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Virgil Vox posted:I've been thinking about this statement a lot, and wouldn't it almost be the opposite and easier than ever? don't look for how things are wrong. look for how they could be true. then see if the things that are required would make the theory true obtain in reality. then think about if the texts may be written with a little bit of hyperbole for marketing sake. look for the fundamental wisdom of the position and take that with you. the fact that you're inclined to say "nah that's bs i can zoom with a teacher" indicates youre probably not picking up what they're laying down
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Jul 28, 2022 17:38
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Pollyanna posted:I enjoy the process quite a bit when I am free of the expectations, emotional baggage, and ingrained conceptions that lead to the disparity and doubt we’re all familiar with. I enjoy it quite a bit less when I am not free of the aforementioned. One year I tried making music focused on the outcomes. I got attached to my goals and felt pretty bad when I didn't make them. The year after that I focused on the process instead. It was much easier, more fun, and the outcomes took care of themselves.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:02
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It’s totally possible for an “overly corrupt” world to hinder the possibility of enlightenment. If nothing is an uncompounded phenomena, then everything is a phenomena compounded with everything. Therefore, everything else informs your existence. If enough of everything else is considered corrupt, it can be said to inform your existence in a corrupt manner to a certain degree. So it’s not hard to imagine such a case where the degree is high. Way I see it? Take as many baths as you want, you’ll still smell awful in the morning if you sleep in a pigsty. My guess is that that’s why there’s so much thought about how individuals relate to society and whatever responsibilities or duties they may have to it. Kind of like your conscience telling you to clean your room.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:13
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Pollyanna posted:I enjoy the process quite a bit when I am free of the expectations, The Great Way is paved for those who have no preferences*. -3rd Chinese Patriarch of Zen *sometimes also translated as expectations.
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Jul 28, 2022 18:31
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Jul 28, 2022 18:48
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LuckyCat posted:The Great Way is paved for those who have no preferences*. -3rd Chinese Patriarch of Zen quote:Heaven is long, Earth enduring. Long and enduring because they do not exist for themselves. Therefore the Sage steps back, but is always in front; stays outside, but is always within. Not exactly the tradition that belongs in this thread, but a relevant and evocative school of thought anyway. (Like I said, though, this is all easier said than done. But there are options.)
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Jul 28, 2022 19:10
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Achmed Jones posted:don't look for how things are wrong. look for how they could be true. then see if the things that are required would make the theory true obtain in reality. then think about if the texts may be written with a little bit of hyperbole for marketing sake. look for the fundamental wisdom of the position and take that with you. the fact that you're inclined to say "nah that's bs i can zoom with a teacher" indicates youre probably not picking up what they're laying down I'm unsure how to answer this, I will think on it Perhaps another why to word my original statement then: Even I, a westerner in a more or less christian society have access to learning and then practicing the Dhamma, whereas that was likely not possible 100 years ago. However these things ebb n flow with time and in 100 additional years that may not be the case. Is that what your saying?
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Jul 28, 2022 20:05
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Current technology makes the issue of enlightenment in our current time very polarized. Phones, TV, and the internet can provided an unprecedented amount of extremely vivid attachments and aversions to consume. But for those that want off the merry-go-round, those same technologies can be used to find dharma talks, local temples, book a retreat, order books. It is both the best of times and the worst of times. The youtube algorithms, when you search for enough buddhist content, also shows a ton of advaita vedanta and stoicism content too. There are a lot of people going down a similar path who would not have been able to just 50 years ago.
