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silence_kit posted:Because it is easy for people to get student loans, schools are not under a lot of pressure to control costs to keep college more affordable. As a result school budgets and tuitions have ballooned and a lot of the money goes to things which have very little to do with education and to administrator and other employee salaries who aren’t actually involved in the education of students. It’s wasteful. Just saying "it makes it worse" doesn't mean it makes it worse, though. College administrations weren't waiting for a loan forgiveness to increase prices. There are no brakes on that car. Putting in a seatbelt isn't going to make the car more dangerous for the driver.
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Aug 23, 2022 18:29
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mastershakeman posted:Ok, so how does the 10k directly help you? Can you give me the numbers because I don't see how they work off the top of my head. You're on IBR, right? Because if you have 10k of debt, and are on IBR with a nonzero payment plan you're making... 12k a year? I'm not giving you my personal details, but if someone is making $40,000 a year (with 2% annual income growth) with a loan balance of $45,000, a $10,000 forgiveness would decrease their total amount paid over a 25 year period by $26,455 dollars. quote:As for 'it will make things worse,' i guess it boils down to my gut feeling. Don't have a way to prove anything, just going to say forgiveness now = colleges justifying increasing costs with less pushback in the future. It sure isn't going to get better. I'm sorry, but that isn't a real argument. Colleges are already increasing costs with no real pushback. quote:Of course, none of these even addresses 'why aren't you helping anyone but college grads on this, considering they have better financial outcomes' but that's a whole nother can of worms that's been rooted around in many many times. I asked you before, and you didn't answer, why would student loan forgiveness need to address people who aren't even students? We should address college debt because doing it helps people. Not every policy ever has to help literally every person. It's very "crabs in a bucket" mentality to say that we shouldn't forgive student loans because it doesn't help non-students. Xombie fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 18:39
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Student loan forgiveness should be paired with cost controls on higher education but is also inherently good.
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Aug 23, 2022 18:40
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Xombie posted:I asked you before, and you didn't answer, why would student loan forgiveness need to address people who aren't even students? We should address college debt because doing it helps people. Not every policy ever has to help literally every person. It's very "crabs in a bucket" mentality to say that we shouldn't forgive student loans because it doesn't help non-students. Zombie I agree with you 100%, but labor that traditionally vote Dem that have just been poo poo on consistently the past decade will not look at this rationally. This is just another “Dems are gonna put coal miners out of business with our climate policies” gaffe if they give the biggest broad-based government hand out in recent memory to people with post-secondary educations and offer no feasible benefit to the rest of the base. Republicans are gonna feast on the messaging.
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Aug 23, 2022 18:55
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Xombie posted:Just saying "it makes it worse" doesn't mean it makes it worse, though. College administrations weren't waiting for a loan forgiveness to increase prices. There are no brakes on that car. Putting in a seatbelt isn't going to make the car more dangerous for the driver. I understand how one could come to that conclusion if one had the belief that “college tuition prices will always rapidly rise” was some kind of fundamental law of nature. If you attribute the history of tuition price rises to the existence of a money faucet from the federal government through the student loan program, then you’d be more willing to believe that loan forgiveness would have an effect. For what it is worth, I don’t believe that a small one time loan forgiveness would have a very dramatic effect.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:00
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Big Slammu posted:Zombie I agree with you 100%, but labor that traditionally vote Dem that have just been poo poo on consistently the past decade will not look at this rationally. This is just another “Dems are gonna put coal miners out of business with our climate policies” gaffe if they give the biggest broad-based government hand out in recent memory to people with post-secondary educations and offer no feasible benefit to the rest of the base. Republicans are gonna feast on the messaging. I would like to know who exactly is swayed by this messaging. Like, as in broken down polling numbers. Because I have a feeling that the chips will fall in the realm of "Republican voters hate it", "older Democratic voters aren't jazzed but don't care much", and "it's extremely beneficial to younger Democratic voters". Young college graduates are part of the Democratic base, whereas this supposed blue collar swing voter hasn't proven to be much of anything but a myth for several election cycles. Blue collar men without college degrees overwhelmingly vote straight-ticket Republican, and have long before student loan forgiveness became a possibility.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:04
