems from being cheapened by the direct comparison. Is it better or worse to be catcalled in the street, or be mind controlled by a witch to attack the general public? To deal with mansplaining or to live with the knowledge that your alter-ego has a body count, both intentional and accidental? To be called difficult or actively hunted by government forces with super soldiers? And the answer for us is the real ones because they are real and have actual weight behind them, but in the show, it's the comic book ones because of their magnitude, leading to dissonance. If they just changed the line to drop the "because I do it infinitely more than you" and changed it to "because I am forced to do it all the god drat time", then the issues are free to breathe on their own, and would be much better in my opinion. Ubik_Lives fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 11:41
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She's Womansplaining.
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Aug 23, 2022 12:00
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The lawyer show hasn't even gotten to the litigation stuff and it's already contentious lmao
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Aug 23, 2022 12:04
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side note: is Orphan Black really not available anywhere on streaming services in the US? do i have to sail the high seas or get a blu-ray box set? (I don’t like paying for individual shows in digital format unless i’m definitely gonna revisit it)
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