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Seth Pecksniff posted:But I thought all were equal under communism Yeah. Everyone not from your province/city is equally hated. Except people from Henan. They get double. Even from other Henanren. Edit: well, this wasn't worth a new page.
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Aug 25, 2022 13:29
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Atopian posted:There several ways, they just all require stuff a rural person typically doesn't have. If only the government had developed the rural peoples regions a little too. But that's communist!
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Aug 25, 2022 13:29
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His Divine Shadow posted:I am not even chinese and I love mooncakes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ
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Aug 25, 2022 13:29
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His Divine Shadow posted:If only the government had developed the rural peoples regions a little too. But that's communist! Honestly they have developed them. Somewhat. But never enough to change the nature of the relationship between City and Not.
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Aug 25, 2022 13:30
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Atopian posted:Honestly they have developed them. Somewhat. But never enough to change the nature of the relationship between City and Not. They made high speed rail lines to some of them, which is cool. Though that doesn't solve the problem at all that, there just are no jobs outside of agriculture in so many of these places, and none of it pays enough to raise a family. So everyone works outside these places far away in cities where they're paid much less than locals while the grandparents raise their kids if they're lucky. There is a lot of rural Henan that just exists in this nothing state, people live there (a lot of people) but that's it. If there's been any other development it's very well hidden. Or when there is something good happening it's incredibly localized, something 99% of China's rural population doesn't get. I think this is a lot of people's misunderstanding of China, that because Shanghai is a nice place to live China in general is like that, without considering how a whole other half of the country lives. And how Shanghai and the other major, mostly eastern cities gets to be that way off of the exploitation of that other half. My idea is, remember those food boxes Shanghai (and mostly just Shanghai and those big, wealthy cities. I got it too because I live in like the nicest part of Zhengzhou but the rest of the city didnt. It's like means testing but where only the least needy get any aid) got during their COVID lockdown? Forget COVID lockdowns everyone should get those boxes, always. Worked for Rome it'll work for China. And not just Shanghai, literally everyone. Pay for it with actual commercial property taxes. There may not be absolute poverty by an incredibly tortured definition of it, but there are still people seriously affected by the instability of food prices. gently caress it China should actually be socialist instead of this exploitation but red bullshit. Massive mobilization of the party for the actual benefit of the working class. Also it would be great if their existing labor laws were actually enforced, maybe they could take the budget from the daily government texts telling me to buy specific products on jingdong and put it into that instead.
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Aug 25, 2022 14:37
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Ghostlight posted:Yeah you can, but it also doesn't help in getting residency - which, if it's anything like here, means you'll either be bound to an employer for several years on a working visa, or you'll be forced to leave the country periodically whenever your visa runs out (but not for too long because then you're not trying hard enough to live in the country!) It’s actually easier than in the us. You just need to pay taxes and stay out of trouble for 5 years or something and you can apply to be a citizen. Now would you want to work in Japan for 5 years?
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Aug 25, 2022 14:45
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BrainDance posted:They made high speed rail lines to some of them, which is cool. Though that doesn't solve the problem at all that, there just are no jobs outside of agriculture in so many of these places, and none of it pays enough to raise a family. So everyone works outside these places far away in cities where they're paid much less than locals while the grandparents raise their kids if they're lucky. Even in Shanghai basically the quality of the food box could be correlated with your income. It’s not like everyone got the same thing. Lots of poorer communities in Shanghai didn’t get them at all, and there were reports of community officials just embezzling the money for purchasing food. Or even if your community did get something, it was one box per apartment, so if you’re on working class wages in Shanghai and living in a worker’s dormitory or sharing a room in an apartment with a bunch of other people, then you’re not getting more than, like, 1 cucumber a week from the food box. I heard a joke here once: An old, poor worker went to hear a speech from a local party leader. The party leader said “Comrades, full socialism is on the horizon!” The worker didn’t know the meaning of “horizon” and went home to ask his son. His son said “Horizon means a place that, no matter how far you travel, you will never reach.”
