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Finger Prince posted:Helmet requirements are good, restrictive licensing is good, cc/power to weight/power output is generally regulated through insurance premiums anyway. All the arguments they make are easily refuted by pointing to the greater popularity and normalization of motorbikes in places where all those things exist. Lane splitting is pretty popular and normal in most of the world; look how well that's gone in the US. Likewise just because your insurance company will limit your engine displacement (I guess if you can't afford a higher premium you won't get a literbike?) doesn't mean the government can't come in and just say "nobody ever needs anything over 600ccs." Refuting their arguments generally comes with as much validity as their arguments do themselves. Just two sides trying to burn the other's strawman. While they're in a stalemate I'll continue to enjoy my 1800cc bike with a 0-60 time of 4-6 business days.
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Aug 24, 2022 19:48
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Finger Prince posted:Helmet requirements are good, restrictive licensing is good, cc/power to weight/power output is generally regulated through insurance premiums anyway. All the arguments they make are easily refuted by pointing to the greater popularity and normalization of motorbikes in places where all those things exist. Restrictive licensing is loving stupid the way it's been implemented in Europe including the UK.
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Aug 24, 2022 19:57
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Strife posted:While they're in a stalemate I'll continue to enjoy my 1800cc bike with a 0-60 time of 4-6 business days. Oh mate, come on! The Milwaukee 8 on my Fat Bob does 0 to 60 in 4.6s according to Harley, and your dresser shouldn't be far off given it has the same engine!
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Aug 24, 2022 19:59
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Steakandchips posted:Restrictive licensing is loving stupid the way it's been implemented in Europe including the UK. Doesn't matter if it's stupid, it hasn't stopped people getting licensed or getting in to riding. If the argument is that these things amount to de facto banning of motorcycles, it's just not true.
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Aug 24, 2022 20:09
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Steakandchips posted:Oh mate, come on! The Milwaukee 8 on my Fat Bob does 0 to 60 in 4.6s according to Harley, and your dresser shouldn't be far off given it has the same engine! Oh yeah, I'm underselling it quite a bit, but the actual acceleration power compared to the size of the motor are about as far from related as it gets. When I filled out the insurance form they asked me about the CC's, not the horsepower and torque. As far as many insurers are concerned it might as well be two H2s strapped together. In non-motorcycle legislation conversation, because this'll likely go in circles until someone broaches a different topic, I finally watched Long Way Round and Long Way Down. LWR is amazing. It was so awesome living vicariously through someone who has the means and opportunity to ride east through Europe and Asia, and the whole show just felt very raw. As a viewer you feel every crash, all the frustration of getting across countries like Mongolia, and the absolute joy of having conquered such a tough ride. LWD is a lot different. It's a lot more of a show than LWR, but they still have a large focus on the people in the areas that they're riding through in Africa. The dynamic changes a bit (for the worse) toward the end, but it still captures a lot of the spirit of LWR. And like LWR, it's likely not something that's even possible today, especially for an American. There were a few countries that the American members of the crew just couldn't get into and had to take flights around. By far the best part of each series are the people. I was floored by these poor desolate areas they'd ride through, and how incredibly friendly and helpful the most random strangers were (except that one dude in Kazakhstan). There's these people who have almost nothing, and they're so willing to share what they can with Charlie and Ewan. Whether it's food, a place to stay, gifts, or just general hospitality, it's really nice to see that by and large the default approach most people have is to be helpful. I just started Long Way Up, and 3 episodes in it's very different from the first two shows. Ewan and Charlie's relationship is a lot different, they're a lot older, and the bullshit of trying to get electric vehicles from the middle of nowhere South American up into California is the primary focus, not the riding, and certainly not the people. But even without Long Way Up, the first two series are loving amazing and everyone should watch them.
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Aug 24, 2022 20:15
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The shows are good indeed. I will say though the backup generator and planes and trucks for the electric motorcycles in the last one was a bit ridiculous.
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Aug 24, 2022 21:16
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Finger Prince posted:Doesn't matter if it's stupid, it hasn't stopped people getting licensed or getting in to riding. Yes, it has.