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slurm posted:Student loan forgiveness should be paired with cost controls on higher education but is also inherently good. Yeah, it's not a solution to the issue of higher education costs and student loans, but it's a necessary step to help people out right now. After it's done, there should also be massive, massive changes made to the student loan system and higher education itself so that this problem doesn't keep repeating itself.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:05
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Xombie posted:I would like to know who exactly is swayed by this messaging. Like, as in broken down polling numbers. Because I have a feeling that the chips will fall in the realm of "Republican voters hate it", "older Democratic voters aren't jazzed but don't care much", and "it's extremely beneficial to younger Democratic voters". Those blue collar voters were part of the democratic coalition in the Obama years and that's the major change between those and now (and most red state senators that have held on do so because they haven't lost those folks). It is unclear if that damage can be reversed or if there's further damage that can be done, but it's not like we're talking about offending, say, wealthy white southern racists.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:07
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PT6A posted:there should also be massive, massive changes made to the student loan system and higher education itself so that this problem doesn't keep repeating itself You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:09
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Xombie posted:Blue collar men without college degrees overwhelmingly vote straight-ticket Republican, and have long before student loan forgiveness became a possibility. Democrats have traditionally supported labor unions and Republicans have traditionally been anti-union.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:09
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tagesschau posted:You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Yeah this is really the biggest single silver bullet you could use. Suddenly, it becomes a very bad idea to the lender to load up young graduates with unsustainable levels of debt. Plus it hits both public and private loans.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:12
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tagesschau posted:You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Yeah, this. As a result lenders would be way more selective about who they would offer loans to.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:13
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Xombie posted:I would like to know who exactly is swayed by this messaging. Like, as in broken down polling numbers. Because I have a feeling that the chips will fall in the realm of "Republican voters hate it", "older Democratic voters aren't jazzed but don't care much", and "it's extremely beneficial to younger Democratic voters". You probably aren't going to know. It likely isn't very many people, but unless there is a significant and harsh reaction to it, then you can't really tell. According to polling, partial forgiveness has about a 60% approval rate, so a lot of people who didn't go to college are okay with. Full forgiveness is less popular, so for some people, the amount actually does make them less supportive of it. But, are those people going to change their vote, not vote when they otherwise would, or come out to vote against Democrats because of that issue when they otherwise would have stayed home? Probably not. Some people will definitely be legitimately annoyed or upset. But, it probably isn't enough to make a big difference. Xombie posted:Blue collar men without college degrees overwhelmingly vote straight-ticket Republican, and have long before student loan forgiveness became a possibility. Blue collar white men do. People under $50k overall vote Democratic.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:13
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silence_kit posted:Democrats have traditionally supported labor unions and Republicans have traditionally been anti-union. I have bad news for you about how long it's been since this tradition mattered when it comes to voting.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:16
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tagesschau posted:You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Not really. Even before the 2005 bankruptcy bill, only about 2% of student loans were ever discharged in bankruptcy. Many people will want to go to college regardless of the cost and you'll end up in a situation where it is more difficult for people to go to college if their parents have bad credit. The schools themselves also don't care what happens to the debt after they get the money. They aren't going to reduce prices on the basis that some of their students might go bankrupt later in life. silence_kit posted:Yeah, this. As a result lenders would be way more selective about who they would offer loans to. Almost all new student loans are issued directly by the federal government now. Unless you want the feds deciding who gets loans based on credit checks or what your major is going to be, then that isn't going to be a dramatic industry-wide change.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:16