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Aug 25, 2022 15:04
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:I get 3) potentially being hugely awkward for any regime that likes image control (see: prominent firings of Greek/Turkish government economists in the last decade), but could you please explain your reasoning on the judiciary? Genuinely curious. Have courts that are based on the rule of law that dont take into account face culture. Imagine a lawsuit against a fail son of the part? Or worse a lawsuit that bring attention to the party failing to do their job. remember when local governments have issue they will blame them on "temporary officials" For example the current legal system can punish you for "causing trouble" and "preventing harmony"
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Aug 25, 2022 15:47
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Living in Japan is fun, working there? Get hosed!
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Aug 25, 2022 16:27
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China has long since grown past the 1980s period where it needed to coercively divert agricultural surplus to fund coastal urban development The pivot began occurring in the mid 1990s, with revenue centralization in 1993, interregional equalization payments beginning in 1995, and general transfers growing rapidly afterwards - evolutionary reform to steadily increase inter-regional transfers has been consistent, reflecting a sustained political will to improve inland and rural conditions. It's important to appreciate the starting point in 1993 with Chinese central government budgets almost totally at the mercy of a handful of richer provinces (with, obviously, no reason to agree to steep intergovernmental transfers, and indeed fiercely resisted it), to how far it has come today where Chinese policy thinking can take the successful march of equalization payments amidst thoroughly cowed provincial governments as given. Rather, in terms of stylized facts, the main dynamics on contemporary China are 1) the sheer staggering size of the rural migrant labour force (more than a third of the entire working population - hard to compare outside of, say, the relationship between the Gulf states and Kerala), and 2) the threadbare Chinese welfare state, even in the rich cities. My sense is that lay observers may not appreciate how significant these are because their mental model remains the later Soviet Union, with its rigid movement controls in defiance of sustained urban labour shortages, and welfare transfers comparable to contemporaneous Western European counterparts. But that is not contemporary China, which has very much the opposite problems. On the former there is an increasing acknowledgement amongst Chinese policy thinking that migrant labour increasingly have to, and should, be able to settle down - of course progress on this has been evolutionary (or, less politely, anaemic) but lots of Chinese domestic reform is - but on the latter however, the center remains fiercely opposed to any hint of welfarism - this, probably, will be the next zone of contention in domestic Chinese politics, with people in richer provinces steadily developing expectations for a correspondingly generous social safety net. You know, welfare and immigration politics, familiar to all developed countries - except with a weaker welfare state, far more crushing austerity, a more sharply aging population, a heavier debt load, and of course proportionally far more migrants. Oh, and a dysfunctional and strained method of resolving political and social tensions. I've remarked in the other China thread that China is in many ways playing the Asian development model on fast speed and hard mode, and that's really especially true here. ronya fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 16:31
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ronya posted:except with a weaker welfare state, far more crushing austerity, a more sharply aging population, a heavier debt load, and of course proportionally far more migrants. Oh, and a dysfunctional and strained method of resolving political and social tensions. Yep the demographic bomb is just amazing. I can understand the thinking of "poo poo we have more people than we can feed, gently caress!" but the one child policy was such a heavy handed ill thought out idea. Same with the push to urbanize. Compressing a 100 years infrastructure, and industrialization into 30 years gave the country a huge amount of economic activity, and growth. I am sure for those that lived throught it seeing all the improvements happening must have been amazing but it seems the kids are not too happy. Also why did the goverment crack down on the education industry?
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Aug 25, 2022 17:22
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Ups_rail posted:Also why did the goverment crack down on the education industry? Critical thinking is incompatible with Xi Jinping thought.