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Jul 28, 2022 21:15
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Virgil Vox posted:However these things ebb n flow with time and in 100 additional years that may not be the case. Is that what your saying? no, there is nothing temporally bound in what i'm saying
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Jul 28, 2022 22:49
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Blendy posted:I wanted to add one of my favorite Buddist anecdotes about the nature of compassion in Buddism that always made me laugh. A Buddhist monk and a young child who is a ward of the temple are out for a walk. It's a long walk and eventually, the child has to urinate. So the child starts to leave the road to go behind a tree. The monk asks the child, "what are you doing?' and the child replies 'I am going to pee, I need to pee.' The monk gets upset and tells the child 'You can not pee on that tree, the tree has Buddha's nature you cannot foul it.' The child obeys and they continue their walk. The child then spots a stream and begins to dash off to pee in it. The monk again stops the child, explaining the stream also has the Buddha's nature so he can not foul the stream. So again they begin their walk until the child spots a mound of rocks and again dashes off clearly in pain. Again the monk stops and scolds him explaining that the rocks, and the grass, the dirt, and all of nature have the Buddha's nature and cannot be spoiled. So the child walks over and pees on the monk. I’m working through Walking an Uncommon Path and this is no longer funny. It is now hilarious.
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Jul 28, 2022 23:01
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Pollyanna posted:I enjoy the process quite a bit when I am free of the expectations, emotional baggage, and ingrained conceptions that lead to the disparity and doubt we’re all familiar with. I enjoy it quite a bit less when I am not free of the aforementioned. I remember when you said about some kind of sadness when you considered that there may be only a small audience for your music. resonated with me lol it's an existential thing I wrestle with when playing music. sometimes I play things that I really loved, and my immediate reaction is to try to hit record on the laptop and play it again. maybe I'll be able to share it with the world and get some ego validation, that's the story my ego wove together in an instant about it. it really strikes at the heart of something.. something about the fact that I am missing the full beauty of what I played by grasping toward recording it so I can keep it forever. still working on that one. there is an obvious wisdom in trying to just embrace the unique moment as it is and make the most of it in it's fleeting nature, but the grasping doesn't go away
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Jul 29, 2022 12:12
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Sometimes I wish the ego just wasn’t a thing. When the world is not about me and I can simply step back and observe, those are the times that life is actually pretty cool. Still full of the same fascinating things, still full of the same hosed-up poo poo, but the latter doesn’t cut as deeply. Like looking at an ant farm. It’s rare and I’ve never been able to put a name to it, but it’s a refuge of sorts, so I take it when I can get it. Not necessarily the best way to live, depending on your values. But merely observing has never done harm, right? Hell, I think things started going wrong in life when I had to be a person and act in the world instead of just be a passive observer. Worst part is, I’m the one that made me be a person, by starting to doubt and criticize myself 
Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 29, 2022 |
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Jul 29, 2022 14:12
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Pollyanna posted:Not necessarily the best way to live, depending on your values. But merely observing has never done harm, right? You can still act without an ego. It could be argued that you will act better without one. At the very least, you would be acting without some selfish desire that might compromise doing what is best. Not every situation is one where you are going to get some clear cut benefit to yourself. At a more technical level, there are meditative practices to cultivate a "witness" mindset. One where you are a completely dispassionate observer. However, this isn't really useful for actually going about in the world, and it isn't really a Buddhist practice. The calming meditations are supposed to work with insight meditations where you work with some question. The classic example is Zen koans, where the point is to wrestle with something till you get a eureka moment. There are others that more directly work with "who am I" "where am I", "when am I", etc. And the 5 precepts can be used for insight too, if you question the motivation behind any opportunity that comes up to kill, steal, do sexual misconduct, lie and gossip, or get intoxicated. Who is really benefiting from doing these actions? How are others harmed by these actions? And at another level, can you ever really be a mere observer? Everything depends on causes and conditions. Even the act of just observing has an effect. And others seeing you observe the situation has an effect on them. Unfortunately, no matter how messed up the world may seem, there is no way to just observe it and not be part of it.
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Jul 29, 2022 18:31
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Christ said it well when he said “be in the world but not of the world.” I also think about Krishna urging Arjuna to do what needs to be done that is his worldly duty, but not identifying with the actor that is doing. We all practically have to live our lives but I believe we can still work toward being identified with our consciousness and not the thinking and doing actor.
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Jul 29, 2022 21:27
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Sounds like it’s not really about “I”, in the end and in a big enough scope. I’ll think on that.
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Jul 30, 2022 16:44
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Aug 7, 2022 23:18
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Pollyanna posted:Edit: oh yeah. I invite any and all comments and thoughts on the matter. It helps to get input.