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tagesschau posted:You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Or... hear me out... make university free, so people can get a higher education without risking financial ruin. Bankruptcy is better than loans that can't ever be discharged, but it's still not very good, is it? And if lenders get much more selective, that's going to decrease the number of people for whom higher education is an option, which is not great for society. We do know what the answer is, other countries already do it, and it ain't an adjustment to the legal status of student loans. EDIT: Also, since it came up earlier in the thread: means testing the student loan relief is dumb as gently caress, and useless. The high earners who are getting student debt relief they "don't need" are also paying vastly more in taxes to support, among other things, the student loan relief. That's how society works. PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 19:19
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Xombie posted:I have bad news for you about how long it's been since this tradition mattered when it comes to voting. 2018, when Brown and Manchin kept their senate seats off of support from those groups. It may matter for Ryan's race in Ohio this year as well.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:24
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evilweasel posted:Yeah this is really the biggest single silver bullet you could use. Suddenly, it becomes a very bad idea to the lender to load up young graduates with unsustainable levels of debt. Plus it hits both public and private loans. Isn't the way that government loans are structure literally textbook case of capture though? the colleges know they get paid out, so they can charge whatever they want. So making the loan dischargeable doesn't do much for cost control because the colleges get paid no matter what. The government should just say if your college wants access to federal monies and the student loan program, give us the true cost/how is your money being spent and then you'll see prices go down. Also more funding for public universities.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:25
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:No, do you? You're the one who brought percentages up in the first place. You could've just said "a bunch of people told me" if that's what you meant. Instead you took something purely anecdotal and made it try to sound like concrete data. Like I said, weasel language. I remember telling everybody here that I was seeing containerships with very very shallow drafts. My source for that was: Me looking at the drafts of containerships on the pier. This is to say observing. So I stated talking to marine stakeholders as I encountered them in my work day and telling folks about it here. I got the same bull poo poo from the same people. My source for this is similar. I ask every parent I encounter and all the ones that I know IRL. I’m telling you the observation my brain shits out after doing that for over two years now. Other posters are now telling you surveys are 55% of parents saying school closures were bad for mental health. Years from we will have data on this, when these kids in this cohort are grown up and we have outcomes on the cohort. I do think about this in terms of observation. So that’s the language set I am using, even if I am using it in semi casual observation. Where one looks intentionally and sees what they see that is what observation is. If one isn’t a researcher one can do it informally. In well over a decade and a half we’ll start to have adult outcomes on the pandemic k-5 cohort. Then I’ll get to know if my observations were correct. But goons love to tell people the poo poo they see isn’t real. And the harm is now, and being in the affected segment, the urgency to do something about it is immanent. And nothing is going happen to help. I’m trying to explain that anger to you. And how dangerous it is right now because the right clearly sees it and is manipulating it. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 19:29
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PT6A posted:Or... hear me out... make university free, so people can get a higher education without risking financial ruin.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:30
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Mooseontheloose posted:From a pure strategic standpoint Nikki fried should get the shot because Charlie Crist has lost how many statewide elections now? at least 2 playing moderate white bread guy. The only ads I've seen about the race have been Crist bitching about Fried attacking his record on abortion. Both are currently slated to lose to DeSantis in the general, but I think there may be a slim chance at an upset if Fried wins the primary. Not much mind you, but there is zero excitement for Crist from what I've seen.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:36
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it is hard to understand how the republican senate campaigns could be underperforming with this sort of skilled leadership https://twitter.com/SenRickScott/status/1561818208142823424?s=20&t=eJsBENC9Y6NQDJaL_66t3Q https://twitter.com/JoshKraushaar/status/1562129861459812353?s=20&t=eJsBENC9Y6NQDJaL_66t3Q
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Aug 23, 2022 19:41
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I remember telling everybody here that I was seeing containerships with very very shallow drafts. My source for that was: Me looking at the drafts of containerships on the pier. This is to say observing. So I stated talking to marine stakeholders as I encountered them in my work day and telling folks about it here. I got the same bull poo poo from the same people. I don't think anyone ever doubted that people are angry. You just made a questionable claim based on anecdotal data and jumped down people's throats when they asked basic follow up questions. That's all.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:46
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tagesschau posted:You'd solve 90% of the problems by making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why would Biden want to roll back one of his signature Senatorial accomplishments?