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Aug 25, 2022 17:32
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All the countries with a cram school culture periodically have spasms of moral panic about it: South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. Once upon a time an authoritarian East Asian leader, in a surprising and sudden move, prohibited all for-profit private tutoring to mitigate unease over social inequality and the excessive expense of private tutoring putting poorer households at a disadvantage, as a measure widely acclaimed by media and domestic observers otherwise very occupied about worsening authoritarianism - but the year was 1980 and the leader was General Chun Doo-hwan of South Korea, a couple weeks past becoming military dictator. Very important priorities when defending the country from existential threats sufficient to justify seizing power. Really, attacking private tuition as a cheap populist gesture is an easy "look, my untrammelled power gives you the things you want!" trick. (the measures were never effectually enforced - estimates are that perhaps 80% of elementary school students in Korea were taking illegal private lessons by the 1990s - but remained resoundingly popular as a populist political gesture under subsequent civilian governments post-democratization until the Constitutional Court of Korea resolved the question in 2000 by abruptly declaring such a prohibition unconstitutional) ronya fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 25, 2022 |
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Aug 25, 2022 17:49
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Interesting. You d think countries would want to follow something like the german model where the more skilled/educated your work force is the more wealth they can generate. If china wishes to continue its development you d think they would put more on education and not less. Like after the pandemic it d make sense to educate/train more medical people
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Aug 25, 2022 18:06
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Ups_rail posted:Interesting. The whole idea is to do the opposite of the German model and not create different tiers of opportunity. The ideal (hopefully) is to invest more in public education. I mean, would you say someone against charter schools is anti-education?
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Aug 25, 2022 18:34
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It's not about education or learning, it's all about getting big number on this one test that determines your entire future (unless your family is rich, of course).
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Aug 25, 2022 18:35
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And the majority of Chinese kids live in the countryside, where no one cares about the education system at all. Most don't even go to high school. But what we're talking about are the private cram schools. They're a cancer on East Asia that shouldn't be there. You'd have to fundamentally change a lot of society and how parents view things to actually get rid of them though.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:39
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Grand Fromage posted:And the majority of Chinese kids live in the countryside, where no one cares about the education system at all. Most don't even go to high school. If some of the luster is coming off China maybe these will slow down a little in the US
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Aug 25, 2022 18:55
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eSports Chaebol posted:The whole idea is to do the opposite of the German model and not {b]create different tiers of opportunity.[/b] The ideal (hopefully) is to invest more in public education. I mean, would you say someone against charter schools is anti-education? Isnt that the current system in china with those entrance tests?
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Aug 25, 2022 18:55
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Ups_rail posted:Isnt that the current system in china with those entrance tests? Yeah you’re right; it already is pretty messed up. What I should’ve said is that they shouldn’t emulate the German pattern where you’re almost certainly going to be on the same track as your parents
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Aug 25, 2022 19:01
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eSports Chaebol posted:Yeah you’re right; it already is pretty messed up. What I should’ve said is that they shouldn’t emulate the German pattern where you’re almost certainly going to be on the same track as your parents your right, i was thinking more along the lines of having a more educated/skilled work force. something thats always stuck with me from one of my more crazy highschool teachers was that the greatest resource a civilization has is its people. and bunch of poor sick and stupid people cant build anything. to frame this beyond education If china wants to be more than place that does cheap labor it needs to build up to higher teir higher value add stuff. I read some comment the other day that if china took taiwan and the TSMC plant they dont really have the work force to run the place.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:14
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Costco had these 'Lava' mooncakes that I got. I think lava is just code for 'not dry like the desert'. They aare pretty good, and kind of goopy in the middle. 