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Aug 24, 2022 21:16
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Steakandchips posted:Yes, it has. Has it though? https://www.statista.com/statistics/312594/motorcycle-and-car-registrations-in-the-united-kingdom/ Looks like it's been steady for the last 20 years.
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Aug 24, 2022 21:31
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The thing to remember about how kind people in the less wealthy areas they went through are is that cooperation and community are actually the baseline for humanity and what actual human nature is. ”rugged individualism” is modern nonsense cooked up by the capitalist class to keep us from banding together and taking our actual share of the resources
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Aug 24, 2022 21:56
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The new license tier system in the EU, and especially in the Netherlands is completely ridiculous. The old situation: at 18 you ride a 25kw bike for 2 years, after that you can go full power after doing your exams again on a full power bike - or you wait 4 years and get it automatically. The 25kw bikes were fast enough to get out of their own way with some confidence, but slow enough to not wipe out if you ham fist the throttle. This was totally fine. I think this was a good system. The new system: 11kW at 18, 35kW at 20, full power at 22, between each step you need to do the exams again, or wait until 24 to get full power automatically - or something like it. I don't remember, it's complicated and it also had some minor modifications in when you can do the full power exam. I am completely confident in stating it's safer for 18 year olds to ride a 25 or 35kW bike than an 11kW bike that can only barely keep up with highway traffic. Especially if the rider is a typical long dutch guy with a boxy build. Meanwhile in Belgium you can ride the 11kW tier on a car license, and in Germany with a car license and like 5 hours of lessons, and no exam. This option doesn't exist in the netherlands. There's no sensible reason for the 11kW class to exist here at all, because people from countries where they can ride on their car license or with the very limited lessons, aren't allowed to ride here afaik. Helmet laws are good. I wouldn't be opposed to laws stating you gotta wear a jacket and pants too. But legislators are among the stupidest people in the world, and instead of first making sure people wear *some* gear, Spain already coined the idea to mandate airbag vests or suits. Very much against that. Meanwhile, afaik no country has laws that state all guide rails in corners have to be boarded up, some still have cable type guide rails, and i haven't heard a word about the issues with pretending-to-be-self driving cars not recognizing bikes (and chilren). Ugh. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 22:08
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Finger Prince posted:Has it though? I know many people who did their CBT but couldn’t afford the multiple subsequent A1/A2/A lessons and 7 sodding paid-for tests. It cost me about £3000 to get my full A license including all the exams and lessons.
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Aug 24, 2022 22:13
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LimaBiker posted:The new license tier system in the EU, and especially in the Netherlands is completely ridiculous. It's hard to see this as anything other than making them too painful to own in order to gradually legislate them out of existence, it's very similar to the successful strategy to eradicate smoking by making it difficult, expensive and uncool. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just think there are clear parallels in that they're trying to get rid of a thing that they know people will scream about if you outright ban it, by slowly reducing the population of people getting into it to begin with until it dies on it's own.
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Aug 24, 2022 22:16
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As far as i know, the number of motorcyclists in the Netherlands is still increasing. I don't think this is malevolence - just extreme incompetence in trying to harmonize the EU rules because the Netherlands was one of the few countries that didn't have the 11kW/125cc class that could be ridden without or with limited motorcycle lessons. So for the sake of conformity they introduced it, and then hosed up royally by making it the default entrance tier. Meanwhile tons of people run their bikes without restrictors. Get a fast bike, have a restrictor build in. Take it to a dyno shop. Show the dyno printout to the insurance company, show the dyno printout to the department of motor vehicles, get your fast bike registered as power limited and insured as such, remove restrictor. I think the overbearing tier system is a direct cause of people doing that. I know that happened before the 3 tier system, but i am pretty sure it only got worse.
