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I've never heard the word "race" applied to non-humans or non-sapient fantasy creatures in my life.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:48
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| # ? May 14, 2024 00:15 |
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I saw a horse race once
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Aug 25, 2022 18:51
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Yeah, the only time I've heard "dog" and "race" together it's been about dogs racing.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:51
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Why do they have to be greyhounds anyhow? Why aren't the whitehounds out there running?
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Aug 25, 2022 18:53
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Try putting "dog breed" into google translate for French, German, nordic languages, Spanish (etc?) for a surprise
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Aug 25, 2022 18:56
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Spanish uses raza both for human racial backgrounds and to talk about dog breeds. Considering the Spanish arguably invented racism, that's a fair cop.
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Aug 25, 2022 18:57
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Baron von Eevl posted:that's a fair cop. No such thing
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Aug 25, 2022 18:59
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Try putting "dog breed" into google translate for French, German, nordic languages, Spanish (etc?) for a surprise Now hang on, you never said this would involve other languages.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:25
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On the other hand Americans call people from other countries "aliens" so it's a bit of a mixed bag.
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Aug 25, 2022 19:42
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:I just now realized that since Americans say dog breeds and not dog races, you might've been missing a key part to why other people get so upset about using the word race for people. What? That's not an American thing (I'm Australian). Never in my life have I ever even seen someone refer to dog breeds as "races" until your post. Are you a native English speaker? A "dog race" is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_racing
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Aug 25, 2022 22:31
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Captain Splendid posted:On the other hand Americans call people from other countries "aliens" so it's a bit of a mixed bag. Space is just another country imo
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Aug 25, 2022 22:43
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Wait but when I go see a dog race it's nothing but greyhounds. Am I missing something?
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Aug 25, 2022 23:19
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Hyperlynx posted:What? That's not an American thing (I'm Australian). Never in my life have I ever even seen someone refer to dog breeds as "races" until your post. Are you a native English speaker? Sure, make it native English speakers. I focused on america since, ya know, "place where they commonly talk about people being different races". Of course I'm extremely esl and everyday my english is getting worse with no end in sight. Woe and ashes, we shall be payed. Sooo... fun fact: a subset of 2nd language speakers have our impressions of the word "race" fundamentally coloured by how that word is used in our languages, ie exclusively(?) to dog breeds and by-and-for dog breeders. And by the kind of locals who then also apply it to people. And that enormity of difference between the languages hit me with some force earlier
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Aug 25, 2022 23:24
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Are you arguing that there are languages that use their local word for race to refer to dog breeds but not human racial backgrounds? It would seem then that the local word is for "dog breeds" and not "race." I understand languages some languages, for example Spanish, use the same word for both, but it seems like you're saying something else.
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Aug 26, 2022 00:05
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I hope it's not a surprise that our languages did use the word in the same way as the spanish right up until about 1945 right? E. Also that local racist still use it that way and that's how the interpretation gets perpetuated. Look, I'm saying that a number of people who has English as a learned second language always do a double take whenever we hear or see a native English speaker use that word, and that I had a sudden realisation that we have wildly different associations as to what that word, with different but unmistakably similar spellings and pronounciations, represents. And how it had been staring me in the face for decades. The subconcious unease with the apperently universal racism from English speakers talking about people as different dog breeds. The unthinking false equivalence of one word that doesn't actually carry the same associations across european languages. The sudden realisation. The aha-moment. That's what I'm talking about. I can't believe I only just now figured that out. ThisIsJohnWayne has a new favorite as of 00:45 on Aug 26, 2022 |
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Aug 26, 2022 00:15
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Sure, make it native English speakers. I focused on america since, ya know, "place where they commonly talk about people being different races". Oh, gotcha. Whew, I thought I was going nuts/had a weird Americanised dialect without realising.
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Aug 26, 2022 00:20
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Sure, make it native English speakers. I focused on america since, ya know, "place where they commonly talk about people being different races". Do you think only Americans refer to races? Because you'll be in for a surprise if you look up just about any other country in the world.
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Aug 26, 2022 00:46
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In English, there is the (still lingering, scientifically discredited and biologically meaningless) concept of different "races" of humans, as in Black people and white people and Asian people being different "races". But not different "breeds" of human. Anglophones also would not say that labradors and German shepherds are "races" of dogs, they would always say they're different "breeds". The two words are not at all interchangeable in common usage, excluding some enormously racist person deliberately saying "breed". And, for that matter, the word in English is "racism" rather than "breedism".
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Aug 26, 2022 01:43
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On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
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Aug 26, 2022 01:47
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Hyperlynx posted:The two words are not at all interchangeable in common usage, excluding some enormously racist person deliberately saying "breed".
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Aug 26, 2022 02:23
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Barnum Brown Shoes posted:On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life In that context, "race" means "species" (as in "the human race"). Though it did discuss the developments of what is essentially breeds into seperate species
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Aug 26, 2022 05:50
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Columbo is great! I mean, I've heard that before, but I finally experienced it myself by watching three episodes in a row.