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Aug 25, 2022 19:50
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Ups_rail posted:If china wants to be more than place that does cheap labor it needs to build up to higher teir higher value add stuff. I read some comment the other day that if china took taiwan and the TSMC plant they dont really have the work force to run the place. Yeah. Lack of education is the main thrust of the book Invisible China. Basically that China has already gone through the period where they can develop by throwing everyone into factories and needs to transition to other economic engines that require education, but China has by far the lowest level of education of any comparable country. South Korea is a contrasting example, they reached this same point decades ago but had something like three times the education level, so were able to transition successfully. The government's decision to forget about rural China means they are way behind where they need to be, and they're most likely out of time to fix it. The "China will collapse any day now!" crowd are (probably) wrong, but the reality is China is in serious trouble and there's a good chance they do not have the means to deal with it. Even if they wanted to--it's not like you can educate everyone overnight, it's inherently a multi decade project. The boom has been over for years, the question is if they can muddle through and keep things functional or not.
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Aug 25, 2022 20:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. Lack of education is the main thrust of the book Invisible China. Basically that China has already gone through the period where they can develop by throwing everyone into factories and needs to transition to other economic engines that require education, but China has by far the lowest level of education of any comparable country. South Korea is a contrasting example, they reached this same point decades ago but had something like three times the education level, so were able to transition successfully. The government's decision to forget about rural China means they are way behind where they need to be, and they're most likely out of time to fix it. what if they tried communism
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Aug 25, 2022 21:59
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Ups_rail posted:Have courts that are based on the rule of law that dont take into account face culture. Imagine a lawsuit against a fail son of the part? Or worse a lawsuit that bring attention to the party failing to do their job. Thanks. My intuition is on net unbiased (or at least, seemingly unbiased) courts would be a gain for regime legitimacy, but frankly I'm not familiar enough with face culture to say that with any certainty. Regarding bullshit offenses like "preventing harmony," it seems like the sort of thing you could accomplish with seemingly innocuous quality-of-life laws (like loitering and the like in the US) that are enforced arbitrarily. Shove the bias downstream to law enforcement and away from the courts themselves.
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Aug 25, 2022 22:17
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Grand Fromage posted:The "China will collapse any day now!" crowd are (probably) wrong, but the reality is China is in serious trouble and there's a good chance they do not have the means to deal with it. Even if they wanted to--it's not like you can educate everyone overnight, it's inherently a multi decade project. The boom has been over for years, the question is if they can muddle through and keep things functional or not. I lean more into the china is hosed camp for a few reason. There is alot of money in china, thats wanting to flee in order to avoid cultural revolution number two. (if that happens) They need to import both food and energy. Correct me if I m wrong but will people be happy when pork is off the menu. Governance....yeah DJ_Mindboggler posted:Thanks. My intuition is on net unbiased (or at least, seemingly unbiased) courts would be a gain for regime legitimacy, but frankly I'm not familiar enough with face culture to say that with any certainty. Regarding bullshit offenses like "preventing harmony," it seems like the sort of thing you could accomplish with seemingly innocuous quality-of-life laws (like loitering and the like in the US) that are enforced arbitrarily. Shove the bias downstream to law enforcement and away from the courts themselves. In past threads people with much greater experience explained face culture. But a really good example was an article about a not released movie called "empires of the deep" The director of the star wars movie "the empire strikes back" was hired to help with this movie. It was basically financed by a billionaire property mogul. So imagine this you have unlimited funds you wanna make a movie thats on pair with hollywood so you hire hollywood people to come do their thing. So the people you hire, tell you how to make the movie. For example a character dies, and a magic pill is used to bring them back. The hollywood dude tells the billionaire "yeah that removes tension and creates narrative problems so instead of pill lets make it a very risk ritual and we can bring aries back that way" Cue face culture, your the boss, you have a Ferrari (no he literally took him the parking garage and showed him) so to be corrected in any way is slight and requires throwing a tantrum.
