(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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i say swears online posted:also lol the part i quoted seems like the most inefficient industrial navy policy possible It was incredibly inefficient. The economies of Australia, Canada and New Zealand were largely dependent on maritime trade. It therefore made sense that these dominions should play their part in the protection of their trade routes, and in the maritime defence of their own territories. In time of war, these fledgling dominion navies could also support the Royal Navy, particularly in the defence of these same vital sea lanes. There was a realization in 1909 that the UK was in danger of losing the naval arms race with Germany. This led to the offer of financial assistance to the Admiralty from Australia and Canada, or alternatively the creation of Dominion naval forces, capable of supporting the Royal Navy in time of war. At the time both Australia and Canada maintained small naval forces for the purposes of fishery protection, coastal defence and maritime policing. At the Imperial Conference held in London in 1909, the governments of both dominions expressed their willingness to create their own seagoing navies. It’s the “willingness” that would prove a problem. Take Canada: When the RCN was founded in 1910 it was felt that it should consist of at least one heavy cruiser, four light cruisers and six destroyers. This force though had to be built and there were no slipways of sufficient size in Canada, nor could Canada produce naval guns or armour plate. To get it started, the British lent the Canadians two old cruisers to allow the Canadians to train sailors on larger vessels. However, a change of government in Canada meant that the ambitious plans for the fleet were abandoned, and instead the RCN was limited to just the two (donated, free) cruisers, two patrol vessels and two submarines. In 1918 the cruisers and submarines had been withdrawn from active service, and the remaining two patrol boats were earmarked for decommissioning. In 1920 the Royal Navy gave the RCN another light cruiser as well as two destroyers. However, post-war budget cuts in Canada led to this cruiser being decommissioned as well in 1922. The Royal Navy replaced the destroyers during the late 1920s, but it was the early 1930s before the fleet began to expand again, after a decade of neglect. In 1931 two RCN destroyers were completed in Britain, and commissioned into the fleet – the first warships built specifically for it. In World War Two, the fall of Singapore meant that Australia and New Zealand were cut off from the Eastern Fleet. Then the Japanese attacked into the Indian Ocean and the British were forced to withdraw out of range, not straying far from India or Ceylon. The UK would therefore need Canada’s help in fighting their way back into the Pacific when they returned to the theatre. The absence of the UK didn’t just hurt them diplomatically and politically in India, Burma and Malaya, though it effectively ended the Empire, Australia and New Zealand also felt they had been abandoned to the Japanese and so became much closer to America. In Canada, the priority was the safe passage of ships across the Atlantic Ocean, or the eastern seaboard of North America. This meant that while the RCN was keen to counter the threat posed by the Japanese in the Pacific, the real threat came from German U-boats operating in the North Atlantic. Not only did this mean larger naval warships such as cruisers were less important to the fleet than destroyers and escort vessels, but Canada’s limited naval resources were also concentrated on the east coast rather than the west. It was only when the crisis of the Battle of the Atlantic had passed that the RCN was willing to play its part in the Pacific War. While the addition of two Canadian cruisers to the Allied fleets would make little difference in terms of naval power, the Canadian government saw this commitment as a useful diplomatic tool. To quote a phrase used to describe Canada’s involvement in the Pacific war “The Canadian sailors viewed things differently.” Shortly before the defeat of Germany, it was decided that only volunteers would be used to fight the Japanese. The crew of the Canadian cruiser Uganda, which was already deployed with the Eastern Fleet in the Pacific, were given the chance to vote on whether or not they would continue the war against Japan. On 7 May 1945 two-thirds of Uganda’s crew decided not to volunteer to fight the Japanese. They considered that their ‘hostilities only’ commitment had