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Aug 26, 2022 06:40
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The biggest twist in the entire show for me was the director of the third one/first TV episode. I noticed the direction was amazing, and I just couldn't believe this TV show had that caliber of production. No wonder people love it! I'm not exactly a stident of film so it had to be pretty good for me to actively notice. It was, of course, directed by a young Steven Spielberg.
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Aug 26, 2022 06:56
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Hyperlynx posted:In that context, "race" means "species" (as in "the human race"). Though it did discuss the developments of what is essentially breeds into seperate species Yep! Just wasn't to give an example
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Aug 26, 2022 15:22
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Scarodactyl posted:The biggest twist in the entire show for me was the director of the third one/first TV episode. There's a really great episode a little later where Fisher Stevens effectively plays Steven Spielberg, no-good murderer.
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Aug 26, 2022 15:28
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I hadn't really thought about it, but Danish also only uses "race" about animals, at least since WW2. Ethnicity is the current term for thinly veiled racism. (we do use the word racism)
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Aug 26, 2022 15:56
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Generally in English, at least in American English, "race" implies a set of biological differences that can be easily ascertained by things like skin color, hair color/texture, and the ways certain soft tissues in the face are formed, while "ethnicity" refers to cultural elements. Race as an idea really only dates back a few hundred years, things like how the Spanish thought of native people in the Americas and how the English thought of the Irish. They believed there were definite biological differences between themselves and this other group that made the other less than human. Ethnicity would be like how ancient Romans believed themselves superior to other cultures. They didn't think there was a fundamental biological difference between a Roman and someone else, but they thought their culture was inherently superior. You could be born a Roman or you could learn to become one, but the English thought an Irishman could never be human. Ethnicity is a social construct of course, while race is just plain made up. Racists believe "race" is a real thing, whether or not they hold animosity towards "other races" or think of themselves as superior, they ultimately believe they are fundamentally biologically different.
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Aug 26, 2022 16:14
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I didn't figure it out but
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Aug 26, 2022 17:41
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I don't think Ice Cube was living at home then
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Aug 26, 2022 18:09
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Baron von Eevl posted:Generally in English, at least in American English, "race" implies a set of biological differences that can be easily ascertained by things like skin color, hair color/texture, and the ways certain soft tissues in the face are formed, while "ethnicity" refers to cultural elements. Race as an idea really only dates back a few hundred years, things like how the Spanish thought of native people in the Americas and how the English thought of the Irish. They believed there were definite biological differences between themselves and this other group that made the other less than human. Ethnicity would be like how ancient Romans believed themselves superior to other cultures. They didn't think there was a fundamental biological difference between a Roman and someone else, but they thought their culture was inherently superior. You could be born a Roman or you could learn to become one, but the English thought an Irishman could never be human. good post, just to add: people are unironically talking about third & fourth generation "ethnic danes" (which obviously means brown/black danes, but shush) 
Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 18:17 on Aug 26, 2022 |
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Aug 26, 2022 18:11
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Why would you worry about the ethnicity of a dog
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Aug 26, 2022 18:13
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Gaius Marius posted:Why would you worry about the ethnicity of a dog Because they wouldn't be pure in their breed unless you make sure. Purebred if you will. Or Cleanrace in Swedish.
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Aug 26, 2022 18:26
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Gaius Marius posted:Why would you worry about the ethnicity of a dog Spending countless hours of debate to determine if the taco bell chihuahua is racist or just annoying.
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Aug 26, 2022 18:27
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Beepers have been commercially available since the early 70s. And were niche, but definitely something most people could recognize by the late 80s.
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Aug 26, 2022 22:48
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So has your mom. Sorry. Just kidding
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Aug 26, 2022 23:14
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tbf it took me a while to recognize their mom as well
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Aug 26, 2022 23:53
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Barnum Brown Shoes posted:Yep! Just wasn't to give an example Oh, sorry! For some reason I thought it was supposed to be a counterexample.
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Aug 27, 2022 00:04
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No worries
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Aug 27, 2022 00:17
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Because they wouldn't be pure in their breed unless you make sure. Purebred if you will. Or Cleanrace in Swedish. Dog breed = Hunderasse Humans arbitrarily divided by phenotype, by racists = Menschen verschiedener Rasse (humans of different race). See also "Herrenrasse". Obviously, not en vogue to say since 1945 Racism = Rassismus (still in use, referring to the above) Current PC way in Germany to refer to people of different phenotypes: various euphemisms like "born to Arabian parents", "biologically German" (<- racists love this one), "of Syrian descent" So, the initial issue was you being confused because Swedes (presumably) only ever use "race/Rasse/the Swedish word with the same root" for animals, while English uses the word for humans still, but usually it's in a racist context anyway, so it's a wash?
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Aug 27, 2022 12:39
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Well then, thank you for posting that clarification to what was confusing to some, since I didn't. The entire point; words have emotional associations. While technically knowing a language for decades, I personally had an unanalysed bias to what I associated the word race (tr. ras) with, and had never actively thought about how that link doesn't exist in English. I know other europeans have the same association from experience, and at times it unknowingly affects discussions with native English speakers. I thought it was interesting. Is there anything left that's unclear? I hope not.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:33
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