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Aug 23, 2022 19:50
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This is sourced by The Hill, so a bit of skepticism on how accurate it is is warranted, but they say that the student loan pause will be extended by approximately 4 months (which would be about February 1st, 2023) and that Pell Grant recipients and those who qualified for need-based financial aid under FAFSA will get up to an additional $10k (for a total of up to $20k) forgiven. https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1562138874796818432 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 19:53
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evilweasel posted:it is hard to understand how the republican senate campaigns could be underperforming with this sort of skilled leadership
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Aug 23, 2022 19:56
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Bar Ran Dun posted:And nothing is going happen to help. I’m trying to explain that anger to you. And how dangerous it is right now because the right clearly sees it and is manipulating it. What on earth pandemic restrictions are you even talking about? I haven't been anywhere in over a year where the pandemic was more than a brief historic event. Masks are off and everything is reopened.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:58
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FlamingLiberal posted:Every goddamn time Sure but we discussed this before right? The hypocrisy is the point. Unless it’s something truly egregious, it doesn’t matter to voters. The base doesn’t care as long as it leads to results. Dems could learn from this (in a way the benefits their base). Unfortunately their hypocrisy usually extends to making covid rules and then ignoring them or publicly complaining about tax cheats / insider trading but then taking part as well.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:11
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I don't think anyone ever doubted that people are angry. You just made a questionable claim based on anecdotal data and jumped down people's throats when they asked basic follow up questions. That's all. No, I don’t think you understand how angry I am about this all the time. The experienced feeling of it is a screaming, screeching “gently caress you”. I was on the slow side at the beginning of the pandemic to understand it, a couple months behind my wife’s experience of it. I almost lost my family from that delay. What you are doing here is not listening. Dismissing as anecdote what I’m telling you. When this is done to people who are telling these things they feel that angry. This response has been ongoing for years now. It started with: well they’re not commuting suicide at higher rates nothing is wrong. That turned to be wrong in high schoolers  The right is exploiting it to push racism and elect fascists.Do you want to quibble or address the substance of what I’m telling you here. Especially as some one else has indicated I’m correct with survey data.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:14
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slurm posted:What on earth pandemic restrictions are you even talking about? I haven't been anywhere in over a year where the pandemic was more than a brief historic event. Masks are off and everything is reopened. There was wide variation across the country. We missed almost a year and a half here. Red states that went back full mask off immediately were also stupid. They should have required 100% masks. And lol getting quality childcare is a problem now because they don’t have labor. It’s still quite bad for parents right now. Your unawareness of this is also infuriating.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:18
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I paid off all my student loans myself. I still want student loans forgiven. Id like my friends to not be in debt and maybe be able to like go do fun poo poo with me. Why is this hard.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:27
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cr0y posted:I paid off all my student loans myself. I still want student loans forgiven. Id like my friends to not be in debt and maybe be able to like go do fun poo poo with me. Why is this hard. The crab bucket mentality is hard to shake for many people.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:31
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Eric Cantonese posted:The crab bucket mentality is hard to shake for many people. Especially boomers.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:32
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is sourced by The Hill, so a bit of skepticism on how accurate it is is warranted, but they say that the student loan pause will be extended by approximately 4 months (which would be about February 1st, 2023) and that Pell Grant recipients and those who qualified for need-based financial aid under FAFSA will get up to an additional $10k (for a total of up to $20k) forgiven. I wonder how this will affect me. I had loans with pell and FAFSA assistance for my undergrad, and loans without any of that for grad. Maybe my undergrad loans will get wiped, since they are less than $20k now?