ceased following the German surrender, which had been signed earlier that day. The result was a huge embarrassment for the RCN, which had no option but to send the cruiser home, to be re-crewed by volunteers. The issue of naval discipline and tradition is complex (Rum, Sodomy and the Lash), but a historian has summarized the situation as “The Canadian navy simply tended to have a more pragmatic approach to service life, and to naval rules and regulations. Much of this stemmed from a less rigid social hierarchy in civilian life, and a more tolerant naval one in the fleet“ To be more blunt, by cutting corners on maintaining a large interwar navy (as promised), Canada had a fleet that comprised of a handful of pre-war Officers and Senior NCOs and a lot of “hostilities only” Junior Enlisted men. They were unused to life in large ships, which has a very different routine, is more formal and disciplined, and has many more Officers compared to what they were used to. The two cruisers only entered service towards the end of the war, and the sailors coming on from the corvettes in the Atlantic resented being sent to the big ships: “They [the crew] were all corvette men, and if they were half a mind whether they wanted to [join the ship], as soon as they got there they wished they hadn’t. For one thing it was bloody hot. The other thing was they never arrived with the proper kit. Most of them had never even worn a proper uniform in their whole naval career.” Uganda had been damaged in British service before being given to Canada and was undergoing refit in Charleston. As you might have read about the latest American supercarrier, too much time in the yard is very bad for crews. According to Uganda’s medical officer: “It was noticeable that the attitude of the ship’s company improved as soon as the ship left the refit yard, where the presence of dockyard mateys and the constant turmoil and dirt offered no incentive to cleanliness of ship or person, or to orderliness of mind ... This, plus the lack of healthy and varied recreation was to a large degree responsible for the high incidence of exposure to, and development of, venereal disease.” Still, the ship won commendations for fire support and defending against kamikaze attack in the Pacific, but when they were given the chance to vote on it, their part in the war was done. It was later renamed HMCS Quebec, which seems appropriate.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:05
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:45 |
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It seems that Britain was basically grifted at every opportunity by their non-Indian commonwealth subjects from the turn of the 20th century onwards. Dear lord, a Canadian cruiser just deciding "nah we're done" and going home in the middle of a war is hilarious.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:19
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Well the white dominions were a place for the anglo saxon race to expand away from the grimy life in industrial blighty. All funded with the fun bits of distilled human misery collected into profit.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:24
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that canada and australia arer still parts of the commonwealth after ww2 is such a bitchmade fact. egypt led the way and they pussed out
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Aug 27, 2022 20:28
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How did that work out for everyone involved.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:30
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i say swears online posted:that canada and australia arer still parts of the commonwealth after ww2 is such a bitchmade fact. egypt led the way and they pussed out They want to kiss Brenda on the lips for all perpetuity, OP.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:30
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Tankbuster posted:How did that work out for everyone involved. are you saying nasser and eisenhower were wrong? if so i'm 
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Aug 27, 2022 20:31
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i say swears online posted:are you saying nasser and eisenhower were wrong? if so i'm Anthony Eden Did Nothing Wrong!
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Aug 27, 2022 20:32
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No, I am just saying the commonwealth at this point is an avenue for playing sports and having a funky name for an embassy.