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Aug 8, 2022 00:04
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Aug 8, 2022 01:01
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So I would like to continue learning lessons from the truths and the path and applying them in a practical manner. I’ve been reading the book linked in the OP and I can see why it’s good, but not necessarily recommended for newbies. In which case, what is an appropriate “starting point”? The path does not strike me as linear, there are about as many teachings and advisors as there are people on the planet, and a few of the precepts already match up with contemporary western society (don’t kill, lie, or cheat). I can watch YouTube lectures and read Wikipedia articles all day, and I certainly learn a lot from them, but that isn’t necessarily the same as right speech, right action, right effort, right livelihood, and right mindfulness. These are qualities I would like to improve in myself, and I would like to find out how. Nessus posted:The nuance I have taken on board from conversations is that the issue isn't "I would like to do a thing that I'm good and skillful at." That's natural. It's okay to like or dislike things, but it's a question of becoming attached to those likes or dislikes. Is it attachment if you want to be good and skillful at something? That implies a desire to reach a certain state. Which as far as I can tell is not wrong in and of itself…the problem would be stressing over it and whether it works out or not. Does that make any sense? Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 17:53
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Pollyanna posted:So I would like to continue learning lessons from the truths and the path and applying them in a practical manner. I’ve been reading the book linked in the OP and I can see why it’s good, but not necessarily recommended for newbies. In which case, what is an appropriate “starting point”? The path does not strike me as linear, there are about as many teachings and advisors as there are people on the planet, and a few of the precepts already match up with contemporary western society (don’t kill, lie, or cheat). As for the attachment question it's hard for me to say in detail. I can say that there seems to be a distinction between "wanting something" in the sense of "given free choice I would take mushrooms over onions," or "Yes, I think I will pursue the guitar instead of painting, because I like playing the guitar more and sound moves me more than color." And wanting something in the sense of grasping, clinging, and attachment.
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Aug 9, 2022 18:02
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A way to think about attachment is that you are sort of merging with something. That is isn't merely holding on to something, but that it becomes a part of "you". With a music example, it would be that you define yourself as a musician to such a degree, that you suffer if you hit a dry spell or writers block. When your very sense of self is so wrapped up in making music that if you fail to do so it becomes an existential crisis, with all the negatives that come with an existential crisis. In our modern world, we can see this very much with consumerism. People can get extremely upset if they cannot get some item, because they have so integrated buying and owning stuff into their personal identity that failing to do so starts to unravel the sense of self they have built. And this can even apply to practicing Buddhism. You can become so attached to practicing Buddhism a certain way that, if you stumble, or find out it is not a path that works for you, or you find out your teacher has some failing, you suffer as suffering is defined in Buddhism. In short, the cross over is when you go from that point where you say to yourself "it would be nice to have X", to where you start saying "my goal in life is to get X". Then it is a short trip to either yourself or convincing others to lie, to steal, or to kill, to get X. And this is a middle path, because the flip side can work the same way. This isn't about denying yourself things, because you can move into that space of defining yourself as one who abstains from something. Beowulfs_Ghost fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 19:12
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Pollyanna posted:So I would like to continue learning lessons from the truths and the path and applying them in a practical manner. I’ve been reading the book linked in the OP and I can see why it’s good, but not necessarily recommended for newbies. In which case, what is an appropriate “starting point”? The path does not strike me as linear, there are about as many teachings and advisors as there are people on the planet, and a few of the precepts already match up with contemporary western society (don’t kill, lie, or cheat). i recommend sitting down and staring at a wall for a couple days.
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Aug 9, 2022 19:48
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:i recommend sitting down and staring at a wall for a couple days. Always good advice. Or, another way I've heard it put... Don't just do something. Sit There. Any way, I just finished Under the Bohdi Tree, a collection of talks by Buddhadasa on dependent co-arising. Mostly practical sort of stuff, without the heavy metaphysical talk that some of these subjects can wander in to. And I was prompted to post this because, as many of these talks were given to western audiences, and a few examples were given through a Christian lens, one of the last chapters specifically mentioned... LuckyCat posted:Christ said it well when he said “be in the world but not of the world.” But if anyone wants an easy read that explains dependent co-arising, from lots of different angles, and without going right into "the 12 links", or serious takes on reincarnation, or that makes Buddhist cause-and-effect more complicated than it should be, I recommend it.