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Aug 25, 2022 22:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. Lack of education is the main thrust of the book Invisible China. Basically that China has already gone through the period where they can develop by throwing everyone into factories and needs to transition to other economic engines that require education, but China has by far the lowest level of education of any comparable country. South Korea is a contrasting example, they reached this same point decades ago but had something like three times the education level, so were able to transition successfully. The government's decision to forget about rural China means they are way behind where they need to be, and they're most likely out of time to fix it. You say this yet you propose no face-saving action  curious
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Aug 25, 2022 22:46
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:Thanks. My intuition is on net unbiased (or at least, seemingly unbiased) courts would be a gain for regime legitimacy, but frankly I'm not familiar enough with face culture to say that with any certainty. Regarding bullshit offenses like "preventing harmony," it seems like the sort of thing you could accomplish with seemingly innocuous quality-of-life laws (like loitering and the like in the US) that are enforced arbitrarily. Shove the bias downstream to law enforcement and away from the courts themselves. The whole idea of independent judiciaries is that individual (and corporate) rights trump political considerations, for better and for worse. This can be good (I have a right to express dissent) and bad (government fat cats can’t tell me not to dump toxic waste into the river). In either case, it’s explicitly against the governing philosophy in China
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Aug 25, 2022 23:27
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re: chinas water issues https://twitter.com/PaddyFok/status/1562706121957056513
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Aug 26, 2022 00:26
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Vietnam is kicking rear end at the educated bilingual talent working abroad thing (and also the technically not slave labor working abroad thing)
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Aug 26, 2022 00:44
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Multiquote is hard, so: Re: food boxes for everyone, always: yes, this would be a great idea. Remove some of the .let serious problems for the worst-off people. Re: educational reform: as noted elsewhere, the private education sector in China was a sewer. It needed to be fixed or carefully demolished, but instead they blew it up.
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Aug 26, 2022 01:01
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peanut posted:Vietnam is kicking rear end at the educated bilingual talent working abroad thing (and also the technically not slave labor working abroad thing) I keep thinking it would be cool to have some kinda movie where the plot is the villian is going around reviving the preserved bodies of the old communist country leaders like mao, ho, kim, and lenin. I remember a newsweek article about china's economy from 2002, and comments were something like "okay politics are sleeping everyone make money!" and a remark about how many people are going to see mao, "yeah they are going to make sure he s still dead"
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Aug 26, 2022 02:36
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peanut posted:Vietnam is kicking rear end at the educated bilingual talent working abroad thing (and also the technically not slave labor working abroad thing) Like most countries with mass temporary labor migration, Vietnam has serious problems with debt bondage and sending workers into forced labor. Their policies even require workers to put up bonds to work abroad, so it’s not like it’s all on the destination side. Consequently something around 15% of Vietnamese workers in Taiwan and 10% in Japan are likely victims of forced labor. Better than a lot of their peers, but hardly kicking rear end.
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Aug 26, 2022 10:00
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A company in Japan just got in trouble because video came out of their employees beating the poo poo out of their Vietnamese guest worker for no particular reason.
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Aug 26, 2022 10:41
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Gabriel Grub posted:A company in Japan just got in trouble because video came out of their employees beating the poo poo out of their Vietnamese guest worker for no particular reason. "Got in trouble" or "some guy in a suit will have to bow and apologize publicly"?
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Aug 26, 2022 10:46
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3D Megadoodoo posted:"Got in trouble" or "some guy in a suit will have to bow and apologize publicly"? Is there another kind of trouble in Japan?
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Aug 26, 2022 11:14
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Atopian posted:Is there another kind of trouble in Japan? I don't know. Hanging? I know they love to hang people. I'd assume there's something between having to say you're sorry and being hung.
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Aug 26, 2022 11:15
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I don't know. Hanging? I know they love to hang people. I'd assume there's something between having to say you're sorry and being hung. Obligatory: "when I was in Japan I never had to apologise for being hung!"
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Aug 26, 2022 11:30
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Atopian posted:Obligatory: "when I was in Japan I never had to apologise for being hung!" I've never in my life had to apologise for being hung. For I have a small penis, you see
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Aug 26, 2022 11:52
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I don't know. Hanging? I know they love to hang people. I'd assume there's something between having to say you're sorry and being hung. Obligatory Gibbis Pedantry: "hanged"
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