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Aug 27, 2022 20:32
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i mean i think we're in agreement that a multilateral south asia in ~1900 would be a much better place to be than under current historical circumstances totally hands-off from colonial direction iunno when the suez would have truly opened but economic pressures would have probably mandated it global capitalism or not
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Aug 27, 2022 20:40
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There’s a longer article here, Canada’s Cruiser Squadron, but the gist of naval and industrial policy seems to be that there was no way to get the Dominions to meet their commitments: “English-speaking Conservatives derided the Laurier bill as not doing enough to support Britain, while French-speaking Nationalists feared it would drag Canada into all of Britain’s wars and lead to conscription to man the ships and shore establishment. Progress came slowly; the Royal Navy transferred two ancient cruisers to the Canadians for training but no orders came for the five cruisers as debate erupted over where they should be built. Pro-British jingoists, spurred by Vickers-Armstrong, wanted them ordered immediately in British yards while others insisted that Canadian spending should generate Canadian jobs.” “Robert Borden, the Conservative leader, scorned Laurier’s proposal as a “tin pot navy” (despite the presence of his cousin, Sir Frederick Borden, in the Liberal cabinet as Minister of Militia and Defence). The Tories ran their 1911 campaign in favor of simply paying Britain to build more dreadnoughts, as well as a harsh stand against Laurier’s proposed free trade agreement with the United States. Those positions, and a virulently racist “White Canada” anti-immigrant message, brought Borden into office and scuttled Laurier’s cruisers.” “Borden’s bill faced stiff opposition in the Canadian Parliament, which objected to a straight cash grant of Canadian money that would create no Canadian jobs. Borden terminated debate on the bill, the first time a prime minster had invoked that power, but the Liberal-dominated shot it down two weeks later.” “Borden’s overreach assured that while New Zealand and Australia each provided a battle cruiser and the Federated Malay States funded a Queen Elizabeth-class dreadnought, Canada made no meaningful contribution to the Royal Navy before the First World War broke out.” It’s all fighting over shipyards and contracts, with nationalists and Pro-British partisans at each other’s throats. The same thing happened in Australia and New Zealand, and very few ships were actually built. e: Worth nothing the exact same thing happened with Canada’s most recent naval order and the one being proposed now. Yards in Quebec, BC and the Maritimes all have lobbyists and politicians fighting to have the orders placed there, there is US pressure to give the order to American shipyards, and France and South Korea have undercut all of them by promising to build the ships at something like half the cost. The result will likely be we don’t actually meet our “required obligations to Partner Nations” at least not in the Pacific. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 21:27 on Aug 27, 2022 |
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Aug 27, 2022 21:25
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mila kunis posted:this guy's a russian nationalist and whines a lot about the ussr stomping russian chauvinism but the thread did bring up a pretty big point you should make anytime any liberal bitch cries about soviet imperialism the RWA guys are the exact kind of dipshit russian nationalist that caused the USSR to collapse in the first place.
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Aug 27, 2022 21:27
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Frosted Flake posted:e: Worth nothing the exact same thing happened with Canada’s most recent naval order and the one being proposed now. Yards in Quebec, BC and the Maritimes all have lobbyists and politicians fighting to have the orders placed there, there is US pressure to give the order to American shipyards, and France and South Korea have undercut all of them by promising to build the ships at something like half the cost. The result will likely be we don’t actually meet our “required obligations to Partner Nations” at least not in the Pacific. Oh yeah, the ROK has a very competitive shipbuilding industry.
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Aug 27, 2022 21:29
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Tankbuster posted:Oh yeah, the ROK has a very competitive shipbuilding industry. France made us a great offer with the Mistral ships they built for Russia as well. I think Egypt got them (???). But it will probably go to yards connected to Irving, SNC-Lavalin, BAE and Bombardier.
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Aug 27, 2022 21:35
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Lady Militant posted:the RWA guys are the exact kind of dipshit russian nationalist that caused the USSR to collapse in the first place. yeah, they're saying that from a "moronic soviets, russia uber alles" angle
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Aug 27, 2022 22:08
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Was it this thread or the Ukraine thread that posted some crevice of US intelligence predicting that backing bogus elections in Korea would lead to devastating war (which we did anyways), a Certain Other Thread reminded me of this
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Aug 27, 2022 22:17
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Tankbuster posted:its really weird because in south asia trans people are accepted more than gay people. Its not good if you are LGBT and living in the subcontinent but then its not good if you are living in the subcontinent in general and don't have a huge amount of money with which you can buy your way out of the stifling social mores of the last victorians on earth. Trans people are more accepted than Ls Gs or Bs in China as well. The landmark case for transgender non-discrimination ordinance did not take place in Shanghai or another more cosmopolitan city, but in Guiyang, which is a hick town (at only 6 million pop.) in one of the poorest provinces.