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Aug 24, 2022 22:23
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Strife posted:The justification for it is ..decent. Something like, if people tried inventing motorcycles today, they'd never be legal because of the wide difference in safety from other motor vehicles. So to keep them from being legislated to death, AMA is against safety legislation of any kind. They say it's a slippery slope from mandatory helmet laws to restrictive licenses to overall CC restrictions on public roads to eventually eliminating motorcycles altogether. Okay except E-bikes became a thing and have like zero regulation whatsoever and people are caving their jaws in and poo poo riding them lmao. Arguing against fairly sensible safety regulations is moronic. I'd much rather see lobbying for more aggressive regulations if anything since we live in an age where Silicon Valley VCs entire business strategy revolves around replicating existing business models but having none of the regulations apply by calling it something different. F1DriverQuidenBerg fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 22:24
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I don't know why you are calling it an EU thing, the A1/A2/A scheme is still legislated per country. I went straight for A, but if you are itching to get on a bike ASAP you need to pay extra, that part is true. The idea is to only let young people ride if they are properly trained. Nothing about this is malicious, but rather entirely based on facts and data, with young riders being tons more likely to act irresponsible with bikes (and crashing). If you just wait it out until you reach the statistical "sane" rider age, it's not more expensive at all. Also, new 50+ riders have to get additional lessons as well because of these data driven policies.
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Aug 24, 2022 23:17
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I do not believe that 18 year olds get hurt less often on a 11kW bike than on a 25 or 35kW bike without the actual statistics. And afaik this current system was introduced because the Netherlands didn't have the 125cc/11kW class, and it was bodged in like this. https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/rijbewijs/rijbewijs-en-het-buitenland The most important sentence is that every member state has to give out the same types of driver's licenses, with the exception of the license for farm tractors that are allowed on public roads. There's a link to the whole european guideline in there but i am not gonna read that lol LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 23:21
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Haha, here we're free to die on whatever displacement bike after you take an online permit test. And you can keep just taking the permit test for year and years.
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Aug 24, 2022 23:59
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I'm of the opinion that discouraging teenagers from riding actual motorbikes, even if they're just 125/250, is counter productive because it makes them poo poo drivers and worse riders later on when they have to learn at a supposedly safe age. We don't keep people from learning algebra until university because they're too dumb, we try to teach them as early as possible while their brain is still nice and spongy. Same thing imo.
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Aug 25, 2022 01:04
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Reminds me of how the US raised the drinking age to 21 and now has more problems with binge drinking and alcoholism because people don't learn sensible drinking habits under adult supervision.
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Aug 25, 2022 02:11
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Slavvy posted:I'm of the opinion that discouraging teenagers from riding actual motorbikes, even if they're just 125/250, is counter productive because it makes them poo poo drivers and worse riders later on when they have to learn at a supposedly safe age. We don't keep people from learning algebra until university because they're too dumb, we try to teach them as early as possible while their brain is still nice and spongy. Same thing imo. Calculus and a couple of other advanced math courses were final year (grade 13, essentially A-levels) hs courses back when I was at school, which is now effectively 1st year uni. Which is pretty handy because you could use your advanced maths to look at the accident statistics in a place where teenagers have unfettered access to any kind of bike, and come to your own conclusion that they really ought not to.
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Aug 25, 2022 02:26
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Finger Prince posted:Calculus and a couple of other advanced math courses were final year (grade 13, essentially A-levels) hs courses back when I was at school, which is now effectively 1st year uni. Which is pretty handy because you could use your advanced maths to look at the accident statistics in a place where teenagers have unfettered access to any kind of bike, and come to your own conclusion that they really ought not to. Point out where I said I thought this was a good idea, I'll wait. Or perhaps redo your English reading and comprehension test, instead.
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Aug 25, 2022 02:46
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Slavvy posted:Point out where I said I thought this was a good idea, I'll wait. I turned my phone upside down and re-read your post, and turns out you didn't ictually say that, my bad. 
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Aug 25, 2022 05:12
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Meanwhile they've made the age at which you can start your car driving lessons 17 (from 18) with a pilot project about being allowed to actually be allowed at 17 with a parent next to you. Sigh. Yeah, you won't kill yourself nearly as easily in a car as on a bike, but you're a whole lot more times as likely to kill someone else and imho that's a bit more important to avoid. (that said, i don't want 16 year olds on 125cc bikes roaming around, they already do too much truly stupid stuff on their 50cc mopeds - just keep it that way).