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Aug 21, 2022 02:33
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Finally getting through the back of The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching. The anecdote of the Buddha and Ananda caring for the dysentery-stricken monk on page 165 was surprisingly moving - and I suppose if that is the true spirit of 'the sangha' then we definitely have it here  Does it have a source in the sutras?
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Aug 26, 2022 06:31
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Nessus posted:Finally getting through the back of The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching. The anecdote of the Buddha and Ananda caring for the dysentery-stricken monk on page 165 was surprisingly moving - and I suppose if that is the true spirit of 'the sangha' then we definitely have it here another story that I like and feels related to this one: One day, Ananda and the Buddha were sitting alone on a hill together, overlooking the plains of the Ganges. Having served as the Buddha’s attendant for many years, Ananda often shared his reflections and insights with him. This afternoon, Ananda spoke. “Dear Respected Teacher,” Ananda said. “It seems to me that half of the spiritual life is good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship.” I imagine that Ananda said this with some level of confidence for praising the merits of spiritual friendship. But the Buddha quickly corrected him: “Not so, Ananda! Not so, Ananda!” Ouch! Probably Ananda wasn’t expecting such a stern rebuke. But the Buddha was offering a powerful teaching. He continued, “This is the entire spiritual life, Ananda, that is, good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship. When a monk has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.” Good friends don't leave friends lying in their own diarrhea! Seems clear!
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Aug 26, 2022 22:23
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sat with this for a bit today and I like it more the reason buddha's answer is what it is, is that from the bodhisattva perspective all suffering sentient beings are wracked with a dysentery of consciousness called dukkha, samsara, maya, all those types of names. it's very simple; when someone is suffering you help them. the dysentery patient needs medicine and to stop drinking dirty water. the sentient being doesn't need medicine. it can stop its suffering in an instant of self-recognition if the circumstances are right. the eightfold path is among other things a sort of guide for manifesting the right circumstances. or for recognizing them. to tie into the dysentery analogy in closing, for getting one's poo poo together. the monk or yogi's vow of abstinence is called in sanskrit, 'bramacharya' , and IANA Sanskrit scholar but the second definition of bramacharya in the language appears to be: CONTINENCE 
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Aug 27, 2022 01:48
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forgive me for maybe a simple or ignorant question. does rebirth refer to the process of generating a new you with each thought?
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Aug 27, 2022 11:57
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no
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Aug 27, 2022 12:23
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ram dass in hell posted:sat with this for a bit today and I like it more Thus it was posted Crazy Cloud sat in poo poo all day
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Aug 27, 2022 19:02
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echinopsis posted:forgive me for maybe a simple or ignorant question.
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Aug 27, 2022 19:16
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Unrelated question for me, a local herbivore: Are there any good dharma talks that it would be easy to get onto my phone for listening while walking? I liked Plum Village but all of their dharma talks seem to require you to have the app open and in video mode, so it's not great for what I'm going for.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:20
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Eckart Tolle is always soothing listening for things like that to me, and for other podcast listening I like the Be Here Now podcast, though it’s not dharma talks very often- sometimes it’s interviews, sometimes a classic Ram Dass lecture, etc etc
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Aug 27, 2022 21:03
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echinopsis posted:forgive me for maybe a simple or ignorant question. Yes, it can. In my opinion, this is the most useful way to think of it. Especially with all the other concepts of Buddhism, like the 5 aggregates, the 12 links, no-self, the 6 consciousnesses. Every sense contact is followed by some kind of consciousness, and then the birth of awareness and craving, and its eventual end or death. And how you handled that bit of awareness conditions your next round of awareness. There is an argument for the utility of taking rebirth in the "transmigration of the soul" sense, in that it can be useful for maintaining ethical behavior for one's entire life. Otherwise, if you think this is your only life, and it doesn't look like you will hit full enlightenment, then just go hog wild with sensual pleasures and causing harm. But life after death isn't something the average person really has direct knowledge of, so by default it is a matter of metaphysics. It is fun to think about, but don't let it become an impediment to improving yourself here and now. And this can go both ways. As in giving up and devoting your life to pure hedonism. But also the idea that you are a thousand life times away from meaningful realization. After all, if you find yourself born a human in this degenerate age, and you get on this global computer network of depravity, yet find yourself wanting to learn about Buddhism, you must be pretty far down the path already. Nessus posted:Unrelated question for me, a local herbivore: Are there any good dharma talks that it would be easy to get onto my phone for listening while walking? I liked Plum Village but all of their dharma talks seem to require you to have the app open and in video mode, so it's not great for what I'm going for. https://zenstudiespodcast.com/ I know these can just be downloaded as files and played with anything that plays mp3.