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Aug 27, 2022 23:35
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Horseshoe theory posted:You do realize that on a Federal level LGBT rights were basically pushed through by judicial fiat (mainly due to Anthony Kennedy who was shockingly not-lovely on LGBT) rather than legislative enshrinement (that is, substantially all of the legislators at best were indifferent to the issue and at worst are reactionary shitheads) and that it will soon be reversed and de jure suppress the legislation on the state levels due to the Supremacy Clause, right? californians supported proposition 8 which banned gay marriage in 2008 when california was one of only two states to legalize gay marriage and required judicial fiat going all the way up to the supreme court to undo the constitutional amendment in 2013 lol
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Aug 27, 2022 23:44
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Frosted Flake posted:Wait are you guys not even talking about Singapore anymore? everyone there knows those buff US navy dudes in their rent-a-naval-dock are the least dependable thing on the island, especially after the ukraine shitshow
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Aug 27, 2022 23:51
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afaik the marines went on foot from colombo to beijing and i've never heard anything to dispute this. unrelated, i will block anyone replying to this extremely correct post
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Aug 27, 2022 23:56
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comedyblissoption posted:i think people forget obergefell was only 7 years ago left coast best coast if only it could slip the surly bonds of the southeast and become the progressive utopia foretold in the scrolls of the prophecy
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Aug 28, 2022 01:36
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Frosted Flake posted:There’s a longer article here, Canada’s Cruiser Squadron, but the gist of naval and industrial policy seems to be that there was no way to get the Dominions to meet their commitments: They also have some serious demographics issues that they'll have to deal with in the next couple of decades, so in 50 years they could be the world's strongest superpower or they could be the USSR 2.0. I mean they'll need to start a war in the not distant future, so the outcome of whatever that is should be telling.
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Aug 28, 2022 02:06
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i say swears online posted:They also have some serious demographics issues that they'll have to deal with in the next couple of decades, so in 50 years they could be the world's strongest superpower or they could be the USSR 2.0. I mean they'll need to start a war in the not distant future, so the outcome of whatever that is should be telling. did you quote the wrong post or
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Aug 28, 2022 02:28
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it's a syq, i quoted a post at random and apologize
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Aug 28, 2022 02:34
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Tankbuster posted:its really weird because in south asia trans people are accepted more than gay people. Its not good if you are LGBT and living in the subcontinent but then its not good if you are living in the subcontinent in general and don't have a huge amount of money with which you can buy your way out of the stifling social mores of the last victorians on earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJEwrxL4yY&t=77s
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Aug 28, 2022 02:40
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"CHINA MILITARY SPENDING HAS GROWN 25 TIMES!!!" says fair-and-balanced japanese professor on Channel News
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Aug 28, 2022 02:53
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https://twitter.com/NOTSeanMcCarthy/status/1563539995948126209
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Aug 28, 2022 03:22
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TRUMP learned from Jon Voight (trying) to sell the NOC lists!
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Aug 28, 2022 03:26
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that makes me like trump more not less
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Aug 28, 2022 03:27
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yellowcar posted:that makes me like trump more not less 
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Aug 28, 2022 04:49
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drat, trump really was the harm reduction candidate
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Aug 28, 2022 07:55
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Cerebral Bore posted:drat, trump really was the harm reduction candidate Always was
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Aug 28, 2022 08:03
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Trump getting random cia agents offed is funny but doing it in service of petty vendettas is cringe
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Aug 28, 2022 08:08
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that makes it even funnier imo
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Aug 28, 2022 08:09
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indigi posted:Trump getting random cia agents offed is funny but doing it in service of petty vendettas is cringe flip your camera forward 
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Aug 28, 2022 08:28
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andoid user supports Trump, sun rises in the east
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Aug 28, 2022 08:31
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Working hard or hardly working? https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/michelle-bachelet-08252022175528.html quote:UN human rights chief says overdue report on abuses in Xinjiang still not ready
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Aug 28, 2022 08:44
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 quote:Rainmakers to the rescue   rfa posted:Hard power vs. soft power
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Aug 28, 2022 08:49
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ah yes the "muh international community" talking point
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Aug 28, 2022 08:58
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:45 |
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what's the deal with battlecruisers tho
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Aug 28, 2022 09:27
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