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Aug 23, 2022 20:35
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skylined! posted:I wonder how this will affect me. I had loans with pell and FAFSA assistance for my undergrad, and loans without any of that for grad. Maybe my undergrad loans will get wiped, since they are less than $20k now? I would guess that they are just going to do "Did you get Pell Grant/FAFSA aid? If Yes: Bonus" because it would be a lot more work to do it any other way. But, we don't know exactly yet and probably won't know for sure until tomorrow.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:39
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Two more convictions from retrial in Whitmer kidnap plotquote:A federal jury on Tuesday convicted two men of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) in 2020, a case that raised alarms about the possibility of politically motivated violence amid the coronavirus pandemic and ahead of a bitterly contested presidential race. A brief refresher (necessary since one of the more reputable left outlets saw fit to dabble in fash apologia in its haste to give the very valid reminder that the FBI is awful. My  y contemporary take is here):A racist militia hatched a scheme to kidnap and/or (and) assassinate Gretchen Whitmer due to her libertycrushing COVID lockdowns and generally being a woman in power. At multiple phases, the FBI had informants monitoring and encouraging proceedings. Six men were initially charged. 2 pled guilty, 2 were acquitted in the first trial, and the final 2 found guilty today after a deadlocked jury in that first trial. The defense's case was that the militiamen (and threepercenters) were big talkers but never had any intent to harm anyone  , making this the fault of the feds.The defense, I'm sure, thought it had its shining moment when they "played audio of FBI agent Hank Impola telling an informant, “A saying we have in my office is, ‘Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story'". Sadly, they were undone by chronological time, revealing a surprisingly prescient agent: quote:But on cross-examination, agent Corey Baumgardner agreed with a prosecutor who said Impola’s remark two months after the arrests was actually a reference to how Croft and Fox would spin the kidnapping allegations All in all, the bullshit on the subject is likely to continue. I'll close with what I felt was the right take in October and remain confident in now: Paracaidas posted:"The FBI routinely wields its power abusively and often misuses informants and undercover agents when attacking political dissidents. We don't know enough to know how abusive they were in Michigan but far more common is abusing these resources against leftwing and muslim organizations. Any laws meant to curb right wing domestic terror must also eliminate these fed practices."
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Aug 23, 2022 20:57
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to put this in context: this judge is a covid-denying trump appointee nutcase https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1562168337706147840?s=20&t=5gu4_UjITVbadgwl5Txdiw that entry reads "your loving motion makes no loving sense, try again and tell me what you want, why you want it, and if i'm allowed to give it to you"
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Aug 23, 2022 21:05
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Trump hasn’t exactly done well in front of his own judges so I think the idea that she’s just going to give him what he wants is a bit premature
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Aug 23, 2022 21:11
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FlamingLiberal posted:Trump hasn’t exactly done well in front of his own judges so I think the idea that she’s just going to give him what he wants is a bit premature That's not what the post said. IANAL My understanding is that any motion for relief has to lay out what the specified relief is and the reason the lawyer writing the motion thinks that relief is both a) appropriate and b)allowable by law. The judge then rules on if the reasoning laid out in the motion is sufficient to support allowing the specified relief. Trump's poo poo pile in document form did neither, but judges don't like just dismissing things so she's giving his team another swing at producing something less fecal in nature. Doesn't mean the judge will grant the relief but it's easier to write a brief on why it was rejected if there are actual arguments to dismantle rather than just filling five pages with increasingly large question marks and ending with 'gently caress you'
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Aug 23, 2022 21:16
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FlamingLiberal posted:Trump hasn’t exactly done well in front of his own judges so I think the idea that she’s just going to give him what he wants is a bit premature trump has gotten thrown every bone by his judges they could manage, it's just he's usually got such insane arguments the best they could do was slow-walk stuff that said, the point is one of the best judges he could have gotten responded to his motion with "what the everliving gently caress is this?" and that is not what we, in the legal world, refer to as a "positive development"
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Aug 23, 2022 21:16
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