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Aug 28, 2022 00:02
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echinopsis posted:forgive me for maybe a simple or ignorant question. I would think not, while I agree the mind is brand new at every instant I don't think that's the reincarnation refrcend. Forgive my dumb analogy ~ your life essence is more like a stream and when you die it goes into a larger body, when reborn a stream beginning, I believe this happens instantly, other views are possible Edit: Er sorry I guess kinda kept to reincarnation but necessarily rebirth, is there a difference? Virgil Vox fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Aug 28, 2022 |
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Aug 28, 2022 07:53
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the way I understand things myself is that each thought is something like an ego of itself, it rises, comes to the front, and then is somewhat hijacked by the next thought/ego ad nauseumBeowulfs_Ghost posted:Yes, it can. In my opinion, this is the most useful way to think of it. nice it's the process in which attempted non-identification with thought is a process toward ending the cycle of rebirth
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Aug 28, 2022 11:21
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Nessus posted:Unrelated question for me, a local herbivore: Are there any good dharma talks that it would be easy to get onto my phone for listening while walking? I liked Plum Village but all of their dharma talks seem to require you to have the app open and in video mode, so it's not great for what I'm going for. You can download the audio in MP3 format of many Plum Village dharma talks from their website here: https://plumvillage.org/podcasts/dharma-talks/ They also podcast their dharma talks on several of the popular podcast services like Apple Podcast and Spotify, but I don't use these so I couldn't tell you much about going that way. Speaking of Plum Village dharma talks, I heard one recently that has stuck with me, and I've already listened to it a couple of times from start to finish. It's Br. Phap Linh, and the subject is Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness and Plum Village Practice. If the subject interests anyone, I highly recommend it. Plum Village also not too long ago made a significant addition to their precept on True Love, adding the line: "Recognizing the diversity of human experience, I am committed not to discriminate against any form of gender identity or sexual orientation." I think this is the first major change to the formal practice made since Thich Nhat Hanh died earlier this year, too.
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Aug 28, 2022 12:48
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on that note, are there any other reposititories of short guided meditations in the vein of Plum Village? i recently had my first morning meditation session with a coworker recently and i would like to keep the ball rolling, but i have already explored every single meditation there so i know there will be an end to it someday i mean, guess there's an end to everything? but also not. ya get me
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Aug 28, 2022 17:07
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catgirlgenius posted:on that note, are there any other reposititories of short guided meditations in the vein of Plum Village? become your own guide! there's nothing wrong with guided meditation, but also, there's nothing you need that you aren't already. the best guide in the universe is the good old inhale, exhale, and you're never without it. miraculous! then if you find more guided meditations that suit you, that's lovely, but not required.
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Aug 28, 2022 17:24
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yeah, coming to think of it, i left guided meditations behind as an everyday practice because it felt like an unnecessary reliance on something external. i might be doing my coworker a disservice by fostering that kind of reliance. if nothing else, i can help guide. thanks!
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Aug 28, 2022 17:57
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I misread the original question a bit it looks like, but just sitting quietly together is great, too. I wouldn't worry about reliance in the early goings, the most important thing is just to keep practicing however they're able to. Nice thing about guided meditations is there's usually no shelf life to them, you can reuse them endlessly! Body scanning for example, has plenty of benefits whether they've done it once or a hundred times 
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Aug 28, 2022 18:00
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