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Aug 25, 2022 07:04
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Lol if you think a lower legal drinking age leads to parent supervised drinking. Teenagers aren't barred from riding, a large percentage of the population enters traffic at 15 on 50cc scooters or "dirtbikes".
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Aug 25, 2022 08:28
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LimaBiker posted:Meanwhile they've made the age at which you can start your car driving lessons 17 (from 18) with a pilot project about being allowed to actually be allowed at 17 with a parent next to you. Sigh. Yeah, you won't kill yourself nearly as easily in a car as on a bike, but you're a whole lot more times as likely to kill someone else and imho that's a bit more important to avoid. Again, this whole "In the EU" notion is silly, you can start A2 at 16 here.
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Aug 25, 2022 08:32
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Yes, but i think the point is that you have to offer A1, A2 and full power, the B (car) licence, C (light truck) etc etc etc. The age seems to be up to the member states themselves like you say.
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Aug 25, 2022 09:39
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LimaBiker posted:The new system: 11kW at 18, 35kW at 20, full power at 22, between each step you need to do the exams again This is also different here, if you have your licence for 2 years, you can get the next tier with a one day course, no exam needed. Also we have A1 at 16.
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Aug 25, 2022 09:50
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LimaBiker posted:Yes, but i think the point is that you have to offer A1, A2 and full power, the B (car) licence, C (light truck) etc etc etc. The age seems to be up to the member states themselves like you say. Yes, the types of licenses are equal across the EU, member states can offer additional licenses on top, but those aren't valid in other countries without ratification. For example a few countries let you get a license code on your B (car) license to ride 125cc, but only those same countries let you do that. If you have an A1 license, it is guranteed to be valid everywhere. The way to acquire the license is still entirely up to each country. So if italy wants, they can issue 13 year olds an A and CE license. (There are probably some other union rules that would make this impossible, but the principle applies to all license restrictions) SEKCobra fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 10:24
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In the UK, young people are actively discouraged from riding motorcycles by the ridiculous costs of jumping through all the hoops, not so much the actual hoops themselves (barring wait times for the exams, because, of course, bureaucracy). Have the hoops, just make it less stupidly expensive.
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Aug 25, 2022 10:34
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Steakandchips posted:In the UK, young people are actively discouraged from riding motorcycles by the ridiculous costs of jumping through all the hoops, not so much the actual hoops themselves (barring wait times for the exams, because, of course, bureaucracy). Licensing is expensive because of the associated courses. Here are some local prices so you guys can get a picture, EUR=USD right now anyway. For any license you need the following: 70 € First Aid Certification 35 € Medical Exam by a doctor 11 € (per attempt) Theoretical test 60 € (per attempt) Practical driving test 61 € License document So 237 € for any first time license-getter Plus you pay the following to the driving school: 500 € Moped (50cc) 1550 € B license (car) Can be cheaper by using your parents for part of the experience. 1250 € A license (bike) 2670 € A+B Can be cheaper by using your parents for part of the experience. 220 € (only for B) 2x Mandatory drive with an instructor for better fuel economy and safety, some time after you got your license. Safety training on a closed course including psychologist: 210 € A & B So total cost to only ride bikes: 1697 € If you wanted to get on a bigger bike ASAP, you'd need the following. 1697 € 350 € Upgrade training A1 > A2 60 € Practical driving test A1 > A2 61 € License document 350 € Upgrade training A2 > A 60 € Practical driving test A2 > A 61 € License document 2639 € for biggest bike possible all the time But this is really by your own design only if you decide you just can't wait. So an average youth would probably pay (If they don't get a moped first, AM is included with B): 237 € base cost 2670 € A+B 210 € Safety training A 210 € Safety training B 220 € 2x Mandatory drive B 350 € Upgrade training A2 > A 60 € Practical driving test A2 > A 61 € (second) license document 220 € 2x Mandatory drive 4238 € B with the A2 inbetween. You could really push it and go for AM>A1>A2>A + B, but I don't think anyone actually does that. SEKCobra fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 11:16
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It cost me (37) £120 for my CBT and £689 for the direct access course. I started the process in 2019. It was cheaper because I wasn't re-doing tests each time I went up an age band. No way I would have done it if it cost me that much overall and I probably wouldn't even have done the CBT with no hope of getting a big bike.
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Aug 25, 2022 13:54
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What’s the punishment for riding without a license in Sweden? My aunt and uncle were saying that the driving school is a bit of a racket, so if you go to take your test without doing the school (the instructor asks you I guess), you are unlikely to pass because your judged a lot harder and they want you to pay for the classes. What’s your take on that? Russian Bear fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 15:41
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Steakandchips posted:The shows are good indeed. I was really hoping it would eliminate the range anxiety I have. Like if these two can make it up the whole of South America, surely I'd be fine just bombing around New England. Nah, they have a van with a giant diesel generator, had Rivian install 2 phase chargers all up the length of South America, only stuck to major roads, and still ran out of battery at least once an episode. All that being said.. I still want a Livewire. I owe like a grand on my Road Glide, so once I'm done with that and this construction project maybe I'll grab one. I have to address the heating issue in my garage first. If it gets cold enough in there to completely kill my Ducati battery an EV probably wouldn't fare great, especially where they had such an issue with cold in LWU.
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Aug 25, 2022 16:05
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Russian Bear posted:What’s the punishment for riding without a license in Sweden? As for the first you're likely to get away with a fine first time, prison up to a year is possible though, also vehicle forfeiture. As for the second I've heard the same but can't speak for the truth of it. I took my exam ride last year in a group of eight riders, five of which obviously came from a riding school. Four people passed that day and two of those had practiced private only. I think it's probably more like the examiner might go for a more comprehensive traffic exam ride/drive with a candidate who hasn't been through a school since it's less certain what they've been taught privately while a student a school (previously known and well regarded by the examiner) deems ready for exam is very likely to have shown passable skills previously. A longer exam gives more opportunities to mess up so it's not entirely fair but that's my guess of what's going on rather than actual corruption. There might be some of that going on as well of course. Back when I was a student driver my parents taught me some bad things and failed to teach me other things I needed to know. A few sessions with a pro straightened me out. Same with the much more recent moto riding practice. Pros tend to get good at their job while amateur instructors are way more hit or miss.
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Aug 25, 2022 16:20
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https://www.revzilla.com/common-tre...kjRB2FLrcUyEQ6U I love what this bike looks like but on paper it looks like crap. 
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Aug 25, 2022 21:13
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Something between EU and US regs would be cool. There's no market for motorcycle training here outside track days because there is no requirement and people do not care. Locally there is only an 8 hour licensing course, that is the route most new riders do. If I wanted to travel an hour away I could do MSF intermediate or advanced. The training I have had has already saved me from some stuff. I would actually like to take more.
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Aug 25, 2022 21:40
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You can get a learner driver's license at 14 in Alberta.
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Aug 25, 2022 22:10
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SSH IT ZOMBIE posted:https://www.revzilla.com/common-tre...kjRB2FLrcUyEQ6U Wait until Honda releases their scrambler based on the rebel. https://www.visordown.com/news/new-bikes/honda-follows-cl500-patents-cl300-copyright-application They are going to sell a gazillion.
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Aug 25, 2022 22:14
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For BC you do a written test, then you do a learners with a bunch of rules for 6 months and take a skills test, then like a year later you do the real test for your full license, but if you do an accredited course they'll do the skills test and you can skip that middle part. Pretty good way of doing it, although it does mean that the courses are all expensive as hell
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Aug 25, 2022 23:19
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Opopanax posted:For BC you do a written test, then you do a learners with a bunch of rules for 6 months and take a skills test, then like a year later you do the real test for your full license, but if you do an accredited course they'll do the skills test and you can skip that middle part. Pretty good way of doing it, although it does mean that the courses are all expensive as hell That's probably just because it's BC. The courses are only a few hundred bucks in Ontario.
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Aug 25, 2022 23:21
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